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HiveGuard wrote:
A lot of really cool ideas in this thread. My two cents:

Just as a friendly FYI, I have horrible grammar and often use the wrong there/their you're/your. If we all help each other we'll all be a little better.

It's asking for a lot but let regen be able to heal more than 1 wound a turn.

This would be fun, perhaps you'd keep rolling until you fail but everytime you succeed you subtract 1 from the roll. So 50% for 0 wounds, 33.33% for 1 wound, 13.89% for 2, and 2.78% for 3.

Either this or throw regen on a psychic power.

 Lobukia wrote:

HiveGuard wrote:
A lot of really cool ideas in this thread. My two cents:

Just as a friendly FYI, I have horrible grammar and often use the wrong there/their you're/your. If we all help each other we'll all be a little better.

Yikes! That's what I get for typing quickly. Thank you, random citizen!

I've toyed with letting my nid players choose a hive fleet chapter tactic... consider it a homebrew supplement

Kraken, Divide and Consume: if your opponent is using an allied detachment the survival instincts and terror at facing the Hive Fleet have sown seeds of dissension. Allies are treated as one step worse, but not below Desperate Allies, for the duration of the game.

Behemoth, Head Hunters: known for removing strong leaders, the Hive Fleet goes for the head. When fighting against the enemy warlord or a unit containing that model, all tyranids gain hatred and rage.

Gorgon, Supreme Adaptability: The Hive Fleet quickly alters it's brood to counter resistance. Pick an enemy codex, all tyranids gain preferred enemy against that detachment.

Leviathan, the Shadow Grows: As the warp fades and tangible power dwindles it heralds the coming of the Hive Fleet. All enemy leadership is reduced by 1.

Hydra, Rapid Awakening: Able to mobilize with fearsome speed, the Hive Fleet moves it's broods faster than expected. Pick d3 units before deployment to gain infiltrate.

Naga, Resilence: Often thought defeated, but arising again the Hive Fleet is tough to truly put down. All troops gain FNP.

If your going to gain any traction on this the changes must be very slight. No one is going to give any credence to more than 3-5 alterations.

- FOC shenanigans (Self ally or simply more slots) True wishlisting would be to remove their FOC altogether and simply allow them to select whatever they want.

- Cheaper biomorphs for all non MC's. At the most 1 point for gaunts/ stealers.

- Let all Genestealers deploy similar to Ygmarl's, still no assault, but able to bring pressure. Otherwise let them deploy as per their new formation; maybe give them stealth. Give Lictors the same defensive benefit of Deathleaper.

- Maybe some limited form of run + assault.

- Synapse and SITW same range.

You don't need to do much if anything simply because the books is competitive currently against Space Marines, Chaos and Dark Angels, not to mention all books 5th and earlier. As of right now it has difficulty with Markerlights, Grimore and Codex: Eldar. If you do too much your going to be on a nerf/buff rollercoaster with every book.

I just spent a good deal of time coming up with my revisions/version of the Tyranid codex... let me know what you guys think!

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/576691.page

Not a nid player but fluff wise would it really be too much to ask to give tyrant/hive guard a 2+ save, they're meant to be the best armoured nids there are for God's sake!

Would it help to allow a nid player to ally with the old 'dex?

 Sasori wrote:
There is a lot of stuff we could do to fix it, I'm going to start with the overview, and I'll update this post later when I get into specefics.

1. Overwhelming Swarm- The Tyranids do not ally with other races, but instead bring and overwhelming numbers. To address this, the Tyranid FOC slot instead follows this: 1-3 HQ 2-8 Troop, 0-4 Elite, 0-4 FA, 0-4 Heavy.

I think Allying with themselves is better, because it requires an additional two troop choices in order to get the additional HQ, Elite, FA and HS.

 Sasori wrote:

2. Change the IB table, to make it even more punishing, by removing the 6th result, and having the 1st option on 1-4 roll. When in Synapse, models have certain benefits by being in Synapse range. IB: Feed gain Rage. IB: Lurk Gain Stealth. IB: Hunt gain PE. Note, this will not affect any synapse creatures, or creatures without the IB rule.

