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FullFatMayo wrote:
Duke you seem to be very anti anything Dwarf. I have played Dwarf's for about 7 years and although I don't win a great deal I have a lot of fun. Why do you not like the rune system or how Dwarf magic phases go. All you would be doing by giving Dwarf's a magic phase would be, to keep it balanced, reduce there ability to stop magic which turns them into every other army. Why is that useful. I for the sake of an example I could not like playing Ogres because I theoretically think they have too many wounds. Therefore I think in the next book for Ogres they should have 3 times less wounds but cost 3 times less. What would that achieve?

Also why not a steam tank type thing, Empire has them and Dwarf's are meant to be more technologically advanced than them so it makes sense.

Sorry if I sound like I am having a go but I am really just annoyed that people get annoyed about things like Dwarf's which are really not that powerful and accuse them of being broken/out of place so should be taken out completely because they are in fact not broken but are boring to play against. You have any idea how infuriating it is when 1 irresistible force roll on a certain spell can obliterate a large portion of your army even when you are supposedly the best at stopping magic?

The Empire follows a quasi steampunk/renaissance aesthetic.
Dwarves do not. They are more of a stereotypical vikings-with-engineering-degrees sort of thing. Besides Empire already has the Steam Tank as their gimmick. You can't just steal someone's gimmick. That's just rude
Besides, why would they have Steam Tanks in a mountainous region? Wouldn't that be a bit hard to drive? Gyrocopters make sense, as they can fly, but Tanks are a bit impractical for the Dwarves' preferred environment.

Not necessarily, there are famed Dwarven roads that would be perfect for Steam Tanks, as are the vast underground roads that the Dwarves built, again perfect for Steam Tanks...Dwarves are known for moulding their environment to make it as efficient as possible, and an advanced infrastructure is well established.

 Revenent Reiko wrote:
Not necessarily, there are famed Dwarven roads that would be perfect for Steam Tanks, as are the vast underground roads that the Dwarves built, again perfect for Steam Tanks...Dwarves are known for moulding their environment to make it as efficient as possible, and an advanced infrastructure is well established.

Hmm, well in that case, I guess it wouldn't be hard to believe that they would have steam powered bulldozers. I guess that could be their version of the steam tank, and it would fit with the whole industrial-viking shtick. Except choppier.

Also, you get to play this:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Revenent Reiko wrote:
Not necessarily, there are famed Dwarven roads that would be perfect for Steam Tanks, as are the vast underground roads that the Dwarves built, again perfect for Steam Tanks...Dwarves are known for moulding their environment to make it as efficient as possible, and an advanced infrastructure is well established.

Hmm, well in that case, I guess it wouldn't be hard to believe that they would have steam powered bulldozers. I guess that could be their version of the steam tank, and it would fit with the whole industrial-viking shtick. Except choppier.

Think it would have been either with picks or Black Powder and with steam tanks etc. as more conveyance than construction but yes, i agree with the principal. I think the worry is that the gyrocopter is at the cutting edge of Dwarf design as things currently stand and i for one wouldnt want GW to push too far beyond this (if at all) in terms of technology...

I am however of the opinion that a gloem is more likely....or the ridiculous bear riders (which im hoping they leave to Kislev).

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Also, you get to play this:

Perchance it could some sort of unit that burrows across the map, and makes a tunnel allowing for units of Dwarves to show up around the entry? Should counteract the dwarves' slowness.

Kind of like the Trygon's hole. Except better.

Or some sort of make shift stone-thrower, that can run over guys?

*cough* minerssteamdrill *cough*

Wouldnt use 'make shift' but i know where you are going with it....personally, i would stay away from any locomotive as this is the Empire/Kislev's thing (armoured wagon), but as i said, i can see where you are going. Something to help them move faster. Even 4" normal movement but shorter charges? Or vice versa? Would help them get around the battlefield while keeping them slow(ish)

FullFatMayo wrote:
Duke you seem to be very anti anything Dwarf.

Dwarf is what we say it is and it has been wildly different over the years. They were taken primary from Tolkien Dwarves in which case they were mechanical but not machinery. And there wasn't any huge rune blasting magic at all.

Why do you not like the rune system or how Dwarf magic phases go. All you would be doing by giving Dwarf's a magic phase would be, to keep it balanced, reduce there ability to stop magic which turns them into every other army.

Because the rune system isn't balanced with the entire rest of the game and it can't change with the BRB. The point values are all horrendously off and nonsensical. Same way with all the books who haven't been updated but Dwarfs were on a different system.

