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 McNinja wrote:
The FMCs are described as moving like jump monstrous creatures creatures and use their rules. That's all that matters.

No they aren't.
This really is misleading and causing a lot of problems.

They are NOT described as moving like JMC.
Gliding allows them to be treaded as moving like JMC, so does Swooping.
Unless they have one of those two chosen, then they do not, and cannot use those rules.
When in reserve for example, they cannot be using either.

 McNinja wrote:
The FMCs are described as moving like jump monstrous creatures creatures and use their rules. That's all that matters.

Not true. A swooping FMC is described as moving like jump units. A gliding FMC is described as moving like jump units. However a FMC that is neither swoopoing ore gliding is not described as moving like a jump unit. Before it enters play a FMC can not be swooping or gliding and THAT is all that matters.

 DJGietzen wrote:

How I discuses rules on this forum and how I play are two different things. Please read the tenants of this forum, they are stickied at the top and take note of number 7.

7. Do not bring The Most Important Rule (TMIR) into these rules discussions. While it is something you should most certainly abide by while playing (if you're not having fun, why ARE you playing?), it does not apply to rules debates.

Ahh, Ok sorry!

 DJGietzen wrote:

 McNinja wrote:
The FMCs are described as moving like jump monstrous creatures creatures and use their rules. That's all that matters.

Not true. A swooping FMC is described as moving like jump units. A gliding FMC is described as moving like jump units. However a FMC that is neither swoopoing ore gliding is not described as moving like a jump unit. Before it enters play a FMC can not be swooping or gliding and THAT is all that matters.

Then what is it ?

Fragile wrote:

 DJGietzen wrote:

 McNinja wrote:
The FMCs are described as moving like jump monstrous creatures creatures and use their rules. That's all that matters.

Not true. A swooping FMC is described as moving like jump units. A gliding FMC is described as moving like jump units. However a FMC that is neither swoopoing ore gliding is not described as moving like a jump unit. Before it enters play a FMC can not be swooping or gliding and THAT is all that matters.

Then what is it ?

It's neither. There is no rule requiring to be in a mode

Ah, I get it now. I think the point is...

A FMC moves like a jump MC. The rule which lets it use special rules from Jump MC does not require it to be in a mode, only that the unit moves as a Jump MC.

Glide Mode: Jump MC
Swooping: Jump MC

Neither of the above: Doesn't exist becuase when a MC is moving, it falls into one of the above, all movement rules are there. Doesn't matter becuase this has nothing to do with movement?


Put it this way, when not swooping or gliding, how would YOU describe how it moves in the entry?
Or another way: When is a FMC NOT moving like a Jump MC
(hint, it doesn't include this because it doesn't matter)

 Nem wrote:
Put it this way, when not swooping or gliding, how would YOU describe how it moves in the entry?

It doesn't require a description of how it moves when not Swooping or Gliding.
It only really happens pre-game and in reserve, where there is no movement.

The reserve rules state,

as if they had been positioned just off the board
in the previous turn and moved as normal.

Granted we're talking about DS, I'm not sure if DS over rides this rule?

On top of that what does that mean for a FMC that would be coming on outflanking?

Stormbreed wrote:
The reserve rules state,

as if they had been positioned just off the board
in the previous turn and moved as normal.

Granted we're talking about DS, I'm not sure if DS over rides this rule?

On top of that what does that mean for a FMC that would be coming on outflanking?

The FMC rules cover this. When you arrive from Reserve you choose Swooping or Gliding.

What you can't do is choose one when going into reserve.
So when in reserve it is NOT treated as a Jump unit, so has no access to Deep Strike.

 grendel083 wrote:

 Nem wrote:
Put it this way, when not swooping or gliding, how would YOU describe how it moves in the entry?

It doesn't require a description of how it moves when not Swooping or Gliding.
It only really happens pre-game and in reserve, where there is no movement.

Ok, but the rules say if it's described as moving like a Jump unit it can use the rules for it.

