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For a long time there has been debate over which style of orky play is better. I have read and heard both sides but no one could show some real hard evidence.

In the next few pages you will see enough information to decide on your own. I am not going to post every single roll but I will put up a sample of what I did so you can see the math. Also I did not add the nobs rolls in as almost every ork player I know uses a nob in there boyz mob. That goes ditto for Big Shootas. This is just between the Shoota's and Choppa's.


Shoota's 1000 rolls with GW dice on a textured service Vs Choppa's 1000 rolls with GW dice on a textured surface.

Here is a sample of how I did it.

Shoota’s Vs Choppa’s

Shoota’s 10 round shooting Stage 1

1) 60 shots 20 hits 9 wounds
2) 60 shots 22 hits 11 wounds
3) 60 shots 20 hits 13 wounds
4) 60 shots 10 hits 4 wounds
5) 60 shots 16 hits 10 wounds
6) 60 shots 16 hits 9 wounds
7) 60 shots 23 hits 16 wounds
8) 60 shots 20 hits 6 wounds
9) 60 shots 22 hits 12 wounds
10) 60 shots 19 hits 11 wounds

Shoota’s 10 round assault.

1) Ork Shoota 58 attacks 26 hits 13 wounds
2) Ork Shoota 58 attacks 26 hits 11 wounds
3) Ork Shoota 58 attacks 28 hits 10 wounds
4) Ork Shoota 58 attacks 26 hits 10 wounds
5) Ork Shoota 58 attacks 26 hits 14 wounds
6) Ork Shoota 58 attacks 37 hits 18 wounds
7) Ork Shoota 58 attacks 31 hits 11 wounds
8) Ork Shoota 58 attacks 28 hits 17 wounds
9) Ork Shoota 58 attacks 31 hits 17 wounds
10) Ork Shoota 58 attacks 21 hits 13 wounds

Choppa’s 10 round shooting stage 1

1) 30 shots 11 hits 5 wounds
2) 30 shots 12 hits 6 wounds
3) 30 shots 10 hits 7 wounds
4) 30 shots 6 hits 2 wounds
5) 30 shots 12 hits 6 wounds
6) 30 shots 10 hits 5 wounds
7) 30 shots 12 hits 6 wounds
8) 30 shots 11 hits 6 wounds
9) 30 shots 5 hits 2 wounds
10) 30 shots 9 hits 4 wounds

Choppa’s 20 round assault stage 1

1) Ork Choppa 87 attacks 53 hits 23 wounds
2) Ork Choppa 87 attacks 45 hits 19 wounds
3) Ork Choppa 87 attacks 45 hits 25 wounds
4) Ork Choppa 87 attacks 41 hits 19 wounds
5) Ork Choppa 87 attacks 43 hits 22 wounds
6) Ork Choppa 87 attacks 53 hits 27 wounds
7) Ork Choppa 87 attacks 46 hits 22 wounds
8) Ork Choppa 87 attacks 42 hits 20 wounds
9) Ork Choppa 87 attacks 43 hits 16 wounds
10) Ork Choppa 87 attacks 46 hits 24 wounds

I then added up all the wounds caused and list them in the order I rolled them. Again here is just a sample, this time its a sample of 100

Shoota’s total wounds per 10 rounds

1) 256
2) 221
3) 237
4) 261
5) 265
6) 251
7) 333 (wow)
8) 248
9) 241
10) 281

Choppa’s total wounds per 10 rounds

1) 289
2) 356 (wow)
3) 272
4) 268
5) 251
6) 280
7) 270
8) 245
9) 297
10) 301


For the Grand total of:

Shoota's had 2503 wounds out of 1000 round's of shooting then assaulting.

Choppa's had 2891 wounds out of 1000 round's of shooing then assaulting.

Now to be honest I have no idea what these numbers mean in detail, but in a general term it looks like the choppas hedge out by about 10%

What's your thought?

The data would seem to indicate Orks are better at chopping than shooting. Who knew?

I agree choppas win if you get them in to the assault. But it usually takes a round or two to do that. While you are on your way to the assault, the shootas get to..well..shoot!

And I think that's why they are favored over the choppas. Additionally, if something goes awry and the opponent gets the charge on you, you have a stronger over watch.

Choppas are much less effective at 18".