Stopping an entire phase, which nearly everyone argues is one of the most important phases in the game, is what makes them boring. If TK, for instance, could stop an enemy army from moving whatsoever--shut down the enemy movement phase unless you rolled like 10-12 on charge or had a >6 movement, that would be boring too. It's fine to have armies that are BETTER at phases. WoC is good at CC. Empire can be good at shooting. HE/Liz can be good at magic. Etc. But that is buffing yourself, not shutting down your enemy. Saying, "haha, you can't shoot me, you have no shooting phase," is really boring for other players if they are based around shooting.

Therefore I think in the next book for Ogres they should have 3 times less wounds but cost 3 times less. What would that achieve?

Ogres are a buff to themselves. Ogres don't prevent people from attacking them at all for 3 rounds. If they did, everyone would be screaming at it to change.

 Revenent Reiko wrote:
*cough* minerssteamdrill *cough*

Wouldnt use 'make shift' but i know where you are going with it....personally, i would stay away from any locomotive as this is the Empire/Kislev's thing (armoured wagon), but as i said, i can see where you are going. Something to help them move faster. Even 4" normal movement but shorter charges? Or vice versa? Would help them get around the battlefield while keeping them slow(ish)

Hmm yes, the stone thrower idea does fill the Steam Tank's niche a bit.

Is there any army that has a transport vehicle? I could imagine the dwarves riding around in this theoretical contraption to get around quickly in their mountain lairs, as well as carrying rubble from dig sites. It would be like a dwarven half-track. Would require some specialized rules though. Are there dwarven skirmishers? Could be a mount choice for them.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Hmm yes, the stone thrower idea does fill the Steam Tank's niche a bit.

Is there any army that has a transport vehicle? I could imagine the dwarves riding around in this theoretical contraption to get around quickly in their mountain lairs, as well as carrying rubble from dig sites. It would be like a dwarven half-track. Would require some specialized rules though. Are there dwarven skirmishers? Could be a mount choice for them.

Yeah thats the worry, dont want to step on anyone else's toes...

I could see that. No, no skirmishers (unless Rangers can if they want?) but theres nothing wrong with adding that in, especially for miners etc. a train is another idea of course, but i imagine tracks would be few and far between

Imagine a Deathroller, but bigger. Steam powered of course.

Duke if you think that runes are is unbalanced and that the points costs are horrendously off then you are deluded. I will admit they may not be the funnest army to play against but any Dwarf player will say there least favourite to play against is anything with unbelievable magic that completely dominates because of irresistible force which we can do nothing about. Or with things we cannot win combats against as to have a noticeable damage output we need great weapons and lets face it heavy armour is just not enough in 8th.

Also you should try playing Dwarf's in a non competitive environment. There we are much less likely to castle.

FullFatMayo wrote:
Duke if you think that runes are is unbalanced and that the points costs are horrendously off then you are deluded.

It's math.

>How many points can a Lord carry? 125-150. That is 25%-50% more than any other hero in the game. That is a horrendous point differential which will never ever ever be balanced to the BRB. Every single one of them would have to be repriced if they remained--which they won't.
>How many runes in the Dwarf book? About 60. That is about 600% more than the magic items any other 8th race has access to. That is a horrendous variety differential. They will be removed.

If you want things to not change, play old Dwarfs. But not too old, because they were vastly different. If you want to pretend Dwarfs are fine, you don't need these forums. Or anything. Your game is already done and perfect and you have zero reason to respond to those people who want the game to move ahead since we're clearly interested in different things.

FullFatMayo wrote:
Duke if you think that runes are is unbalanced and that the points costs are horrendously off then you are deluded. I will admit they may not be the funnest army to play against but any Dwarf player will say there least favourite to play against is anything with unbelievable magic that completely dominates because of irresistible force which we can do nothing about

Dwarves are the least fun army to play as and against, because they don't actually play warhammer. They've made a variant of it called cornerhammer. Also, dwarf players have absolutely no right to complain about any aspect of the game being unfun due to cornerhammer.

Makumba wrote:

awesome big ass unit that makes dwarfs even more static and makes the rune lord and even better target for opposing players cannons. it would almost be as bad as having a TK casket .

I was actually imagining it as a little hand-held thing. Maybe a runed triangle would suit you better?

 thedarkavenger wrote:

FullFatMayo wrote:
Duke if you think that runes are is unbalanced and that the points costs are horrendously off then you are deluded. I will admit they may not be the funnest army to play against but any Dwarf player will say there least favourite to play against is anything with unbelievable magic that completely dominates because of irresistible force which we can do nothing about

Dwarves are the least fun army to play as and against, because they don't actually play warhammer. They've made a variant of it called cornerhammer. Also, dwarf players have absolutely no right to complain about any aspect of the game being unfun due to cornerhammer.