I like the USRs you chose, but I don't think IB should be any worse than it already is. I'm not in favor of making this change, but would rather see the tables go 1,2-5,6 on the rolls.

 Sasori wrote:

3. Shadows range increases when Synapse range does.

Agreed.

 Sasori wrote:

4. Tyranids are able to benefit from more than 2 CC combat weapons at the same time. They still gain the +1 attack from two CC biomorphs.

I'll go one step further: Tyranids should benefit from the same CC rules that all other models in the game do. A pair of scything talons? Gives you the same +1 attack that a pair of lightning claws does. Two pairs of scything talons? How does +3A sound? It would certainly give Tyranids back the devastating CC reputation they deserve.

Regarding Mycetic Spores, what about the old Mycetic Assault from Apocalypse, instead? The unit can deep strike, and until the start of their next turn they get a 5+ cover save.

All I can say to this is "Welcome to the world DA have been in for the last year"

Honestly all I want is the 4th edition Codex back.

 xole wrote:
Honestly all I want is the 4th edition Codex back.

With the new units (Hiveguard with their 5th ed. stats), of course.

I think a lot of these ideas are unreasonable and frankly bad given the points changes [mostly reductions] and shift in 6th edition codex towards removing weapons that ignore all armor saves, and reducing eternal warrior. Almost all multiwound models, of which there are a lot more this edition to previous in other codexes, do not benefit from eternal warrior. It shouldn't happen for tyranids to see lots of eternal warrior Some of the ideas are good but many are OTT

The idea for being able to pick a hive fleet type is very interesting.

- Let Lictors / Deathleaper assault from deepstriking

- Grant altered FOC since nids cannot benefit from Allies.
- If they take +1 HQ, and +1 troop may optionally add +1 Elite, +1 Troop, +1 Fast Attack, +1 Heavy support

- Alpha warriors can be purchased as 2 per slot. Give alpha wariors a wings upgrade and allow their special rule to benefit shrikes if they have wings.

- Allow certain Broods to buy "mycetic assault" Lets them deploy by a spore for +x points (suggest 30 points) Broods cannot be larger than 20 wounds of models, may have attached ICs included in that wound pool. Spore has no model, breaks up when it lands.

 Mythantor wrote:
All I can say to this is "Welcome to the world DA have been in for the last year"

The world we have been in for the last 4 years.

I wish the Haruspex wasn't so awful. Beast-like movement and Rampage would've been cool. I understand WS3… it's not a highly-trained organism, but it is supposed to be a lawn mower. The tongue attack is a let-down, too. I much rather would've liked to have seen a grappling-effect or an enhanced Precision Shot effect. Have you ever seen frogs hunt prey with their tongues? They're pretty freaking accurate.

Drop IB and go with something like SM chapter tactics or IG orders for being in synapse and lower non-synapse unit leadership a point or two (but can use synapse creature's Ld when in range)

Change hormagaunts and Termagants from infantry to beasts.

Turn the tervigon (I think that's the name) into a transport, up its movement rate, drastically reduce its points, remove its spawn gaunts ability ( but can still hold 30, no re-embarking), retain its gaunt buff ability and remove the 'kills all gaunts on death'.

Man alive, I have no idea how long ago my last post was here. Four years? Six? Yikes.

At any rate, the release of the new 'Nid codex has awoken my old love of the Great Devourer and I'm starting to dust off the old models and figure out what this whole 5th edit... what? We're in 6th now? My slumber has been great indeed. Figuring out this whole new *6th* edition thing then. (Heck, I barely stuck a toe in 4th. I'm old!)

So, a few thoughts. First, Tyranids should be able to ally with themselves. All other lists have an ally, which gives them a raw size advantage over the bugs who, by thunder, should be the swarm of swarms. It's a small but simple thing: Since they cannot ally with anyone else, they ally with themselves. Taa-daa.