This is just a numbers look at things. All of the "if's" and "and's" are eliminated and its just to show per model what the numbers are.

Remember Shootas will kill more before they get there BUT choppas kill more in combat so they would cause the enemy to flee and be run down.

I didn't add in ANY of those factors because its just too random. This is a vacuum look at Shoota's Vs Choppa's

Also, remember that the price point is the same for shootas and choppas

This isn't mathhammer, this is just fluff. Mathhammer would be looking at and playing to odds instead of just antecedal evidence.

That being said, there are a few things you missed:

Models that strike before orks in CC reducing your number of attacks (bigger effect on choppas)

Ongoing combat reducing your STR (bigger effect on choppas)

Overwatch Fire reducing your number of attacks (bigger effect on choppas)

Failed charges eliminating close combat entirely (bigger effect on choppas)

Casualties from shooting exaggerating the above - the the point of sometimes not wanting to shoot before charging at all! (bigger effect on choppas)

Bottom line for thirty boys on foot (which apparently this was) - Shootas can cause casualties sooner than choppas, which means they take less fire back, lose less orks and probably hit CC with just as many if not more attacks than choppas.

Also, they're slugga boyz, not choppa boys!

raverrn wrote:
This isn't mathhammer, this is just fluff. Mathhammer would be looking at and playing to odds instead of just antecedal evidence.

That being said, there are a few things you missed:

Models that strike before orks in CC reducing your number of attacks (bigger effect on choppas)

Ongoing combat reducing your STR (bigger effect on choppas)

Overwatch Fire reducing your number of attacks (bigger effect on choppas)

Failed charges eliminating close combat entirely (bigger effect on choppas)

Casualties from shooting exaggerating the above - the the point of sometimes not wanting to shoot before charging at all! (bigger effect on choppas)

Bottom line for thirty boys on foot (which apparently this was) - Shootas can cause casualties sooner than choppas, which means they take less fire back, lose less orks and probably hit CC with just as many if not more attacks than choppas.

Also, they're slugga boyz, not choppa boys!

Yep pretty much this ^

Sluggaz are better on paper, but this isnt paperhammer its warhammer and the enemy is trying to kill you too.

As a guy on Librarium Online once put it, and his math come out as them being about equal anyway, Shootas are the obvious choice as you'll be shooting far more often than you can assault.

In addition, shooting is more often risk free, because there's no danger of paying the price for biting off more than you can chew immediately- the only real exception is shooting before charging worsening your odds, but a smart player can work around this with split fire and distribution of run rolls and movement decisions.

raverrn wrote:
This isn't mathhammer, this is just fluff. Mathhammer would be looking at and playing to odds instead of just antecedal evidence.

That being said, there are a few things you missed:

Models that strike before orks in CC reducing your number of attacks (bigger effect on choppas)

Ongoing combat reducing your STR (bigger effect on choppas)

Overwatch Fire reducing your number of attacks (bigger effect on choppas)

Failed charges eliminating close combat entirely (bigger effect on choppas)

Casualties from shooting exaggerating the above - the the point of sometimes not wanting to shoot before charging at all! (bigger effect on choppas)

Bottom line for thirty boys on foot (which apparently this was) - Shootas can cause casualties sooner than choppas, which means they take less fire back, lose less orks and probably hit CC with just as many if not more attacks than choppas.

Also, they're slugga boyz, not choppa boys!

You have no evidence or numbers to follow your points. ALl you did was post up a bunch of what "ifs" and maybe "so's"

Prime example last game 30 shoots blasted away at 5 space marine for 2 turns and didnt even kill 1. 15 orks Choppas ran into the SAMEW exact squad and killed them all.

Half the boyz 300% results...

Choppa's and shoota's are different on paper BUT on the field there mathhammer PROVES beyond a shadow that they are virtually the same in combat.

osirisx69 wrote:

raverrn wrote:
This isn't mathhammer, this is just fluff. Mathhammer would be looking at and playing to odds instead of just antecedal evidence.