You've never been ambushed by the Rangers / Miners / Gyrocopter build yet I assume? Its a bit of a gambit but when it works.....

i think what Duke is saying is that all dwarf players should roll over and let Elves, Skaven, Vamps, TK, Empire, Wood elves, Dark elves, Brets, Lizardmen, Orcs and Goblins, Chaos, Deamons, Ogres... nm forgot what i was going to say but got distracted by the sheer amound of magic everyone ELSE has, maybe Dwarfs should have some sort of... defence if you will, a bonus to stopping magic maybe? ... oh wait, we do! well that makes up for the total lack of acess to magic right?... no? Duke thinks its unfun that we both dont have any magic to throw back AND have magic defence? but isnt that double standards? doesnt he just want yet another magic chucking army on fantasy that relies on the "gewd ol iresistible force Dwellers".

Ok nonsense aside, Duke, you are wrong, flat and simple, Dwarfs had a magic phase way back when and it didnt work becuase we had 1 "wizard" that was stupidly easy to shut down, then you got all the sillyness with miscasts and iresistables, its all nonsense.

The Rune system will be reduced i agree, but should never become the same as other races ones, BRB ones or some other publications, Dwarfs runes are about customization and combos, so what if we dont get acess to the BRB magic items and suffer more expensive magi items as a result, we get to customise ours, that is much better.

It sounds to me Duke that you dont like Dwarfs for whatever reason but dont seem to get how the fantasy ones work, go and read the war of the beard books or Grudgelore (if you can find it these days) fantasy dwarfs are much better than Tolkiens ones and the DnD ones they are based on, much more interesting and ...Dwarfy

 Formosa wrote:
i think what Duke is saying...

You thought wrong.

Your right I was wrong, that's what you ARE saying, not what I think your saying, so if I'm wrong, explain your position as I'm not the only one it's coming across to as anti dwarf magic defence and rune system, if I am wrong I apologise, but from what you have posted so far it doesn't look that way

 snurl wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

FullFatMayo wrote:
Duke if you think that runes are is unbalanced and that the points costs are horrendously off then you are deluded. I will admit they may not be the funnest army to play against but any Dwarf player will say there least favourite to play against is anything with unbelievable magic that completely dominates because of irresistible force which we can do nothing about

Dwarves are the least fun army to play as and against, because they don't actually play warhammer. They've made a variant of it called cornerhammer. Also, dwarf players have absolutely no right to complain about any aspect of the game being unfun due to cornerhammer.

You've never been ambushed by the Rangers / Miners / Gyrocopter build yet I assume? Its a bit of a gambit but when it works.....

I'd like that. It'd make a change from all dwarf lists ever.

Duke may I inquire as to what armies you play with?

Sorry but I have to point this out. You say that its maths why the Dwarf's runes are op. If you are so obsessed with maths you may have taken into consideration the basic part of math called 'counting' with your next part. You say we have 600% more runes to pick than any other army. Just to help you out I have decided to count the amount of runes dwarf's have and the amount of magic items in the BRB which just to points out, only you have access to, not us:

Dwarf runes: 63
BRB Magic Items: 82

Not even including the ones in individual books you have more than Dwarf's.

It is true we have more combinations than every other book but that is counterbalanced by the other disadvantages we have (eg. slow movement, no magic, comparatively slow in combat)

Also the dark avenger you cannot generalise from just dwarf lists you have played. My past few games I have taken no warmachines. Big blocks of infantry but these are never static.

Im with you mayo, I run an all infantry list no warmachines other than the anvil of doom, I may be alone in this but i think the basic dwarf warrior is the best core choice in the game pt for pt, its 8pts for WS 4, T4 ld9 and heavy armour, thats pretty good all things considered

 Formosa wrote:
Im with you mayo, I run an all infantry list no warmachines other than the anvil of doom, I may be alone in this but i think the basic dwarf warrior is the best core choice in the game pt for pt, its 8pts for WS 4, T4 ld9 and heavy armour, thats pretty good all things considered

Actually, I would say the Saurus is better. For 3 more points than a dwarf, he gets a shield, +1S, +1M, +1A, -1LD, -1WS, cold blooded (which is better than LD9) and predatory fighter.

pah ... Slaves FTW ...
cheap as chips and will overwhelm anything .. with a (un)healthy dose of warpstone-powered toyz

You both make good points, but I still think the dwarf edges it out due to cost and high basic ld, saurus.. Well ok there better haha

I'd like to see a sort of, rune or steampowered mech unit, not like monstrous creature, but like, monstrous infantry sized, multi-wound, models. Definently more variety among them.

