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 DJGietzen wrote:
It actually changes flight modes at the begging of its move and while the start of its move MIGHT mean the start of the movement phase we actually have a more specific set of rules that deal with when we can choose a flight mode in relation to the deployment of the unit. Very clearly those rules don't let us choose a flight mode until the model has entered play.

But then it exists in a state that currently has no rules governing how it must play. A flying monstrous creature is a different type of model than just a monstrous creature, which is why it has a whole page dedicated to it. It doesn't say anywhere "treat it like such" pre-deployment, either way, but it does have rules that govern it- once it's in play. Considering the absense of rules for how to govern the unit when not in play, I would argue you should treat it as always under the rules of what it's like when currently in play.

 DJGietzen wrote:
Its a permissive rule set. The lack of permission to choose a mode before it enters play or rules staying which of the two modes its in while in reserves means its in neither mode while in reserves. As you can see its not a special rule it obtains for all intents and purposes at all times. There is at least one very specific time it does not have this rule and its this time that is the crux of the argument.

See my previous argument this post. A model that does not have rules for a point in the game cannot be governed.

 DJGietzen wrote:
In a discussion about the rules as intended this would be a valid point. I believe this argument is about the rules as written.

There's a poll at the top of the page which suggests to me it's a HWYPI discussion, not a rules are written discussion.

 SRSFACE wrote:
But then it exists in a state that currently has no rules governing how it must play.

During deployment is a missile launcher loaded with Frag or Krak?

This state is a fiction of imagination, as is the requirement that a model must be in one of those states.

Nothing, seriously nothing, requires the model to be Swooping or Gliding at every given time.
There's no mystical undefined state.

You simply haven't yet chosen Swooping or Gliding.
The rule absolutly supports you not yet making this choice.

So, during deployment: Frag or Krak?

If an FMC is in swoop mode it must move at least 18".

 SRSFACE wrote:

 DJGietzen wrote:
It actually changes flight modes at the begging of its move and while the start of its move MIGHT mean the start of the movement phase we actually have a more specific set of rules that deal with when we can choose a flight mode in relation to the deployment of the unit. Very clearly those rules don't let us choose a flight mode until the model has entered play.

But then it exists in a state that currently has no rules governing how it must play. A flying monstrous creature is a different type of model than just a monstrous creature, which is why it has a whole page dedicated to it. It doesn't say anywhere "treat it like such" pre-deployment, either way, but it does have rules that govern it- once it's in play. Considering the absense of rules for how to govern the unit when not in play, I would argue you should treat it as always under the rules of what it's like when currently in play.

The BRB explains the state all models will be in before additional rules modify that state. In the absence of additional rules the unit would exist in the same state every model exists in before addition rules change this state.

 SRSFACE wrote:

 DJGietzen wrote:
Its a permissive rule set. The lack of permission to choose a mode before it enters play or rules staying which of the two modes its in while in reserves means its in neither mode while in reserves. As you can see its not a special rule it obtains for all intents and purposes at all times. There is at least one very specific time it does not have this rule and its this time that is the crux of the argument.

See my previous argument this post. A model that does not have rules for a point in the game cannot be governed.

This is not the 1st time I've mentioned this. There are rules. PLease read pages 10 and 11 of your rulebook. Those pages explain how a model that is not in swoop or glide mode is allowed to move.

 SRSFACE wrote:

 DJGietzen wrote:
In a discussion about the rules as intended this would be a valid point. I believe this argument is about the rules as written.

There's a poll at the top of the page which suggests to me it's a HWYPI discussion, not a rules are written discussion.

Thats Jim's fault. The poll does not express if the question is what you think the RAW says, what you think the RAI should be, or how you would play it. Its also why the results of the poll cannot accurately reflect the opinion of this forum. I may have anwsered No for RAW, but Yes for HIPWI. However the arguments as explained in Jim's initial post about the poll are RAW arguments. In either case I've explained I am providing a RAW argument, and you have chosen to debate that argument.

 grendel083 wrote:
During deployment is a missile launcher loaded with Frag or Krak?

This state is a fiction of imagination, as is the requirement that a model must be in one of those states.

Nothing, seriously nothing, requires the model to be Swooping or Gliding at every given time.
There's no mystical undefined state.

You simply haven't yet chosen Swooping or Gliding.
The rule absolutly supports you not yet making this choice.

So, during deployment: Frag or Krak?

As long as we're arguing rules that have nothing at all to do with how to work models deployed on the table, let's talk tax laws!