That being said, there are a few things you missed:

Models that strike before orks in CC reducing your number of attacks (bigger effect on choppas)

Ongoing combat reducing your STR (bigger effect on choppas)

Overwatch Fire reducing your number of attacks (bigger effect on choppas)

Failed charges eliminating close combat entirely (bigger effect on choppas)

Casualties from shooting exaggerating the above - the the point of sometimes not wanting to shoot before charging at all! (bigger effect on choppas)

Bottom line for thirty boys on foot (which apparently this was) - Shootas can cause casualties sooner than choppas, which means they take less fire back, lose less orks and probably hit CC with just as many if not more attacks than choppas.

Also, they're slugga boyz, not choppa boys!

You have no evidence or numbers to follow your points. ALl you did was post up a bunch of what "ifs" and maybe "so's"

Prime example last game 30 shoots blasted away at 5 space marine for 2 turns and didnt even kill 1. 15 orks Choppas ran into the SAMEW exact squad and killed them all.

Half the boyz 300% results...

Choppa's and shoota's are different on paper BUT on the field there mathhammer PROVES beyond a shadow that they are virtually the same in combat.

Yes. Assuming you're able to magically teleport your mob of 30 into assault range, auto-pass charge distance rolls and bypass overwatch.

Sorry my good sir but your "mathammer" proves nothing. It's like comparing the cost in dollars of an AK-47 and a microwave owen and deducing they must be roughly ecquivalent in terms of combat effectiveness.

 Agent_Tremolo wrote:

osirisx69 wrote:

raverrn wrote:
This isn't mathhammer, this is just fluff. Mathhammer would be looking at and playing to odds instead of just antecedal evidence.

That being said, there are a few things you missed:

Models that strike before orks in CC reducing your number of attacks (bigger effect on choppas)

Ongoing combat reducing your STR (bigger effect on choppas)

Overwatch Fire reducing your number of attacks (bigger effect on choppas)

Failed charges eliminating close combat entirely (bigger effect on choppas)

Casualties from shooting exaggerating the above - the the point of sometimes not wanting to shoot before charging at all! (bigger effect on choppas)

Bottom line for thirty boys on foot (which apparently this was) - Shootas can cause casualties sooner than choppas, which means they take less fire back, lose less orks and probably hit CC with just as many if not more attacks than choppas.

Also, they're slugga boyz, not choppa boys!

You have no evidence or numbers to follow your points. ALl you did was post up a bunch of what "ifs" and maybe "so's"

Prime example last game 30 shoots blasted away at 5 space marine for 2 turns and didnt even kill 1. 15 orks Choppas ran into the SAMEW exact squad and killed them all.

Half the boyz 300% results...

Choppa's and shoota's are different on paper BUT on the field there mathhammer PROVES beyond a shadow that they are virtually the same in combat.

Yes. Assuming you're able to magically teleport your mob of 30 into assault range, auto-pass charge distance rolls and bypass overwatch .

That's exactly what I did.

I will say it another way. Given all things unequal ( or equal ) the math on 2 assault shots before a charge of 2 attacks each shows that it does less wounds then 1 slugga shot then a charge of 3 attacks each.

I have no idea what game YOU play or even how your terrain is. So there is no possible way to guess that. All I can say is by the MATH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The Choppas win. by over 18% heck if you want to hedge your bet even more roll the Choppa's with square dice and the Shoot'as with GW dice. Then you should win with a 26% margin.

You can really only run these simulations if you define starting distance, who your opponent is and what actions they will be taking. For example, if we say the following...

1. Starting 24" apart and versus a 10 man strong squad of MEQs.
2. Ork Mob will move forward 6" and shoot if possible, run otherwise with a run defined as the average result of 3".
3. Enemies will stand and shoot.
4. Ork Mob will declare a charge once within 8" of the enemy.
5. Assume Orks go first.

Using this, Slugga Boyz will...

1. move 6", run 3", still be 15" away. Get shot at.
2. move 6", run 3", still be 6" away. Get shot at.
3. move 5", shoot, assault

Shoota Boyz will...
1. move 6", run 3" as it's mathmatically impossible for the enemy to be within 18". Get shot at.
2. move 6", shoot, still be 9" away. Get shot at.
3. move 6", shoot, assault

Given this napkin math, Shoota Boyz will take the same amount of incoming fire, but will have 4 times as much shooting as Slugga Boyz (2 rounds of shooting at Assault 2 versus one at Assault 1).

This should more than make up for the fact that they have 1 less attack in combat.

