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Weird, I haven't seen loyalist Space Marines in months...

One thing GW could do is drop prices on non-Marine kits ;P

 Peregrine wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
By focusing less marketing on the Space Marine side.

This. Combine the marine armies into a single codex and stop using marines as the focus of 95% of the fluff. Marines are popular because they're the first thing every new player sees, and the first models they get in the starter set. Give a better balance of time to the other armies and space marines will no longer dominate.

Arguably, it's because people LIKE what they see. Sure, greater exposure helps, but it wouldn't matter if people didn't actually like what was being pushed.

 Tannhauser42 wrote:
One of the most brilliant design decisions GW ever made was the Space Marine shoulder pad. Slap a different emblem on that pad, and suddenly it's a visually different model from all the others. What is the equivalent of that for the other armies?

Just because I can: the Chaos Space Marine shoulderpad?

More marketing for the other factions would go a long way I imagine.

 Tannhauser42 wrote:
One of the most brilliant design decisions GW ever made was the Space Marine shoulder pad. Slap a different emblem on that pad, and suddenly it's a visually different model from all the others. What is the equivalent of that for the other armies?

Huh? That's no different to painting any model from any other army differently to set it apart.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Tannhauser42 wrote:
One of the most brilliant design decisions GW ever made was the Space Marine shoulder pad. Slap a different emblem on that pad, and suddenly it's a visually different model from all the others. What is the equivalent of that for the other armies?

Huh? That's no different to painting any model from any other army differently to set it apart.

no it's not.... the actual model looks different rather than just the paint.

The sheer modular convertability of any Marine model is one thing I love about them and that no other faction can match. (Only IG can come close.) For example, my squad of Chosen used parts from CSM, tacticals, possessed, raptors, and various bits and bobs from other places, as well as plasticard to make them a little bigger. Which other army can boast such potential for kitbashing?

The shoulderpads are, of course, included in the above.

As others have said, one way would be just by giving non-Marines more fluff attention.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
it makes sense to have them in the starter box

Though I do completely agree that non-Marine factions should get some more attention, I will say that one advantage of them being in the starter set is that they're a good starter army. They're quite easy to learn and play.

Additional starter sets could also be an option, but I don't think that GW would go for that anyway.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Which other army can boast such potential for kitbashing?

Da Orks, reportedly.

Really I think IG, SM (CSM most of all), and orks have the most diversity. Anyways I'd add orks to your list sense they loot vehicles and kinda are goofy. I have a friend making an army that thinks the emperor is the greatest war boss. Grots dress like guardsman and orks wear SM scavenged armor

Orks do have a lot of kitbashing potential, but not the amount Marines do. The majority of infantry models the Astartes have available, across all the six codices, can be kitbashed. The Orks even have trouble matching Boy and Nob parts without it looking goofy.

Its not really the orks as much as the sheer diversity of their vehicles. SM don't really have diverse vehicles (not counting CSM). IG of course can pretty much represent a million different things so going to not focus on that or CSM. SM vehicles are rather same. The models, whilst always looking rather similar can have these minor changes to make them distinct. Orks, infantry wise seem to not work as well on the infantry side but in terms of vehicles, they hit the park. Any vehicle, orkify it.

List of armies my regulars have:

Blood Angels
Chaos Space Marines (me - Do you count CSM as a SM army?)
Eldar x2
Dark Eldar (me again)
Tau
Orks
Necrons
Imperial Guard (me AGAIN)
Chaos Daemons (... guess who again)

I won't deny the possibility that there are a lot of SM players out there though.

I think there are a few key factors which make SM so attractive:

1. They are relatively easy to start playing. They have a good range of plastic models, the cost for a basic army is fairly low, they aren't too difficult to build or paint and they are easy to transport. Only Necrons and Tau really manage to compete with them on that basis.

2. They are flexible and relatively forgiving to play. Marines can handle themselves in almost any situation. They are tough, good shots, fairly mobile and never really have to worry about morale. I think that only Necrons offer all of those, although Eldar and Tau aren't too bad.