If you're going to make arguments, can you at least be respectful and not pull up things that have no basis with the topic? While I disagree with DJGietzen's reasoning behind that side of the argument, he's laid them out very plainly and without being rude about it. I understand the other side of the argument, I just have the opinion a model that "moves like a jump unit" at any point especially when both states it'll always be in during actual gameplay count thusly gives it all applicable special rules.

The BRB doesn't properly explain how to work Flying Monstrous Creatures if they are not gliding or swooping, hence the reason this is 6 pages long now. Arguing RAW is pointless because the issue is the rules that would clearly define what to do in this case are absent in the first place.

It does have to do with the topic. IMHO, it shows another supposed binary choice that must be fulfilled at all times.

In no way does the brb state a FMC must be in one mode or the other, that it doesn't state what another mode might be or that there is a limited number of states is enough to ruin this binary fantasy in RAW terms at least.

Now as to the deployment is movement... sure fine deployment is movement or at least counts as it. Where is the permission to choose the flight mode prior to deployment? The rules shown so far indicate clearly this choice only arrives at the moment of deployment.

As for the stuff about coming on the edge as if it had moved up to it last turn.... that's really a stretch. A description of how to move models onto the board is not a declaration of what it was doing prior to deployment.

Stating that the rules are absent is like pissing in the corner and saying the toilet should have been there. It's just your opinion and someone decided differently, specifically GW. We can't know what the intended rules were as we're not the design team, we only have the rules as printed. That's it.

 SRSFACE wrote:
The BRB doesn't properly explain how to work Flying Monstrous Creatures if they are not gliding or swooping, hence the reason this is 6 pages long now. Arguing RAW is pointless because the issue is the rules that would clearly define what to do in this case are absent in the first place.

The argument was valid and to the point.
Not only is a choice of missile not needed until it actually shoots, you can't even make the choice until that time. Before it is used, the missile choice simply hasn't been made. There's no strange undefined stage that it cannot exist at. See the similarity?

The rules are absent, because they're not needed.
The absence of a definition isn't game breaking.

Same with a FMC. It's Movment method isn't needed, nor can it be chosen until it actually needs one.
The only reason you would need to know how it moves when in reserve, is to try and take advantage of a rule attached to this mode.

The rules could easily have been written to allow a FMC to move as a JMC by default. Why didn't they? Would have been much easier. Perhaps to stop exactly this. Who knows?
The RaW in this case works perfectly fine.

When in reserve Swoop or Glide cannot be chosen. They are not at this stage described as JMC, so cannot Deepstrike.

The truth of the matter is that people are trying to create a loophole within the rules as written to make it possible to deep strike whereas the RAW is explicit in prohibiting it.

The argument has been exactly that as they are jot even arguing against the rules as written, but this notion that FMC are in some mode eligible for the deep strike rules when it is placed in Reserves. Their proof? Well the rulebook doesn't explicitly say what mode they are in so they assume it kust be gliding or swooping. Guess what argument that is?

"If it doesnt say I can't, I can."

Sorry, not how this ruleset is played. Thread has run its course with one side consistently showing the rules as written and the other creating a very weak attempt at a loophole.

I'm still unsure on RAW, I'm split between one and the other. On the poll I put maybe, so I'm happy to stick with that.

With the poll results though I would expect it. HIWIP yes, though practically I don't see many situations I'd want to DS my FMC's, even when wings gave DS I didn't so can't see it now.

 Brother Ramses wrote:
The truth of the matter is that people are trying to create a loophole within the rules as written to make it possible to deep strike whereas the RAW is explicit in prohibiting it.

The argument has been exactly that as they are jot even arguing against the rules as written, but this notion that FMC are in some mode eligible for the deep strike rules when it is placed in Reserves. Their proof? Well the rulebook doesn't explicitly say what mode they are in so they assume it kust be gliding or swooping. Guess what argument that is?

"If it doesnt say I can't, I can."

Sorry, not how this ruleset is played. Thread has run its course with one side consistently showing the rules as written and the other creating a very weak attempt at a loophole.

I can count the true statements in this post without using any fingers or toes.....

 Steel-W0LF wrote:

 Brother Ramses wrote:
The truth of the matter is that people are trying to create a loophole within the rules as written to make it possible to deep strike whereas the RAW is explicit in prohibiting it.

The argument has been exactly that as they are jot even arguing against the rules as written, but this notion that FMC are in some mode eligible for the deep strike rules when it is placed in Reserves. Their proof? Well the rulebook doesn't explicitly say what mode they are in so they assume it kust be gliding or swooping. Guess what argument that is?

"If it doesnt say I can't, I can."

Sorry, not how this ruleset is played. Thread has run its course with one side consistently showing the rules as written and the other creating a very weak attempt at a loophole.