Even saying this, we're making tons of assumptions. Maybe I'll write a script and run 50,000 or so random combat scenarios later today... gotta love working as a programmer and having downtime.

 Kriswall wrote:
You can really only run these simulations if you define starting distance, who your opponent is and what actions they will be taking. For example, if we say the following...

1. Starting 24" apart and versus a 10 man strong squad of MEQs.
2. Ork Mob will move forward 6" and shoot if possible, run otherwise with a run defined as the average result of 3".
3. Enemies will stand and shoot.
4. Ork Mob will declare a charge once within 8" of the enemy.
5. Assume Orks go first.

Using this, Slugga Boyz will...

1. move 6", run 3", still be 15" away. Get shot at.
2. move 6", run 3", still be 6" away. Get shot at.
3. move 5", shoot, assault

Shoota Boyz will...
1. move 6", run 3" as it's mathmatically impossible for the enemy to be within 18". Get shot at.
2. move 6", shoot, still be 9" away. Get shot at.
3. move 6", shoot, assault

Given this napkin math, Shoota Boyz will take the same amount of incoming fire, but will have 4 times as much shooting as Slugga Boyz (2 rounds of shooting at Assault 2 versus one at Assault 1).

This should more than make up for the fact that they have 1 less attack in combat.

Even saying this, we're making tons of assumptions. Maybe I'll write a script and run 50,000 or so random combat scenarios later today... gotta love working as a programmer and having downtime.

That would be the most amazing thing if you could do that.

Don't forget Choppa Boyz get 3 attacks on the charge where Shoota's only get 2. Also Shootas and Choppas need 5+ to hit in shooting but only 4+ to hit in HtH.

Will do. Might take me until tomorrow. Personal life is blowing up!

 Kriswall wrote:
Will do. Might take me until tomorrow. Personal life is blowing up!

If you need anymore stats let me know, I will be happy to provide.

osirisx69 wrote:
That's exactly what I did.

I will say it another way. Given all things unequal ( or equal ) the math on 2 assault shots before a charge of 2 attacks each shows that it does less wounds then 1 slugga shot then a charge of 3 attacks each.

I have no idea what game YOU play or even how your terrain is. So there is no possible way to guess that. All I can say is by the MATH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The Choppas win. by over 18% heck if you want to hedge your bet even more roll the Choppa's with square dice and the Shoot'as with GW dice. Then you should win with a 26% margin.

Not denying that. Shoota boyz trade a WS4 S4 attack in close combat for a BS2 S4 ranged attack, so they're going to hit less often.

But my point is, to make good use of that extra attack at a superior WS, Slugga boys must go through two additional rolls which greatly increase the odds against them, while Shootas just have to point and shoot. They may be less effective on paper, yes, but they are less subject to random.

Here's my proposal: Assuming a target unit of 10 Space Marines armed with bolters and a distance of 6" between them and the assaulting unit of 30 ork boys, perform 1000 rolls to see how many times a) Orks fail the charge entirely b) Orks lose attacks to overwatch wounds (I'm willing to forgo those cases where random assault distance is enough for some models to get in base-to-base contact, but don't allow the entire unit to pile in), and use them to modify the Sluggas' earlier results. I can lean you a hand with the test if you want.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ow, Kriswall ninja'ed me good. That's what happens when you have a half-written post floating around for hours

osirisx69 wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:
You can really only run these simulations if you define starting distance, who your opponent is and what actions they will be taking. For example, if we say the following...

1. Starting 24" apart and versus a 10 man strong squad of MEQs.
2. Ork Mob will move forward 6" and shoot if possible, run otherwise with a run defined as the average result of 3".
3. Enemies will stand and shoot.
4. Ork Mob will declare a charge once within 8" of the enemy.
5. Assume Orks go first.

Using this, Slugga Boyz will...

1. move 6", run 3", still be 15" away. Get shot at.
2. move 6", run 3", still be 6" away. Get shot at.
3. move 5", shoot, assault

Shoota Boyz will...
1. move 6", run 3" as it's mathmatically impossible for the enemy to be within 18". Get shot at.
2. move 6", shoot, still be 9" away. Get shot at.
3. move 6", shoot, assault

Given this napkin math, Shoota Boyz will take the same amount of incoming fire, but will have 4 times as much shooting as Slugga Boyz (2 rounds of shooting at Assault 2 versus one at Assault 1).