What are the movement rules for a FMC unit?

Infantry units movement rules are up to 6''.
Jump units movement rules are 6'' or 12''
FMC units movement rules are X; like Jump (except..) or Y; like Jump (except...)


What it can and can't do outside the units movement rules shouldn't really be taken into consideration, the unit moves like a Jump MC anytime it can move, the entirety of the units movement rules say it moves like a Jump MC, and fulfills the requirement of movement is described as Jump, all the unit's movement is described as such.

"Units that are described as 'moving like' Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules."

For this not to apply, we would have to show somewhere the unit is not moving like a Jump unit. It can be in either mode (Or none) but the FMC, as a unit, when it moves - Moves like a Jump unit.

 Nem wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

 Nem wrote:
Put it this way, when not swooping or gliding, how would YOU describe how it moves in the entry?

It doesn't require a description of how it moves when not Swooping or Gliding.
It only really happens pre-game and in reserve, where there is no movement.

Ok, but the rules say if it's described as moving like a Jump unit it can use the rules for it.

When?
Only when you select Swooping or Gliding is it described like that.
Not at all times.
So if Swooping or Gliding has not been chosen (in Reserve it can't) then it is not described as moving like that.
How can you use the rules for Jump units when the model is currently not described as a Jump unit? You can't.

For this not to apply, we would have to show somewhere the unit is not moving like a Jump unit.

The FMC rules are very clear on when you can choose Swooping or Gliding.
There are 3 and only 3 times it can be chosen, and in Reserve is not one of them.
1). When it moves,
2). When it is deployed
3). When it arrives from reserve.

That's it. When in Reserve non of the above 3 has happened, you cannot select Swooping or Gliding, so cannot use those rules.

 grendel083 wrote:

Stormbreed wrote:
The reserve rules state,

as if they had been positioned just off the board
in the previous turn and moved as normal.

Granted we're talking about DS, I'm not sure if DS over rides this rule?

On top of that what does that mean for a FMC that would be coming on outflanking?

The FMC rules cover this. When you arrive from Reserve you choose Swooping or Gliding.

What you can't do is choose one when going into reserve.
So when in reserve it is NOT treated as a Jump unit, so has no access to Deep Strike.

I 100% see what you're saying, but the reserve rules tell us to treat the unit as if it had moved as normal in the previous turn. Is there something that over rides that for when the model deep strikes?

 grendel083 wrote:

 Nem wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

 Nem wrote:
Put it this way, when not swooping or gliding, how would YOU describe how it moves in the entry?

It doesn't require a description of how it moves when not Swooping or Gliding.
It only really happens pre-game and in reserve, where there is no movement.

Ok, but the rules say if it's described as moving like a Jump unit it can use the rules for it.

When?
Only when you select Swooping or Gliding is it described like that.
Not at all times.
So if Swooping or Gliding has not been chosen (in Reserve it can't) then it is not described as moving like that.
How can you use the rules for Jump units when the model is currently not described as a Jump unit? You can't.

For this not to apply, we would have to show somewhere the unit is not moving like a Jump unit.

The FMC rules are very clear on when you can choose Swooping or Gliding.
There are 3 and only 3 times it can be chosen, and in Reserve is not one of them.
1). When it moves,
2). When it is deployed
3). When it arrives from reserve.

That's it. When in Reserve non of the above 3 has happened, you cannot select Swooping or Gliding, so cannot use those rules.

The rules say I move like a Jump MC, there is only 2 ways a FMC can move. While I havn't selected them coming in from reserves, I don't have to to use deepsrike, which I already have from the Unit rules saying I move like a Jump MC. There isn't a 3rd mode in regards to movement which the 'described as moving like a jump unit' cares about.

The FMC unit page has the movment rules, there are only 2 ways a FMC can move, and both of them are like a Jump unit. That's all the movment rules need to have other movement based rules apply.

It is pretty amazing to see such wiling ignorance that a condition is attached to a FMC moving like a Jump Monstrous Creature.