Some Tyranid-inclinded fortications would be nice. Some kind of "Birthing chamber" for producing new 'gants, a "hive" for defensive purposes not unlike ants, some 'spore cloud' things that make poisonous clouds, it shouldn't be hard. Us ethat biomass in neat and interesting ways. I don't know enough about 6th edition to know what all these would be yet, but since the idea of mechanical guns and big metal walls isn't very fluffy, give them similar stuff that serves a role.

Let the Shadow of the Warp extend to a model's Synapse range. Small fix, easy to remember.

From there, small changes add up.

Genestealers need to have Flesh Hooks as an option. They should come with Stealth. Cheaper would also be nice or, failing taht, an option for higher armor. They're like Lions, quietly prowling forward, staying low in the high grass until they're ready to pounce. Make 'em scary again!

Warriors are fine, weirdly, but some more weapon options are vital. In particular, Venom Canons going to Assault 2 or 3 instead of Blast, and some kind of Range 24", STr 5, AP 4 Assault 2-3 gun. Giving an Aci-like "flamer" option, again Str 5 AP 4, would also be nice. The addition of an AP 4 melee weapon is also crucial. Heck, make Boneswords AP 4, Rending, and ditch the instakill thing (save that for Bonesabres) while dropping the price and you solve a ton of problems.

Hormagaunts can be saved with one flick of a switch: Any number of models can exchange their scything talons for rending claws for +5 pts/model.

Swarms... Swarms need a lot of work. Troops that can't take objectives? Bad call. At the very least they need Stealth. A bunch of small things that crawl through tiny openings and scuttle through holes should be harder to push out of cover. A point reduction's also in order. (Give 'em Stealth and drop the cost to 10 points per model, while flying Rippers are 15 each but don't have Stealth? Fair!)

These are minor change sto correct some oversights.

If you want a RADICAL redesign, however, I'd suggest something akin to the Imperial Guard, where you take a 'Command Pod' of Warriors, then "Support pods" or Gants and/or Gaunts, with an optional selection of Rippers and/or Carnifexes. Heck, take a few of the Elite choices and make them 0-1 add-ons for the Warriors, like a Zoanthrope who can handle being a relay station and do brainblasting, a Venomthrope who can defend the "herd", or a 'pet' Pyrovore that gets added to the Warrior unit and lopes along like a puppy until ordered to go vomit some heat on a target. This give sthose models protection against being simply picked off by ranged fire and encourages the look of a classic Tyranid force, where Warriors drive waves of small bugs along. (These unit pods would be smaller than the current 10-30 models, mind you. Probably 6-18.) ... You then have other slots for Genestealers (Hive mind? Who needs that?) and the 'gant/momma combination platter.

But that one's a pretty huge change and unlikely to go through.

Wakshaani wrote:


Hormagaunts can be saved with one flick of a switch: Any number of models can exchange their scything talons for rending claws for +5 pts/model.

So you make them more expensive subpar Daemonettes?

 Tyran wrote:

Wakshaani wrote:


Hormagaunts can be saved with one flick of a switch: Any number of models can exchange their scything talons for rending claws for +5 pts/model.

So you make them more expensive subpar Daemonettes?

I have no idea what the new Demonette statline is. The +5 points is the standard listed cost for swapping scything talons for Rending Claws, so that's what I suggested as an upgrade. Take 20, give Rending to half, and treat the other ten as ablative wounds for the run in for the same cost as 30 normal Gaunts, who, let's be honest, aren't going to do any damage normally.

I admit that I could be wrong, or overstating them, but, making the ol' college try.

Wakshaani wrote:

 Tyran wrote:

Wakshaani wrote:


Hormagaunts can be saved with one flick of a switch: Any number of models can exchange their scything talons for rending claws for +5 pts/model.

So you make them more expensive subpar Daemonettes?

I have no idea what the new Demonette statline is. The +5 points is the standard listed cost for swapping scything talons for Rending Claws, so that's what I suggested as an upgrade. Take 20, give Rending to half, and treat the other ten as ablative wounds for the run in for the same cost as 30 normal Gaunts, who, let's be honest, aren't going to do any damage normally.