This should more than make up for the fact that they have 1 less attack in combat.

Even saying this, we're making tons of assumptions. Maybe I'll write a script and run 50,000 or so random combat scenarios later today... gotta love working as a programmer and having downtime.

That would be the most amazing thing if you could do that.

Don't forget Choppa Boyz get 3 attacks on the charge where Shoota's only get 2. Also Shootas and Choppas need 5+ to hit in shooting but only 4+ to hit in HtH.

Don't Boyz have 2 attacks base? So Choppas get 4 on the charge and Shootas get 3?

Straight Mathhammer assuming no casualties of 30 boyz shooting then charging 10 marines.

Shootas = 10.83 unsaved wounds so squad dead
Choppas = 11.67 Unsaved wounds so squad dead.

SO mathematically in an ideal world the choppas are slightly better. That said, shootas are more versatile (you don't want to charge everything), The shoot more often in most cases, overwatch better, and have more options.

Also look at it this way. Choppa boyz are 50% as effective shooting vs Shootas. but Shootas are only 25% less effective in CC.

Breng77 wrote:
Straight Mathhammer assuming no casualties of 30 boyz shooting then charging 10 marines.

Shootas = 10.83 unsaved wounds so squad dead
Choppas = 11.67 Unsaved wounds so squad dead.

SO mathematically in an ideal world the choppas are slightly better. That said, shootas are more versatile (you don't want to charge everything), The shoot more often in most cases, overwatch better, and have more options.

Also look at it this way. Choppa boyz are 50% as effective shooting vs Shootas. but Shootas are only 25% less effective in CC.

How did you come to the conclusion? The shootas my hit half more but the choppas will win combat more thus making the enemy run and get destroyed. In all of my games my shootas have NEVER shot a squad to death, but my choppas have run down a many tau and Spacemarine.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Agent_Tremolo wrote:

osirisx69 wrote:
That's exactly what I did.

I will say it another way. Given all things unequal ( or equal ) the math on 2 assault shots before a charge of 2 attacks each shows that it does less wounds then 1 slugga shot then a charge of 3 attacks each.

I have no idea what game YOU play or even how your terrain is. So there is no possible way to guess that. All I can say is by the MATH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The Choppas win. by over 18% heck if you want to hedge your bet even more roll the Choppa's with square dice and the Shoot'as with GW dice. Then you should win with a 26% margin.

Not denying that. Shoota boyz trade a WS4 S4 attack in close combat for a BS2 S4 ranged attack, so they're going to hit less often.

But my point is, to make good use of that extra attack at a superior WS, Slugga boys must go through two additional rolls which greatly increase the odds against them, while Shootas just have to point and shoot. They may be less effective on paper, yes, but they are less subject to random.

Here's my proposal: Assuming a target unit of 10 Space Marines armed with bolters and a distance of 6" between them and the assaulting unit of 30 ork boys, perform 1000 rolls to see how many times a) Orks fail the charge entirely b) Orks lose attacks to overwatch wounds (I'm willing to forgo those cases where random assault distance is enough for some models to get in base-to-base contact, but don't allow the entire unit to pile in), and use them to modify the Sluggas' earlier results. I can lean you a hand with the test if you want.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ow, Kriswall ninja'ed me good. That's what happens when you have a half-written post floating around for hours

Let me try this...ok I ran the Scenario

to-Hit for 2000 attacks:

* To-Hit needing 6+ (1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6), getting 346 hits = 346 hits

To-Wound for 346 hits:

* To-Wound needing 4+ (1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6) = 191 Wounds

So out of 2000 space marine bolters firing in over watch only 191 would ever die. Which is about 1.9% I think ?

You do know you cannot sweep space marines right? Beyond that yes there is an upside to winning combat but shoots boys can win combat as well (they do 25% less wounds on average on the charge.). The fact that you choose to ignore this and any other evidence of shoot as being being better just goes to show that you want to say chollas are better despite any evidence to the contrary.

Yeah, I did a quick analysis, and all else equal, Shootas will win against a MEQ unit who just stands there and does nothing but shoot and get assaulted. It just comes down to total number of attacks.

Shootas will typically get at least 2 rounds of shooting followed by 1 round of fighting. That's 7 attacks per Boy total with an average of 2.83 hits per Boy over the duration of the walk and then initial assault. All at S4.