If X is doing Y then it moves like Z. If X is NOT doing Y then it does NOT move like Z.

Furthermore the rules are CLEAR when X is allowed to do Y and in this case you cannot do Y when placed into reserves.

This is a nonargument by people either not reading all the rules or by those choosing to nitpick the rules.

 Nem wrote:
The rules say I move like a Jump MC, there is only 2 ways a FMC can move. While I havn't selected them coming in from reserves, I don't have to to use deepsrike, which I already have from the Unit rules saying I move like a Jump MC. There isn't a 3rd mode in regards to movement which the 'described as moving like a jump unit' cares about.

The problem is at the time you go into reserve you have no rule saying you move like a Jump unit.
Swooping or Gliding is the only time they are described as moving like that, and you can't select either when in reserve.
There is no default mode, and it is not described as moving like Jump at all times.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Stormbreed wrote:
I 100% see what you're saying, but the reserve rules tell us to treat the unit as if it had moved as normal in the previous turn. Is there something that over rides that for when the model deep strikes?

That's arriving from reserve, the problem is going into Reserve.

"Units that are described as 'moving like' Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules."

If im not swooping or gliding,

Am I not a FMC unit as described in the BRB?

The FMC Unit rules contain the units movement, which is 100% applied by the rule 'described as'


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 grendel083 wrote:

 Nem wrote:
The rules say I move like a Jump MC, there is only 2 ways a FMC can move. While I havn't selected them coming in from reserves, I don't have to to use deepsrike, which I already have from the Unit rules saying I move like a Jump MC. There isn't a 3rd mode in regards to movement which the 'described as moving like a jump unit' cares about.

The problem is at the time you go into reserve you have no rule saying you move like a Jump unit.
Swooping or Gliding is the only time they are described as moving like that, and you can't select either when in reserve.
There is no default mode, and it is not described as moving like Jump at all times.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Stormbreed wrote:
I 100% see what you're saying, but the reserve rules tell us to treat the unit as if it had moved as normal in the previous turn. Is there something that over rides that for when the model deep strikes?

That's arriving from reserve, the problem is going into Reserve.

It's not described as moving becuase there is no 3rd movement mode. All movement rules are on the FMC page. Gliding, Swooping or not, all movement rules say I move like a Jump Unit.

 Nem wrote:
It's not described as moving becuase there is no 3rd movement mode. All movement rules are on the FMC page.

Yes they are.

As I've posted several times, there are3 (and only 3) times in which you can select Swooping or Gliding.
Until that choice is made they are are using neither mode.

Nothing, and I truely mean NOTHING states that they MUST have a mode selected at all times.
When in reserve they cannot have yet chosen a mode. SO cannot use it's rules.

It's trying to force a player to declare if a missile launcher is loaded with Frag or Krak during deployment. It's not a requirement, and you've got no permission to choose at that stage.

Edit: It's also getting annoying that this is repeated over 3 threads. Can we just stick to one and close the others?

Except the rules do not say that FMC move exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature without condition. A requirement is in place that must be met before a FMC can move exactly like a JMC. You are arguing to be moving like a JMC when you have not fulfilled the requirement.

For those of you that continue to push some state of being when a FMC is placed in reserve, there is none and that is supported by the fact the GW requires that you declare a mode when it enters play from Reserves. You must declare a mode when you enter play because up until that point you are in neither mode and thus not moving like JMC.

Deal with not having a FMC that deepstrikes.

Ok let me see if I understand the two sides here.

Side A: if a unit is described as moving like jump units, it gets the special rules, and thus can deep strike.

Side B: FMCs only are described to move like jump units when moving so they do not get the special rules.

Here is the question. Is there a qualifier for the "move like jump units" clause?

HJ, it is a basic "If-Then" statement.

Gotcha. It's the "does the ability to re-roll to hit rolls of 1 allow you to reroll blasts?" argument.