I can count the true statements in this post without using any fingers or toes.....

You mean all of it? All true?
I agree

A FMC cannot be Swooping or Gliding in reserve. The rules are clear on that.
So how can it be treated am moving like a Jump unit? It can't.
So how can it use the Jump units Deep a Strike rule? It can't.
And no one will put forward any rule saying otherwise.

Is a FMC described as moving like a Jump unit? No. Only when Swooping or Gliding. No other time.

Grendel, I want trying to misrepresent either argument. As I stated, since the only requirement is to be described as moving like jump units, then, since FMCs are described as moving like jump units (conditionally) it works. Which is why, some read that preferred enemy grants blast re-rolls. Of course, by the logic presented in the other thread it also means that every BA librarian could deep strike due to the potential of having Wings of Sanguinius.

BA would have to first successfully cast the spell so it doesn't hold true for them.

 Happyjew wrote:
Grendel, I want trying to misrepresent either argument. As I stated, since the only requirement is to be described as moving like jump units, then, since FMCs are described as moving like jump units (conditionally) it works. Which is why, some read that preferred enemy grants blast re-rolls. Of course, by the logic presented in the other thread it also means that every BA librarian could deep strike due to the potential of having Wings of Sanguinius.

But it doesn't work. How can it? It's not even slightly a conditional statement like blasts and re-rolls.

Orks can sometimes be Fleet (due to a Waaagh!). You're saying they can be Fleet at all times. Using a rule just because sometime in the future they might get it.

It's not a conditional allowance. You're trying to use a rule that at that point it simply does not have.
You can't use a Jump unit rule when the model is NOT a jump unit.

It does not say you can DeepStrike if you have the potential to sometimes be a Jump unit, maybe.

It's a jump unit only at very set times. Not all the time. And not when in reserve.
What allows you to use Deepstrike, when you don't have the jump rules?

I agree with HJ... Except for the BA reference. It's makes the most sense to me.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
I agree with HJ... Except for the BA reference. It's makes the most sense to me.

That you can use a Special rule without having it?

I can see the conditional argument with Blast and re-rolls, but where does something like that exist in Deep Strike?
Does Deep Strike say you can use it if you sometimes have the rule maybe in the future? No it doesn't. The rule says you must have it, and be in reserve. And when in reserve a FMC does not have it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Lets lay it out:
I'm using the Digi-rulebook, so can't give page numbers, so please use the index to check yourselves.

Deep Strike wrote:In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule and the unit must start the game in reserve.

No ifs buts or maybes. The unit MUST have the Deep Strike rule and be in reserve.

FMC - Flight modes wrote:Flying Monstrous Creatures can move using one of two flight modes: Swooping or Gliding.

Can, not must. Nothing requires that they must at all times exist with a chosen flight mode. They have no mode by default.
They do not move as Jump units by default.
So without a flight mode they are NOT a jump unit. And have no access to the Deep Strike special rule.

Now when can they select a flight mode?

FMC - Changing Flight Mode wrote:At the start of its move, a Flying Monstrous Creature must declare whether it is Swooping or Gliding unitl the start of its next turn.

FMC Deployment wrote:A Flying Monstrous Creature that is deployed at the start of the game starts in Glide mode. If a Flying Monstrous Creature is kept in Reserve then as soon as it enters play, you must declare whether it is in Swoop or Glide mode.

I've highlighted the three and only three times you may (in fact must) declare a Flight mode.
1). Start of it's movement
2). When it deploys
3). When it arrives from reserve.

You will note that not one of these times are met when it goes into reserve.
So when going into reserve it is NOT described as a Jump unit and does NOT have the Deep Strike special rule.
As per the Deep Strike requirements (recap: must have the rule and be in reserve) it cannot make use of Deep Strike.

So again I ask:
How can a model that does not have the Deep Strike special rule, use the Deep Strike special rule?

"Unlike most other unit type categories, "jump" is not a classification in and of itself. Instead, you'll find it occurs before another category- commonly infantry, monstrous creatures (etc).
Jump units therefore share two sets of rules, the jump unit rules and those of their base type."

A flying monstrous creature uses two sets of rules, the fmc ones and those for jump units.

Permission granted to place in reserve and deep strike (which is undeniably a move), arriving in the only mode the faq allows them to.

 fuusa wrote:
Permission granted to place in reserve and deep strike (which is undeniably a move), arriving in the only mode the faq allows them to.

Going into reserve is not a move.
Arriving from reserve is.

You need to have the Deep Strike rule when you go INTO reserve.
And at that time the model most certain does not have it.
As it is not described as moving like a Jump unit.