3. They are the 'good guys'. Imperial Guard are human and easy to sympathise with, but they aren't elite heroes. Tau and Eldar are relatively nice and also 'better' than most other races in some way, but they are aliens.

Overall, I'd say that GW are going in the right direction with the Tau. They have powerful rules, their model range is good and getting better (although still full of annoying flying bases and far too many easily-broken antennae), their background is fun and their play-style isn't terribly complex, but still offers plenty of tactical flexibility.

Eldar had similar potential, but their model range needs a lot more plastic kits. Necrons are probably the best 'villain' army at the moment, but are never going to appeal to people who want to play heroes. Tyranids could potentially be similar to necrons, but they really need a codex which makes mid-sized plastic kits like warriors, genestealers and raveners the core of the army; termagants are just too much trouble to paint in the numbers they need to work.

Perfect Organism wrote:
I think there are a few key factors which make SM so attractive:

1. They are relatively easy to start playing. They have a good range of plastic models, the cost for a basic army is fairly low, they aren't too difficult to build or paint and they are easy to transport. Only Necrons and Tau really manage to compete with them on that basis.

2. They are flexible and relatively forgiving to play. Marines can handle themselves in almost any situation. They are tough, good shots, fairly mobile and never really have to worry about morale. I think that only Necrons offer all of those, although Eldar and Tau aren't too bad.

3. They are the 'good guys'. Imperial Guard are human and easy to sympathise with, but they aren't elite heroes. Tau and Eldar are relatively nice and also 'better' than most other races in some way, but they are aliens.

Overall, I'd say that GW are going in the right direction with the Tau. They have powerful rules, their model range is good and getting better (although still full of annoying flying bases and far too many easily-broken antennae), their background is fun and their play-style isn't terribly complex, but still offers plenty of tactical flexibility.

Eldar had similar potential, but their model range needs a lot more plastic kits. Necrons are probably the best 'villain' army at the moment, but are never going to appeal to people who want to play heroes. Tyranids could potentially be similar to necrons, but they really need a codex which makes mid-sized plastic kits like warriors, genestealers and raveners the core of the army; termagants are just too much trouble to paint in the numbers they need to work.

This seems spot-on. Exalted!

 Orblivion wrote:
That's not really fair to say. It could be argued that the marketing is perpetuating that popularity, to the detriment of the other factions, but you can't say with any degree of certainty that 40K would be just as big as it is currently even without the draw of Space Marines.

Don't confuse "Marketing" with "Advertising". Advertising is just one facet of marketing.

Furthermore, when your marketing material leads people to think that some of your products don't even exist, yes, a LOT can be blamed on marketing.

 Orblivion wrote:
My own experience in the last year or so tells me that Marine armies are on the decline right now anyways. Do we really need a plan to make them even less prevalent?

Yes.

Even by the admission of he authors, Space Marines are a very tiny aspect of the lore which has very little impact on the galaxy as a whole. The lore could use some expansion in things not Space Marine related.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
The sheer modular convertability of any Marine model is one thing I love about them and that no other faction can match. (Only IG can come close.) For example, my squad of Chosen used parts from CSM, tacticals, possessed, raptors, and various bits and bobs from other places, as well as plasticard to make them a little bigger. Which other army can boast such potential for kitbashing?

Orks not only boast that much, it boasts MORE.

Orks are by far the most convertible, moddable, modular, and customizable army in the game as far as modeling goes. No army can even get close to what Orks can do in terms of modeling. Space Marines don't even BEGIN to approach Orky kustomization and kitbashing. Space Marines cream their pants at the idea of having even half the level of kitbashing possible for Orks.

No, where Orks suffer is their rules, which don't reflect their massive variety in modeling and lore.

 Melissia wrote:
Orks not only boast that much, it boasts MORE.

Orks are by far the most convertible, moddable, modular, and customizable army in the game as far as modeling goes. No army can even get close to what Orks can do in terms of modeling. Space Marines don't even BEGIN to approach Orky kustomization and kitbashing. Space Marines cream their pants at the idea of having even half the level of kitbashing possible for Orks.