Sluggas will typically get 1 round of shooting followed by 1 round of fighting. That's 5 attacks per Boy total with an average of 2.5 hits per Boy over the duration of the walk and then initial assault. All at S4.

So, not only do the Shootas get more initial hits against the MEQs, 1.33 hits per Shoota vs. 0.33 hits per Slugga are shooting hits. This means that there will be fewer MEQs left alive in the initial round of combat and the Shootas will take fewer casualties in combat.

Both types of Boyz take identical casualties while walking towards combat.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ultimately, I'd take Shootas for a Green Tide... Sluggas if I can get them in quicker and assault out of an assault vehicle.

 Kriswall wrote:
Yeah, I did a quick analysis, and all else equal, Shootas will win against a MEQ unit who just stands there and does nothing but shoot and get assaulted. It just comes down to total number of attacks.

Shootas will typically get at least 2 rounds of shooting followed by 1 round of fighting. That's 7 attacks per Boy total with an average of 2.83 hits per Boy over the duration of the walk and then initial assault. All at S4.

Sluggas will typically get 1 round of shooting followed by 1 round of fighting. That's 5 attacks per Boy total with an average of 2.5 hits per Boy over the duration of the walk and then initial assault. All at S4.

So, not only do the Shootas get more initial hits against the MEQs, 1.33 hits per Shoota vs. 0.33 hits per Slugga are shooting hits. This means that there will be fewer MEQs left alive in the initial round of combat and the Shootas will take fewer casualties in combat.

Both types of Boyz take identical casualties while walking towards combat.



Thanks for the info m8!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ultimately, I'd take Shootas for a Green Tide... Sluggas if I can get them in quicker and assault out of an assault vehicle.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Breng77 wrote:
You do know you cannot sweep space marines right? Beyond that yes there is an upside to winning combat but shoots boys can win combat as well (they do 25% less wounds on average on the charge.). The fact that you choose to ignore this and any other evidence of shoot as being being better just goes to show that you want to say chollas are better despite any evidence to the contrary.

What are you talking about? Did you even read ANY of the other posts ?

Please clarify what it is you are trying to inject in the discussion.

191 is 1.9% of 2000

Not really impressed with the 'mathhammer' ITT.

I love assault, and would be very happy if the new Orks can chop better, but for foot slogging boyz your an idiot to take sluggas over shootas.

I'm saying that despite any evidence to the contrary you refuse to believe any of it and just say that in a vacuum where everything is perfect slugga boyz are better...which is true. The issue is they are better by a small amount 25% better on the charge in cc, while shootas are doing twice as much (or more) in turns when they are not in close combat.

osirisx69 wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:
Yeah, I did a quick analysis, and all else equal, Shootas will win against a MEQ unit who just stands there and does nothing but shoot and get assaulted. It just comes down to total number of attacks.

Shootas will typically get at least 2 rounds of shooting followed by 1 round of fighting. That's 7 attacks per Boy total with an average of 2.83 hits per Boy over the duration of the walk and then initial assault. All at S4.

Sluggas will typically get 1 round of shooting followed by 1 round of fighting. That's 5 attacks per Boy total with an average of 2.5 hits per Boy over the duration of the walk and then initial assault. All at S4.

So, not only do the Shootas get more initial hits against the MEQs, 1.33 hits per Shoota vs. 0.33 hits per Slugga are shooting hits. This means that there will be fewer MEQs left alive in the initial round of combat and the Shootas will take fewer casualties in combat.

Both types of Boyz take identical casualties while walking towards combat.



Thanks for the info m8!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ultimately, I'd take Shootas for a Green Tide... Sluggas if I can get them in quicker and assault out of an assault vehicle.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Breng77 wrote:
You do know you cannot sweep space marines right? Beyond that yes there is an upside to winning combat but shoots boys can win combat as well (they do 25% less wounds on average on the charge.). The fact that you choose to ignore this and any other evidence of shoot as being being better just goes to show that you want to say chollas are better despite any evidence to the contrary.

What are you talking about? Did you even read ANY of the other posts ?

Please clarify what it is you are trying to inject in the discussion.

