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Makumba wrote:

And when they are going to be non-dwarfs dwarfs with nerfed game play

You're not making a point. I'm not sure if you're new to forums or to debate, but you keep putting words into other ppls' mouths and saying that Dwarfs will ONLY be nerfed and not buffed in any way whatsoever. Of course that won't happen. Debating that scenario is of no value at all.

For instance, the HE anti-magic banner is too strong. Any DoC player would be within their rights to not play vs. them ever. It's boring and pointless. If they ever FAQ the banner, however, no one is suggesting they remove ALL HE magic items, their magic, their war machines, their rares, their specials. It's just one item.

Dwarfs can be made interesting without forcing people playing them to have a boring game. They have to or no one will play vs. them outside of tournaments. It's that simple.

Wrong duke, as I have tried to put across outside of tourneys Dwarf's are fun to play as/against or they at least are where I am playing. If you are not having fun try toning down your lists and get your friends to do the same and then there are many more possible lists. It is harder to do that with Dwarf's but that is not a result of the runes/magic resist being broken. It is because we only have a limited number of units to use whereas recent books have more.

FullFatMayo wrote:
Wrong duke, as I have tried to put across outside of tourneys Dwarf's are fun to play as/against or they at least are where I am playing. If you are not having fun try toning down your lists and get your friends to do the same and then there are many more possible lists. It is harder to do that with Dwarf's but that is not a result of the runes/magic resist being broken. It is because we only have a limited number of units to use whereas recent books have more.

Having played against dwarves outside of tourneys regularly for a period of 8 months, I can say that they aren't. And as for the lack of units, I've faced wood elf armies that're more fun to play against. As for brets.

You're not making a point. I'm not sure if you're new to forums or to debate, but you keep putting words into other ppls' mouths and saying that Dwarfs will ONLY be nerfed and not buffed in any way whatsoever. Of course that won't happen. Debating that scenario is of no value at all.

Dwarfs have runes since they had their first codex. Ergo dwarfs with runes are dwarflike . What is a dwarf army without runes ?
That of course doesn't mean those can not be taken from dwarfs . They can . Only if that happens , if runes and superior machines are taken away from dwarfs , then they have to get something in return . Magic ? they won't get magic . Movement like everyone else so it doesn't take them 1 extra turn to do the same everyone else does ? won't happen . So maybe MC cavalery or fast moving hard hiting units ? well those gyrocopeters better be made out of adamantium I guess.

As for the altering of the rune system, that doesn't make them have to be able to participate in the movement game. IT just means that they have to have sensible limits. Like limiting the magic deniability, and limiting the grudge throwers/organ guns. Those things are in 99.99% of lists. Which results in Duke being proven right. Dwarves are not fun to play. To the point where they ruine the hobby for the rest of us.

I agree with you . As soon as other armies stop taking lvl 4 mages in every list that can take them .
Dwarfs need magic denial , because magic is devastating and they don't have it themself . they need better machines then others , because there are armies who have both good machines AND great magic at the same time .
If a Dwarf had no runes ,a no magic denial. Then what would they be compering to let say skaven or empire ?

With regards to the watchtower, that scenario you listed is a non-event in most games as most sensible people don't garrison it anyway.

So if instead of tower , I used the word melee it would change anything about the fact that dwarfs get anywhere one turn slower , that if they get redirected by 2-3 FastCav unit the unit is more or less out of the game .

fidel wrote:
Listen at the end of the day the book is not released. None of you have any idea at what they are doing with dwarfs so just calm down, sit back, and wait for the beginning of February. Then we can talk about the dwarf meta

Agreed. An exalt for you good sir.

If the current rune system goes I hope whatever replaces it retains some customization at least. Love playing infantry based dwarves and looking forwards to seeing new models for this army. Hopefully focusing on the races history for favouring dependable technology and tactics.

I think the current dwarf range lacks diversity and anything other than a pretty standard infantry unit or war machine. Hopefully the new dwarf release will rectify this!

fidel wrote:
Listen at the end of the day the book is not released. None of you have any idea at what they are doing with dwarfs so just calm down, sit back, and wait for the beginning of February. Then we can talk about the dwarf meta

Most sensible post I have read all day.