No, where Orks suffer is their rules, which don't reflect their massive variety in modeling and lore.

I thought it was obvious that I was discussing infantry.

Are you seriously implying Orks can get close to Marine level of kitbashing potential for infantry? You can't even swap out Nob and Boy parts without it looking goofy, unless you start using GS in which case it's not really just kitbashing any more (Which was what I was specifically referring to.)

Ork vehicles are there no need to even mention since you can take literally any other vehicle in the game and slap on Ork-looking bits on it. Uh, Gz. Orks take that win. Here, have a pat on the back. Happy now?

And I'd doubt that Marines 'cram their pants' at it, they may not have as ramshackle things but they can do nice stuff as well.

Even by the admission of he authors, Space Marines are a very tiny aspect of the lore which has very little impact on the galaxy as a whole. The lore could use some expansion in things not Space Marine related.

From the latest WD, they are apparently the 'core' of the setting. Don't shoot me, I didn't say it. But your own, personal and entirely subjective interpretation of the fluff should not be something to throw around as an argument for an attention shift.

By all means, argue that attention should be shifted to other races and factions than Marines and the Imperium who gets most of the love, because you want to read more about Tyranids or Orks or whatever.

'Tiny aspect of the lore which has little impact'? Strange, what I have read contradicts this interpretation... But then, it's your interpretation, go ahead and keep it.

Just don't shove it into the face of others as if it was some kind of common or default stance.

Note! Not looking for a fight! Meant no offense with any of the above.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Are you seriously implying Orks can get close to Marine level of kitbashing potential for infantry? You can't even swap out Nob and Boy parts without it looking goofy, unless you start using GS in which case it's not really just kitbashing any more (Which was what I was specifically referring to.)

You can't swap Power Armour Marine bits with Terminator bits either.

Ork Boyz can be made into Kommandos or Tankbustas using only the bits found in the boyz box. They can trade parts with Bikers, Lootas, Burnas and Stormboyz. That's seven units with interchangeable parts.

Marines get two types of veteran, tactical marines, assault marines, devastators, command squads and bikers, right? That's seven different unit types with interchangeable parts too.

Give Tau ignore cover and Eldar transports with absurd defensive and offensive capabilities.

Oh wait...

Perfect Organism wrote:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Are you seriously implying Orks can get close to Marine level of kitbashing potential for infantry? You can't even swap out Nob and Boy parts without it looking goofy, unless you start using GS in which case it's not really just kitbashing any more (Which was what I was specifically referring to.)

You can't swap Power Armour Marine bits with Terminator bits either.

Ork Boyz can be made into Kommandos or Tankbustas using only the bits found in the boyz box. They can trade parts with Bikers, Lootas, Burnas and Stormboyz. That's seven units with interchangeable parts.

Marines get two types of veteran, tactical marines, assault marines, devastators, command squads and bikers, right? That's seven different unit types with interchangeable parts too.

Add Blood Angels, Chaos Marines, Dark Angels, Grey Knights, Space Wolves...

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Are you seriously implying Orks can get close to Marine level of kitbashing potential for infantry?

Yes.

Anything you can do for Space Marines, you can do for Ork infantry, and more besides.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
From the latest WD, they are apparently the 'core' of the setting

Oh, so the latest WD said there are more than just a mere million of them, and that it's NOT the case that most battles take place without even a whiff of Space Marines, and that it's NOT true that most sentient beings in 40k will never see one in their lives?

Oh it didn't?

Then they are not the core of the setting, they remain, as I said, a very tiny part of it.

 Melissia wrote:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
From the latest WD, they are apparently the 'core' of the setting

Oh, so the latest WD said there are more than just a mere million of them, and that it's NOT the case that most battles take place without even a whiff of Space Marines, and that it's NOT true that most sentient beings in 40k will never see one in their lives?

Oh it didn't?

Then they are not the core of the setting, they remain, as I said, a very tiny part of it.