I admit that I could be wrong, or overstating them, but, making the ol' college try.

Their statline is ws5 s3 t3 i5 a2
They have rending, fleet, the 5++ that every daemon has and they run d6+3" And they cost 9 points each.
They also have the pseudo fearless of the Daemons, and fear IIRC.

 Tyran wrote:

Wakshaani wrote:

 Tyran wrote:

Wakshaani wrote:


Hormagaunts can be saved with one flick of a switch: Any number of models can exchange their scything talons for rending claws for +5 pts/model.

So you make them more expensive subpar Daemonettes?

I have no idea what the new Demonette statline is. The +5 points is the standard listed cost for swapping scything talons for Rending Claws, so that's what I suggested as an upgrade. Take 20, give Rending to half, and treat the other ten as ablative wounds for the run in for the same cost as 30 normal Gaunts, who, let's be honest, aren't going to do any damage normally.

I admit that I could be wrong, or overstating them, but, making the ol' college try.

Their statline is ws5 s3 t3 i5 a2
They have rending, fleet, the 5++ that every daemon has and they run d6+3" And they cost 9 points each.
They also have the pseudo fearless of the Daemons, and fear IIRC.

Alright, in that case, hrm. You could reduce Hormagaunts to 4 points, matching Termagant cost (A tad stronger, but Feed is crippling while Lurk is survivable) and make Rending replacement 4 pts, thus a Rending Hormagaunt and a Devouring Termagant cost the same 8 pts.

Meanwhile, still trying to figure out the phrasing of a thing for Genestealers and Lictors. Something roughly like:



Pounce! If this unit begins the turn in cover and declares an assault against a unit within 6", the target unit must make a Pinning test before declaring a reaction to the charge.



In essence, the old Alien "Comes out of nowhere and creates panic" style of lurking attack. Leaderships are so high that this would rarely work, but sticking a -2 on there matches The Horror, and would be too strong for an ability. Of course, it's super short range and requires an assault from cover, so it's restricted, so maybe the -2 would be fine. Still thinking on that.

Spore Mines
Poison Mines - Instead of Frag Mines, a Biovore may fire Poison Mines.
Poison Mines may also be chosen instead of Frag Mines in the Fast Attack section.

As per Frag Mines, but replace the damage code as follows:
Str 1, AP -, Large Blast, Poison (6+), Residual Cloud
Detonating a Poison Mine will poison models struck by it on a 6+, lowered by one for each Poison Mine in the unit. (Thus, three spor mines is a 4+, while 5 or more is a 2+)
Residual Cloud - Leave a 5" Smoke terrain where the large blast was. Treat this as terrain which does not block LoS but provides a 5+ cover save. Remove all of your Residual Clouds at the start of your turn.
(The return of an old fave, but matching up with the current rules on mines. The residual cloud allows you to have advancing cover for your army as well, letting you have a chance to survive running across otherwise open terrain.)

Synaptic Detonation - As a shooting attack, any Synaptic Creature may command a spore mine to detonate. Place a Large Blast marker over the spore mine, resolving the damage as if it had detonated itself in melee. (Remove all models in the unit as a casualty, each after the first adds +1 Strength or Poison, etc.)
(More synergetic work with Tyranid, giving the hive mind the old ability to set off mines again. It counts as a shooting attack for the model that triggers it, however.)


Weapon tweaks
Spike Rifle Range 24", Str 3, AP 5, Heavy 1
This gives the Termagants one weapon that allows them to stay in cover near a distant objective and fire back, but going with Heavy instead of Assault counterbalances the extra range. A small unit of Termagants could then at least swap licks with an Imperial Guard squad. That's a low bar to jump, but hey.

Flamespurt Range 6", Str 3, AP 5, Autohit, Ignores Cover
Any number of Gargoyles can replace their Fleshborer with a Flamespurt for free.
The old "Small flamer template" is gone, but this works nearly the same. It's essentially a 6" template that hits a single model, thus the autohit and ignores cover.