Makumba wrote:

Dwarfs have runes since they had their first codex. Ergo dwarfs with runes are dwarflike . What is a dwarf army without runes ?

Rune is just a word. Literally. They took it from LoTR and it is the Dwarven alphabet. Lizardmen have their own. HE have their own. TK have their own. Even ogres have pictographs. Just because they can write(!) doesn't mean it is instantly converted to a broken and unsustainable game mechanic.

http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Dwarf_Runes

Well, I suppose the hype is... a bit too much. Is this REALLY all they're going to give the Dwarves? A single kit and two new single models? I was just on the GW website and the pre-orders only shows those three things as pre-orders despite them being released... but no actual army book. Is it really just an update in the White Dwarf without a book?

Everyone is ignoring the trends that have seemed to pop up in some of the newer books: special rules/ options.

The engineering runes will be gone, in my opjnion, and moved to the individual warmachine entries. Each one will get certain options for listed costs. This takes away some of the broken combinations but maintains the use of weapon specific runes that dwarf players want/need.

That design will be translated to the other entries as well. Dwarf lord/ thane with certain runs options (basic ones as upgrades with point allotment for special runes in the armory), rune smith/lord specific runes, slayer specific, etc.

This eliminates the huge section of different runes as well as some of the combinations that were broken. Keep some potent/ unique master runes in the armory as the magic items section.

I wouldn't mind a bound spell/rune magic system that mirrored the anvil of doom design throughout the army either. Additional movement spell, reroll to hit spell (shooting and combat), and a damaging spell like the anvil has already.

The big change the dwarfs need is variety and that will come with special rules.

Slayers should charge/ pursue on 3d6, hammerers and miners as is (maybe tweak the miners rules to be more reliable ambushers), ironbreakers need a defensive buff (deny steadfast or shield wall rule to bump more armor), gromgil armor improved to 3+ save...

That's just revamping old stuff... Add in some new toys and that's the book. Monstrous infantry fits more than m cav for dwarfs, new war machines could work as well.

Just my two cents... I'd love for the dwarfs to become less static and, honestly, boring to play with and against.

Pervertdhermit wrote:
Just my two cents... I'd love for the dwarfs to become less static and, honestly, boring to play with and against.

That's the point I've been making this entire thread. They need to have some variety in the book other than artillery.

Yeah, we've been saying that.

And people have been saying the DO have variety.

And we were saying, yeah, but it's bad.

/thread in a nutshell

it would be cool if you could field an entirely competitive infantry army and leave the war machines at home once in a while. unless there was a stronger mobile war machine than the gyrocopter.

Well seeing the gw pre order stuff is disheartening. New characters but no new units... Hopefully more will follow.

Regardless, I agree with what thedarkavenger and dukerustfield have been saying, essentially at least. Dwarfs are boring as a whole. Any army with one build/style of play is boring in the same right.

The people in this thread who believe dwarfs don't need a rework are ignorant... Or perhaps blind.

Umm I am not sure where this needs to be posted but I checked the Games Workshop website and I can't find the Dwarf Army Book. It does not appear in Army Essentials or pre-orders. I thought a new book was coming out? Be grateful if someone could shed some light...

I checked previous postings on dakkadakka but maybe I missed something?

I would guess, with the Weekly release of White Dwarf now. They might stretch out the release of the Dwarf line/future lines.

The new weekly White dwarf issue says "Coming next week: Engineering madness"

So if GW wants to spread out the release and keep it secret they can't release the new book as it will show all units and undoubtedly lots of new pictures.

That being said the partial release is kinda meh.... I mean i love dwarfs but i would never start buying models in any significance without seeing the army book.

No new Book? I've not been following this release much, but I thought it was a "proper" one.

I'm reading into the fact that there's a "WEEK 1 one-click collection". Implies to me that there's more to come. Perhaps it's a new GW sales tactic. Get people into the army with new models and make them buy the old book, then release a new book and make them buy that too...

Yes, it is a new "GW tactic". They seem to want not to release the army book/codex in the beginning of the month. We just don't know when it will be released for now (some rumors say it would be near the end of the month).