You're mistaking "core of the setting" for "core part within the setting". The Jedi are far more rare even than Astartes, and yet they are the core of Star Wars.

 Orblivion wrote:
You're mistaking "core of the setting" for "core part within the setting". The Jedi are far more rare even than Astartes, and yet they are the core of Star Wars.

You're mistaking "marketing focus" for "core of the setting".

In Battletech, sure 'Mechs are rare, but almost every single battle has a 'Mech participating in it. Everyone knows about 'Mechs and most people have seen at least one through their local garrison, save for the absolute poorest of worlds. Thus, it is fair to say that 'Mechs are indeed a core element of Battletech. That they're also the most marketed aspect has no relevance here.

In 40k, Space Marines are rare, most battles don't have any Space Marine presence, and most people (assuming they know of them at all, which is not guaranteed) see them as myths and legends at best. As such, they're far less of a core element. They're simply the most marketed element.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
From the latest WD, they are apparently the 'core' of the setting.

That doesn't necessarily conflict with the quotes that Melissia referenced. That they're "the core" could just refer to how much fluff attention they get, whilst those other quotes are just referring to how, in-universe, they're a relatively small factor.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Are you seriously implying Orks can get close to Marine level of kitbashing potential for infantry? You can't even swap out Nob and Boy parts without it looking goofy, unless you start using GS in which case it's not really just kitbashing any more (Which was what I was specifically referring to.)

I think that the advantage that Orks have over loyalist Marines is that their characterisation is just so ramshackle and undisciplined. You could get away with slapping a lot onto an Ork model that might otherwise look out of place on the average loyalist Marine.

 Melissia wrote:

 Orblivion wrote:
You're mistaking "core of the setting" for "core part within the setting". The Jedi are far more rare even than Astartes, and yet they are the core of Star Wars.

You're mistaking "marketing focus" for "core of the setting".

In Battletech, sure 'Mechs are rare, but almost every single battle has a 'Mech participating in it. Everyone knows about 'Mechs and most people have seen at least one through their local garrison, save for the absolute poorest of worlds. Thus, it is fair to say that 'Mechs are indeed a core element of Battletech. That they're also the most marketed aspect has no relevance here.

In 40k, Space Marines are rare, most battles don't have any Space Marine presence, and most people (assuming they know of them at all, which is not guaranteed) see them as myths and legends at best. As such, they're far less of a core element. They're simply the most marketed element.

Eh, this is a chicken or the egg scenario. You believe they are only "core" because of the marketing, I believe they are marketed so much because they are intended to be the core of the setting. Agree to disagree.

Sure why not.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:

Perfect Organism wrote:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Are you seriously implying Orks can get close to Marine level of kitbashing potential for infantry? You can't even swap out Nob and Boy parts without it looking goofy, unless you start using GS in which case it's not really just kitbashing any more (Which was what I was specifically referring to.)

You can't swap Power Armour Marine bits with Terminator bits either.

Ork Boyz can be made into Kommandos or Tankbustas using only the bits found in the boyz box. They can trade parts with Bikers, Lootas, Burnas and Stormboyz. That's seven units with interchangeable parts.

Marines get two types of veteran, tactical marines, assault marines, devastators, command squads and bikers, right? That's seven different unit types with interchangeable parts too.

Add Blood Angels, Chaos Marines, Dark Angels, Grey Knights, Space Wolves...

Isn't the fantasy orc range interchangeable with 40k orks? That adds a lot of options.

Perfect Organism wrote:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:

Perfect Organism wrote:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Are you seriously implying Orks can get close to Marine level of kitbashing potential for infantry? You can't even swap out Nob and Boy parts without it looking goofy, unless you start using GS in which case it's not really just kitbashing any more (Which was what I was specifically referring to.)

You can't swap Power Armour Marine bits with Terminator bits either.

Ork Boyz can be made into Kommandos or Tankbustas using only the bits found in the boyz box. They can trade parts with Bikers, Lootas, Burnas and Stormboyz. That's seven units with interchangeable parts.