[B\Venom Cannon[/B]
Replace "Assault 1, Blast" with "Assault 3" and you're solid.

Scything Talons
When making an assault, a model armed with scything talons may reroll attack rolls of a 1.
When making an assault, a model armed with two sets of scything talons may reroll all missed attacks.
(The usual 'may reroll only once, must accept the results of the second roll' things obviously apply.)




I'd love to replace two of the Warlord Traits as well.
2 - They Mostly Come Out at Night. Mostly
If the Night Fighting rules were in effect, you may choose to activate them on a 2+ rather than a 4+ when asked to roll.
If the Night Fighting rules were not in effect, they now are.
(Tyranid use the cover of darkness to hamper enemy firing, since their own up close and personal style doesn't wory about it.)

5- Without Number
The opposing army suffers -1 Leadership for the duration of the game.
(Wave after wave of Tyranid attacks wear at the resolve of even the strongest foe. As the horrors of war mount, resistance crumbles.)

Maybe some more in a while, but I'd like to discuss some of these first, see how the wording can be improved.

Wakshaani wrote:
Snip

Nice, but I would add something to the Poison mines:
Enemy units under the cloud gain shrouded but have their bs reduced to 1 (to represent the fact that they can't see anything inside the cloud).

Also I would like to see the return of the Acid mines.

I'll be honest, where I work/play we have a couple of Nid players. They are quite happy with the new codex and they're brutal to play against. They are dumbfounded as to what people are complaining about.

People are making (in my opinion at least,) a mistake comparing them to Eldar/Tau. Those armies are brokenly overpowered especially when allied as so. Compared to the other balanced 6th ed Codexs, the Tyranids do really well.

There is a lot of good stuff in the codex that easily balances out the bad. Seems to me people are complaining because unlike the Eldar/Tau, there is no immediately obvious deathstar unit.

The Tyranid codex is a BALANCED codex. This is how it should be. Eldar/Tau are an abberation in 6th ed.

chnmmr wrote:
I'll be honest, where I work/play we have a couple of Nid players. They are quite happy with the new codex and they're brutal to play against. They are dumbfounded as to what people are complaining about.

People are making (in my opinion at least,) a mistake comparing them to Eldar/Tau. Those armies are brokenly overpowered especially when allied as so. Compared to the other balanced 6th ed Codexs, the Tyranids do really well.

There is a lot of good stuff in the codex that easily balances out the bad. Seems to me people are complaining because unlike the Eldar/Tau, there is no immediately obvious deathstar unit.

The Tyranid codex is a BALANCED codex. This is how it should be. Eldar/Tau are an abberation in 6th ed.

Eh no.
While yes people exaggerated how bad the codex is, it is still a codex that has most of its units as subpar.
Swarmlord? overcosted
Warriors and Genestealers? lame unless you want some troops that don't need synapse.
Warrior prime? WTF Where that 50% increase in cost came from?
Lictors? cheaper, still without being able to charge from reserves they are hardly going to make it to assault.
WTF happened to scything talons? the lost of re-rolls is lame, specially to units like the Trygons
Tervigons were nerfed to hard.
Hive Guard? lost a bs4 and gained 5 points WTF?
The lost of spores hurts a lot.
Haruspex is lame.
Pyrovore is still the most lame unit in the codex.

Also most of the good units dominate one slot or are glass cannons so you need to bring several.

And the most horrible thing of the Codex? 90% of it is a copy-paste of the previous one.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also most of the biomorphs are useless.

 Tyran wrote:

Wakshaani wrote:
Snip

Nice, but I would add something to the Poison mines:
Enemy units under the cloud gain shrouded but have their bs reduced to 1 (to represent the fact that they can't see anything inside the cloud).

Also I would like to see the return of the Acid mines.