Can you prove that placing a model into reserve is movement? (into, not arriving from)
Either way "movment" is not what is required to let you choose a flight mode.
Here I'll recap the 3 times you can choose:
1). Start of it's movement
2). When it deploys
3). When it arrives from reserve.

Is simply "movement" listed? No it isn't.
Not that going into reserve is movement anyway.

Nothing in your post actually responds to my post.

If you can disprove this, then you'll have a point.

"Jump units therefore share two sets of rules, the jump unit rules and those of their base type."

 fuusa wrote:
Nothing in your post actually responds to my post.

If you can disprove this, then you'll have a point.

"Jump units therefore share two sets of rules, the jump unit rules and those of their base type."

What would you like me to disprove?
I have pointed out that during reserve the model is not a Jump Unit.

The rule you have quoted is for Jump units, why should it apply to a model that is not Jump?

That's the point.
Only when Swooping or Gliding is it descibed as moving like a Jump unit. You agree to that?
When it's neither Swooping nor Gliding it is not a jump unit.
What I've demonstrated is that during reserve it is not Swooping or Gliding. It is not a Jump unit.

So what part of the rule (which it does not at that time have) would you like me to disprove? Because I've proved it doesn't even have the rule.

Other than Swooping or Gliding, is the FMC described as moving like a jump unit?

 grendel083 wrote:
What would you like me to disprove?
I have pointed out that during reserve the model is not a Jump Unit..

No you haven't.
A jump monstrous creature uses two sets of rules, one of those sets of rules includes permission to deep strike.
It does not only use two sets of rules if it moves.

 fuusa wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:
What would you like me to disprove?
I have pointed out that during reserve the model is not a Jump Unit..

No you haven't.
A jump monstrous creature uses two sets of rules, one of those sets of rules includes permission to deep strike.
It does not only use two sets of rules if it moves.

But it's not a Jump Monstrous Creature.
That's the point.

When not Swooping or Gliding, is a Flying Monstrous Creature described as moving like a Jump unit?
Go read the section and return with a quote please.

FMC are not flyers, they can only shoot 2 weapons 360 degree arc of fire, and can only go a max of 36 inches. They have the deep strike rules per FAQ and their codex's. Flyers and FMC are referred as separate types of units so when they removed the deep strike rules from flyers, not form monstrous creatures.

When they enter from deep strike, they choose which movement they are doing, gliding or swooping.

Lungpickle wrote:
They have the deep strike rules per FAQ and their codex's.

There is no such FAQ.
Chaos Daemon FMC have Deep Strike listed. They can absolutley Deep Strike.
There is an FAQ refering to a FMC that can Deep Strike (eg: The Daemon just mentioned), but no FAQ grants Deep Strike to all FMCs.

The FAQ clearly indicates an FMC can deep strike, stop being so obtuse.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
The FAQ clearly indicates an FMC can deep strike, stop being so obtuse.

Prove it.
Becasue it doesn't.

Would there even be a debate here if it did?

Indicates? So it isn't RAW then.

 grendel083 wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
The FAQ clearly indicates an FMC can deep strike, stop being so obtuse.

Prove it.
Becasue it doesn't.

Would there even be a debate here if it did?

It has already been proven and there is no need for endlessly repeating it. You are simply being a bully now.

 Dozer Blades wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
The FAQ clearly indicates an FMC can deep strike, stop being so obtuse.

Prove it.
Becasue it doesn't.

Would there even be a debate here if it did?

It has already been proven and there is no need for endlessly repeating it. You are simply being a bully now.

Excuse me? I'd like an apology for that statement please.

I would not have asked if it has been proven. And there would not be a debate if it had.

Here's your FAQ:

Q: Does a Flying Monstrous Creature
that arrives via Deep Strike
count as arriving in Swoop mode? (p49)
A: Yes

You'll note that it doesn't say what you claimed.
There exists FMC with the Deep Strike USR (Daemons) so it's a relevent FAQ for them. It grants Deep Strike to no one.
I eagerly await your appology.

If a FMC has the deepstrike USR listed then it may deepstrike.

if a FMC does not have the deepstrike USR listed it may not deepstrike.

A FMC may count as something when moving certain ways, however before the battle has begun [ie deployment] there has been 0 movement phases so the FMC doesnt count as anything from its movement as it has had 0 movement.

Saying a FMC can count as having had a movement phase to claim it is in a certain movement mode which is declared at the start of the movement phase [which has not happened yet] is the same as saying any model may use any ability that requires at the start of the movement phase, before the game has begun. Which is incorrect.

a FMC may not deepstrike unless it has deepstrike specifically listed as one of its USRs