Marines get two types of veteran, tactical marines, assault marines, devastators, command squads and bikers, right? That's seven different unit types with interchangeable parts too.

Add Blood Angels, Chaos Marines, Dark Angels, Grey Knights, Space Wolves...

Isn't the fantasy orc range interchangeable with 40k orks? That adds a lot of options.

A significant number but not sufficient to reach that of the Marines.

champagne_socialist wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Tannhauser42 wrote:
One of the most brilliant design decisions GW ever made was the Space Marine shoulder pad. Slap a different emblem on that pad, and suddenly it's a visually different model from all the others. What is the equivalent of that for the other armies?

Huh? That's no different to painting any model from any other army differently to set it apart.

no it's not.... the actual model looks different rather than just the paint.

Really? A model with an upside down omega symbol on the shoulder pad looks much the same to me as a model with a skull on the shoulder pad. I would say Tyranids with a different paint scheme can look as much if not more unique than Space Marines with a shoulder pad swap.

Things like Space Wolves look different because they have a lot of other adornments on them... though even they look much the same, a dude in armour who is very protective of his shins and shoulders.

I think it's a stretch to say "the actual model looks different".

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

champagne_socialist wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Tannhauser42 wrote:
One of the most brilliant design decisions GW ever made was the Space Marine shoulder pad. Slap a different emblem on that pad, and suddenly it's a visually different model from all the others. What is the equivalent of that for the other armies?

Huh? That's no different to painting any model from any other army differently to set it apart.

no it's not.... the actual model looks different rather than just the paint.

Really? A model with an upside down omega symbol on the shoulder pad looks much the same to me as a model with a skull on the shoulder pad. I would say Tyranids with a different paint scheme can look as much if not more unique than Space Marines with a shoulder pad swap.

Things like Space Wolves look different because they have a lot of other adornments on them... though even they look much the same, a dude in armour who is very protective of his shins and shoulders.

I think it's a stretch to say "the actual model looks different".

of course the models look different. Look at space wolves who have models that ride wolves, or blood angels who have models (sangunary guard) who have cool wings on their jump packsor dark angels who have a jetbikeand some cool landspeeders.

also i can personalise my space marines how I want with different shoulder pads representing different codexs, different helmets, different markings on the guns eg space wolves, different markings on the back packs.

The actual models look different.

I think it's reasonable that the Imperium of Man is the core of the Warhammer 40k universe, because we will naturally identify with the "human" characters in the universe moreso than the less humanoid races. Space Marines, as the elite fighting force of the Imperium, naturally get a significant amount of the glory. Their constant inclusion in the starter sets only reinforces that.

champagne_socialist wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

champagne_socialist wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Tannhauser42 wrote:
One of the most brilliant design decisions GW ever made was the Space Marine shoulder pad. Slap a different emblem on that pad, and suddenly it's a visually different model from all the others. What is the equivalent of that for the other armies?

Huh? That's no different to painting any model from any other army differently to set it apart.

no it's not.... the actual model looks different rather than just the paint.

Really? A model with an upside down omega symbol on the shoulder pad looks much the same to me as a model with a skull on the shoulder pad. I would say Tyranids with a different paint scheme can look as much if not more unique than Space Marines with a shoulder pad swap.

Things like Space Wolves look different because they have a lot of other adornments on them... though even they look much the same, a dude in armour who is very protective of his shins and shoulders.

I think it's a stretch to say "the actual model looks different".

of course the models look different. Look at space wolves who have models that ride wolves, or blood angels who have models (sangunary guard) who have cool wings on their jump packsor dark angels who have a jetbikeand some cool landspeeders.

also i can personalise my space marines how I want with different shoulder pads representing different codexs, different helmets, different markings on the guns eg space wolves, different markings on the back packs.

The actual models look different.