Acid Mines would have to be balanced against the others, which would be trickier. Again, off the top of my head:

Blast (instead of Large Blast), Armorbane

Strength of 5 base (+1 per additional model in the unit), AP 2

This makes them akin to the Acid Maw and other acid attacks (Str 5, AP 2), but a much smaller blast template. Armorbane to help get through tanks without making them overly powerful against troops (A Strength of 3 higher would inflict too many instakills, so, Armorbane instead.) You might have to increase the cost of the Biovore to take these, however.

Also note that this one does *not* negate cover! Acid splashes, but if it hits something before it gets to you, you can listen to that thing sizzle instead of your face. So, frags and poison ignore cover, frags do general damage, poison onl hurts models witha Toughness (but leaves a cloud behind to advance up through), while Acid is more focused on breaking armor.

Everybody loves Biovores.

(Also, I see that "Flamespurt" is taken by the Pyrovore's gun, which is silly. I do hereby rename its weapon "Pyrocannon" so that Gargoyles can keep "Flamespurt" as is proper.)

So, I've been thinking a bit more on weapons and weapon loadouts. Several of the ranged weapons need to be circulated better into more units, while the melee weapons often need a bump.

Assuming that the taking away of rerolls won't be changed, how about a small profile change for Scythes, and a small bump for Rending, to make them somewhat special?

Scything Talons/ Melee / Str (as user)/ AP 5
Monstrous Scything Talons/ Melee/ Str (as user)/ AP 4

Rending Claws/ Melee/ Str (as user)/ AP 4/ Rending
Monstrous Rending Claws/ Melee/ Str (as user)/ AP 3/ Rending

Now, while the attacks won't be more accurate, the addition of AP to scythes will speed games up a bit by tearing through armor on most basic troops, while Rending will punch through most elite troopers. Monsterous Creatures remain dangerous even if they don't Slam, letting them reap large swaths of normal troopers or concentrate to hammer singular tough ones.

(Costs of these items don't change, but having two sets of scythes would count as twin-linked, while two different melee weapons gives +1 attacks as normal.)

It's not a *huge* boost, but I think it'd be just enough to start making things scary. Genestealers being able to rip through Tau armor like butter, for instance, suddenly makes them a threat, even if they're squishy in return. Neither boost changes much against Marines (aside from monstrous rending claws), but that's where the Tyranids are currently pretty solid already.

Thoughts on this? I'll move to ranged weapons in a bit... taht one'll take a while.

Wakshaani wrote:
So, I've been thinking a bit more on weapons and weapon loadouts. Several of the ranged weapons need to be circulated better into more units, while the melee weapons often need a bump.

Assuming that the taking away of rerolls won't be changed, how about a small profile change for Scythes, and a small bump for Rending, to make them somewhat special?

Scything Talons/ Melee / Str (as user)/ AP 5
Monstrous Scything Talons/ Melee/ Str (as user)/ AP 4

Rending Claws/ Melee/ Str (as user)/ AP 4/ Rending
Monstrous Rending Claws/ Melee/ Str (as user)/ AP 3/ Rending

Now, while the attacks won't be more accurate, the addition of AP to scythes will speed games up a bit by tearing through armor on most basic troops, while Rending will punch through most elite troopers. Monsterous Creatures remain dangerous even if they don't Slam, letting them reap large swaths of normal troopers or concentrate to hammer singular tough ones.

(Costs of these items don't change, but having two sets of scythes would count as twin-linked, while two different melee weapons gives +1 attacks as normal.)

It's not a *huge* boost, but I think it'd be just enough to start making things scary. Genestealers being able to rip through Tau armor like butter, for instance, suddenly makes them a threat, even if they're squishy in return. Neither boost changes much against Marines (aside from monstrous rending claws), but that's where the Tyranids are currently pretty solid already.

Thoughts on this? I'll move to ranged weapons in a bit... taht one'll take a while.

Are you aware that MC already have ap2 attacks?

 Tyran wrote:

Are you aware that MC already have ap2 attacks?

It was my understanding that they only got those when Smashing, which cuts their attacks in half. Upon further review, this is incorrect. So, kindly ignore that second part. D'oh.

Sorry for the 3.5 month necro, but you may be interested in my Tyranid Fandex:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/594879.page