The rules on pages 10 and 11 tell us how a model can move. The unit types tell us how a model with that unit type moves differently. Pg 49 tells us how a FMC in either swoop or glide mode moves. A FMC that is not in swoop or glide mode would move like a model can move as described on pages 10 and 11. If pages 10 and 11 did not exist then a FMC not in swoop or glide mode would not be allowed to move. Neither of these are situations where the model can move like a jump unit.

Page 47 allows models that move like jump units to deep strike.
Page 49 tells us a FMC does not move like a jump unit unless it is in one of the two flight modes.
It cannot be in one of the two flight modes before it arrives from reserves.
Before a FMC arrives from reserves it does not get the deep strike rule from page 47.

The potential, no matter how great, that is will be able to move like a jump unit at some time later in the game is immaterial. It only matters if it can move like a jump unit at the moment you prepare your reserves for page 47 to apply.

Based on everything I've read in this thread it's clear an FMC can choose to deep strike... Too much nit picking the rules IMO.

Then you havent read any of the rules Dozer because it is not nitpicking the rules, it is two very clear sentences that set the condition.

I think this one is pretty clear. "Treat Gliding FMCs as if they were jump units"...

Jump Units have the Bulky and Deep Strike rules. If you declare that you are bringning in an FMC via Glide Mode, then you can Deep Strike him, or choose not to.

I think what is going on here is the OP doesn't want his opponents to DS FMCs and is using the tried and true "RAW is fuzzy"

But it's not. It just takes some extra reading.

Besides, who cares if someone DS'ed their FMC, you get a whole turn of free shooting at it, and it's in glide mode... so no skyfire needed!

Also, correct me if I'm wrong but that means Riptides can DS too doesn't it?

darkcloak wrote:
I think this one is pretty clear. "Treat Gliding FMCs as if they were jump units"...

Jump Units have the Bulky and Deep Strike rules. If you declare that you are bringning in an FMC via Glide Mode, then you can Deep Strike him, or choose not to.

I think what is going on here is the OP doesn't want his opponents to DS FMCs and is using the tried and true "RAW is fuzzy"

But it's not. It just takes some extra reading.

"Treat Gliding FMCs as if they were jump units"...

When putting a FMC into reserves is it Gliding?

No? then it does not have access to the DS rule.

Besides, who cares if someone DS'ed their FMC, you get a whole turn of free shooting at it, and it's in glide mode... so no skyfire needed!

you might want to retract that...

BRB FAQ wrote:
Q: Does a Flying Monstrous Creature that arrives via DeepStrike count as arriving in Swoop mode? (p49)
A: Yes.

 DeathReaper wrote:

darkcloak wrote:
I think this one is pretty clear. "Treat Gliding FMCs as if they were jump units"...

Jump Units have the Bulky and Deep Strike rules. If you declare that you are bringning in an FMC via Glide Mode, then you can Deep Strike him, or choose not to.

I think what is going on here is the OP doesn't want his opponents to DS FMCs and is using the tried and true "RAW is fuzzy"

But it's not. It just takes some extra reading.

"Treat Gliding FMCs as if they were jump units"...

When putting a FMC into reserves is it Gliding?

No? then it does not have access to the DS rule.

Besides, who cares if someone DS'ed their FMC, you get a whole turn of free shooting at it, and it's in glide mode... so no skyfire needed!

you might want to retract that...

BRB FAQ wrote:
Q: Does a Flying Monstrous Creature that arrives via DeepStrike count as arriving in Swoop mode? (p49)
A: Yes.

So then when a FMC moves on to the board from reserves, what mode is it in ?

Fragile wrote:
So then when a FMC moves on to the board from reserves, what mode is it in ?

Since you pick before moving the model, you pick...

None. Until you choose one and then move it, granting it a plethora of special rules depending on your choice.

rigeld2 wrote:

Fragile wrote:
So then when a FMC moves on to the board from reserves, what mode is it in ?

Since you pick before moving the model, you pick...

Which requires you to pick while off the board?