I did read the posts. I'm not sure what issue you have with my statements. Please be specific if you're looking for a useful response. My point is that walking Shootas are better than walking Sluggas because they do more wounds. Ultimately, a 30 man strong Boyz unit will take out 10 Marines almost everytime regardless of what type of gun they're toting.

I'm curious as to how you got these numbers, did you just simulate rolling x amount of dice with an RNG and than tally the results? Because that in my mind is not math, thats just recording results, here's my version:

Assume target space marine, Orks shoot than assault, ignore overwatch.

Orks shooting - 33.33% to hit, 50% to wound = 0.167 wounds per shot
Orks melee - 50% to hit, 50% to wound = 0.25 wounds per shot

Assume 1000 orks

Shootas
shooting - 2000 shots - 334 wounds
Melee - 3000 attacks - 750 wounds

Choppas
shooting - 1000 shots - 167 wounds
Melee - 4000 attacks - 1000 wounds


Totals
Shootas - 1084 wounds
Choppas - 1167 wounds

1-(1084/1167) = 0.0711

So after one round of shooting & combat, slugga & choppa boys will inflict 7.11% more wounds than Shoota boys. However Shoota boys have a range advantage over Slugga & choppas so I believe it would be fair to add in an additional round of shooting for the shoota boys while the slugga boys are running.

Even if we assume that only half of the shoota boys will get an extra round of shooting because the rest aren't in range we are left with:

Shootas - 1084 + (0.5*334) = 1251

1-(1167/1251) = 0.0677

So adding in that extra shooting phase Shootas have inflicted 6.77% more wounds than slugga & choppa boys.

This isn't even taking into account the added challenges Melee armies face in 6th edition or the bonuses Shooting armies get in 6th edition.

 Madcat87 wrote:
I'm curious as to how you got these numbers, did you just simulate rolling x amount of dice with an RNG and than tally the results? Because that in my mind is not math, thats just recording results, here's my version:

Assume target space marine, Orks shoot than assault, ignore overwatch.

Orks shooting - 33.33% to hit, 50% to wound = 0.167 wounds per shot
Orks melee - 50% to hit, 50% to wound = 0.25 wounds per shot

Assume 1000 orks

Shootas
shooting - 2000 shots - 334 wounds
Melee - 3000 attacks - 750 wounds

Choppas
shooting - 1000 shots - 167 wounds
Melee - 4000 attacks - 1000 wounds


Totals
Shootas - 1084 wounds
Choppas - 1167 wounds

1-(1084/1167) = 0.0711

So after one round of shooting & combat, slugga & choppa boys will inflict 7.11% more wounds than Shoota boys. However Shoota boys have a range advantage over Slugga & choppas so I believe it would be fair to add in an additional round of shooting for the shoota boys while the slugga boys are running.

Even if we assume that only half of the shoota boys will get an extra round of shooting because the rest aren't in range we are left with:

Shootas - 1084 + (0.5*334) = 1251

1-(1167/1251) = 0.0677

So adding in that extra shooting phase Shootas have inflicted 6.77% more wounds than slugga & choppa boys.

This isn't even taking into account the added challenges Melee armies face in 6th edition or the bonuses Shooting armies get in 6th edition.

Based on this shootas have a higher potential for invflicting wounds against MEQ than slugga & choppa boyz. The numbers also assume the orks get the charge - if they don't, then it's 33% to wound in close combat which will widen the gap more.

I agree with many in this thread - at the moment, Shootas are better.

osirisx69 wrote:

So out of 2000 space marine bolters firing in over watch only 191 would ever die. Which is about 1.9% I think ?

heh.

I think you mean 19.1%

Over like 4-5 years of playing orks i didn't have a single occasion of all 30 boyz striking blows in mellee at once. The max you can get is just 20 from a perfect battlewagon disembarking in 1' of an enemy assuming noone dies from overwatch and before striking.
If u're footslogging 30 boyz - you can hope to get around 10 of them striking at best. Cause you have to spread to avoid blasts and templates, than closest die before striking.
While shootaboyz can afford to have dakka pressure at range + bigshootas that are generally not used on sluggas.
It's not very useful to mathhammer all 30 beigh hitting.
Sluggas were actually usable in battlewagons in previous edition cause mellee was just way better. And now it's sometimes more profitable to stand and shoot and not charge at all. Even with da orkses.