FullFatMayo wrote:
It is true we have more combinations than every other book but that is counterbalanced by the other disadvantages we have (eg. slow movement, no magic, comparatively slow in combat)

Dwarf players have no right to complain about magic. As they are so good at denying their opponent's magic. And some armies depend on magic to run, I.E. VC or TK.

You can't complain about movement, as dwarf warriors rarely move. And as for slow in combat, you have great weapons and the numbers to make them count. As the dwarf shooting phase is so good, you rarely fight properly, The soldiers mop up.

Don't even get me started on the MRoChallenge. Or the stackable runes of spelleating and spellbreaking. Or the S5 laser guided templates of doom. Or the Flaming, magical cannons.

 DukeRustfield wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
i think what Duke is saying...

You thought wrong.

Ok so you want dwarfs to have no runes , and they don't have mages . They will be just as slow , so melee will still be out of the question , becase everyone will out manuver them , so dwarfs will still play gunline , only now without runes all their machines will be weaker .

You can't complain about movement, as dwarf warriors rarely move. And as for slow in combat, you have great weapons and the numbers to make them count. As the dwarf shooting phase is so good, you rarely fight properly, The soldiers mop up.

And both I and Str based spells wipe whole units of them .I have yet to play a game where one of my dwarf units didn't die form an IF cast spell .
And dwarfs don't move , not because dwarf players wouldn't want an army that plays like all other armies , They don't move because with a movment of 3" they will never reach an opposing army . I tried to make a non gunline list . It always works the same way 3 turns of moving , then get redirected , then multi charged and even if you win , the effect is the same if you didn't move and instead of buying extra models for walking units bought rune cannons and forced your opponent to come to you .

I don't really think we need to get rid of Dwarf runes, but they really need to be brought up to date. I'm not so much leaning towards bound spells as I am more like the anvil, where runes have to be activated, or maybe you have to roll to maintain them.

Ok the one rune I will admit to be unbelievable is the Master rune of Challenge. That is way underpriced but that is one rune, so why the whole system has to go is beyond me.

Also your point on stackable dispel scrolls is almost irrelevant. Yes it does help but all it does is make a level playing field. Also if you really want a spell to go off hit it with 6 dice and at least once a game you will hit off a spell which will happily kill hundreds of points.

I wouldn't know how ridiculous s5 laser guided templates of doom are as I have never used them.

And actually yes I can complain about movement. Having movement 3 sucks and as I have already said I rarely castle up in a corner and if I do it is usually as my main opponent has a 1000 points ironguts deathstar that I have no chance of killing.

Again I can also complain about slow in combat. We are effectively forced into using GW. Getting a 4+ armour and parry save is just not good enough in 8th. So shields are useless and taking neither is silly. You can send any high strength fast unit (White lions come to mind) and any dwarf unit would be wiped off the table, not because we are weak but we are slow so cannot attack back.

FullFatMayo wrote:
Ok the one rune I will admit to be unbelievable is the Master rune of Challenge. That is way underpriced but that is one rune, so why the whole system has to go is beyond me.

Also your point on stackable dispel scrolls is almost irrelevant. Yes it does help but all it does is make a level playing field. Also if you really want a spell to go off hit it with 6 dice and at least once a game you will hit off a spell which will happily kill hundreds of points.

I wouldn't know how ridiculous s5 laser guided templates of doom are as I have never used them.

And actually yes I can complain about movement. Having movement 3 sucks and as I have already said I rarely castle up in a corner and if I do it is usually as my main opponent has a 1000 points ironguts deathstar that I have no chance of killing.

Again I can also complain about slow in combat. We are effectively forced into using GW. Getting a 4+ armour and parry save is just not good enough in 8th. So shields are useless and taking neither is silly. You can send any high strength fast unit (White lions come to mind) and any dwarf unit would be wiped off the table, not because we are weak but we are slow so cannot attack back.

Regrding the stackable scrolls. Forcing IF spells isn't such a bad thing due to the chance that your opponent; A) Hurts his caster so it makes it easier for your war machines to kill said caster. B) Loses said spell. Or, C) Kills said caster.

Regarding, the templates, you must be one of a handful of dwarf players who don't. As every list and it's dog I've seen in my entire experience of warhammer has them.

Regarding the death star, you have multiple options of dealing with them. Ranging from Bolt Throwers to Cannons. Which is the problem with dwarves. To do well in the current meta, you have to stop playing warhammer. Hell, even a gyro to force the gutstar into giving a flank charge isn't a bad plan. Same goes for combo charges.

You complain about being forced into a weapon choice with dwarves? No. We get to complain as we have to either march through all the shooting and get beaten in combat, or hide out of the range of all the shooting for 6 turns.