Honestly the models don't look THAT different. BT have a few unique models, DA a few, BA a couple, SW is the closest to being removed enough but then again they are riding fething wolves xD. They aren't all that radiantly different from one another in the end. For the most part, keep in mind that SM are this: Ravenguard, Salamanders, Imperial Fists, Ultramarines, White Scars, BT, BA, DA, SW, etc. For the most part, the marines look the same. A few patches here and there and some minor iconography but everything, in the end is still samey. SW drop pods don't really look much different than Ultramarine drop pods, Salamander land raiders don't look much different than a SW land raider. Yes, they all have their differences and the armies listed above have some extra ways to make themself more personable, but I would never claim they are necessarily the most customizable as much of their variations are the stroke of your paint brush or sticking on some stickers (or cobbling together BT, BA, SM, and etc bits to make something to call your own ). Really though, orks, guardsman, and CSM probably win out on what armies can claim the most diversity.

CSM is SM bits + Chaos bits, tanks can be clean and neat, ramshackled, pirates, renegades, tyrant lords, daemonic entities. The models can look like their armor is from several different marks and they can have claws growing out anywhere. Cultists also are there so every standard guardsman and more can be shoved right on in. Want extra diversity for your CSM army? Grab some Bretonian bits and Warriors of Chaos, you don't even need to look online to add extras.

IG, do I need to explain this one? Want to make an army of mutant beastmen? Go at it. Make a band of pirates? Have fun. A rebelling PDF force, yay! Guardsman are far more diverse in terms of troop choices being capable of drawing from practically any game with human sized models (sense most of them have humans in them ). The tanks offer not as much diversity (arguably SM win out here just because of the capability of adding murals onto vehicles being rather fluffy) but IG have more vehicles and can still make some custom models for it. Maybe you don't want to surf online for them though and want only GW models because you play there, well have no fear! Cultists? Okay guardsman. Slicing tau and making your own Gue'vesa guardsman? Have a blast! Go on over to the fantasy side, grab beastmen, bretonnians, and the Empire models and start building to your dream's content. Heck, make a skaven army and make them an odd mutant race! Oh and ogres can be great options to make your Ogryns look cooler.

Finally you have orks, yes the ork troopers will look much the same, then again Iron Hands and Ravenguard look much the same and it might simply be because SM has 6 different codices or something it probably is , but even then you can kit out some crazy awesome ramshackle guns and ccw as well as armor. The terrain? Oh only Chaos has as many choices.... orks can grab pretty much anything and try to orkify it. And vehicles? Claim all the vehicles ALL THE VEHICLES! So orks have their units, the orks from fantasy, and finally can nab every single vehicle (though probably not fluffy to have a daemon vehicle. CSM yes daemon daemon no) from both 40k and fantasy and make it a chariot pushed by squigs if you so desire!


Anyways, as somebody above mentioned, I think the reason why SM has become so big really is two things. One, what's striking? To many, SM is rather surprising (you wouldn't believe how many people seem to think the Master Chief is an original idea with SPARTANS . Haven't even read Starship Trooper or watched it I suppose) and serves that natural tendency. They are, so to speak, the good guys of 40k. Along with that, they aren't hard to play. Perhaps difficult to master (currently), but they are a relatively forgiving army. Your mistakes aren't really punished as much. Being out of cover, for a beginner, isn't as you are doomed. Your guys have 3+ saves and, whilst not so great when you get more experienced and play more challenging games, will be tanking many shots. They are elite, the few, the proud that fight 1 to 4 in some cases. Not too many models to build, not too many models to paint, not that difficult to paint either. There's very little flesh... simply put, they are easy to paint, easy to build, forgiving, and the "good guys" of the setting whilst also rather elite.

Then there is the other part, they sell well so they get advertise more thus continuing a cycle of them being bigger. They are GW's poster boys and thus always will get preferential treatment. They will have a giant statue of them in the shop, many if not most of the pictures adorning the walls will have a SM of some sort, the books will be loaded with SM, they also get the greatest treatment in terms of codices with the most special rules to really make lists different, as represented by chapter tactics, every starter box has SM, SM have 5 or 6 codices and cover up a large portion of the wall space, they'll hand away free SM models to beginners, and are apparently advertised to beginners to play.