Looks like they want to keep the information for themselves as long as possible. People will just have to wait.


About the rune magic system...as an old dwarf player, I would like to have the choice to have something to do during my Magic Phase, instead of doing absolutely nothing because "that's how dwarves are played". Period. Just "canceling" the opponent's Magic Phase is no fun as well, since it's such an important part of Warhammer Battle. That dwarves are good in canceling opponent's magic is one thing...if it's just pointless to play magic against dwarves because they have a ridiculous amount of dispel dices too easily, this is another story.

That's why I would like some "Bound Magic Items" system in the new book - at least as real game options (meaning if you don't want to play the magic phase, you shouldn't be forced to play the magic phase - like you shouldn't be forced NOT TO play the magic phase). We'll see what was GW's choice when we will have the book, eventually.

Let's just hope they didn't do garbage 'cause;

1) they don't care
2) they don't know their own rules
3) they believe dwarves don't have magic phase at all and must all be slow infantry that can only stay in the back and shoot their opponents to death.

GW makes models and army book . People see army book , buy only the good stuff. GW shows models first and then two or three weeks later people see the army book and have to buy even more , because the realy good stuff comes out in week 4.
Also here with return time being limited to week after buying , they wouldn't be able to return stuff and get the good stuff.

Also loled so hard when I saw that 3 units of longbears/hammeres cost almost as much as a playstation 4 here.

 Lexx wrote:

fidel wrote:
Listen at the end of the day the book is not released. None of you have any idea at what they are doing with dwarfs so just calm down, sit back, and wait for the beginning of February. Then we can talk about the dwarf meta

Agreed. An exalt for you good sir.

If the current rune system goes I hope whatever replaces it retains some customization at least. Love playing infantry based dwarves and looking forwards to seeing new models for this army. Hopefully focusing on the races history for favouring dependable technology and tactics.

Well thank you good sir! Like I said guys - ya'll just need to wait until GW "decides" to release their army book (because at least we all agree why they are staggering releases/releasing models first - excellent marketing strategy if you assume people are idiots ).

So at the end of the day - those models look cool, calm, collect, and awesome - and lets all follow suit eh?

Ok will have to wait and see. Glad it was not just me lol

I want to see them put Thorgrim Grudgebearer in the new book and actually have him playable in an army that is under 4k points. Now, you guys are using the word boring wrong. Dwarfs are not boring to play or play against. Boring isn't the right word. They are not boring, they are predictable. Some people find predictable un-enjoyable to play against but that doesn't mean it is boring.

I have and do play the Dwarf ambush lists against people and I've made even Warriors of Chaos players panic. when you are in panic mode you are definitely not bored. In a list like that the Warmachines become a distraction that your opponent has to deal with. The next thing he knows is dwarfs are popping up in his lines charging into his flanks and causing all kinds of havoc. It doesn't just rely on Bugman either but he does help if you can take special characters. We do have cheap redirectors and cheap chaff but very few people have been using them because they aren't used to having them. they are called Slayer heroes.

Before 8th edition Dwarf players were not used to having any redirectors because the slot system did not allow us to use the Slayers as redirectors. There just weren't enough slots to do so. Now that we can take a lot of them we can use them as chaff and redirectors.

If all you have ever played against is a castling dwarf army then I suggest you ask your local Dwarf players to start using the ambush list. Tell them there are other ways of playing Dwarfs than just gunlines.

But now that soon we will have a new book I think you will find a completely different type of Dwarf army to play against. I look forward to your complaints about them in the future as it gets entertaining listenting to you complain, wether justified or not, it is certainly fun to read.

 The Shadow wrote:
I'm reading into the fact that there's a "WEEK 1 one-click collection". Implies to me that there's more to come. Perhaps it's a new GW sales tactic. Get people into the army with new models and make them buy the old book, then release a new book and make them buy that too...

The army book has gone as has the gyrocopter.

-.- anyone saying dwarfs should lose their rune magic items and dwarf runelords should have bound spells, you are not a real dwarf *grumble*. We're dwarfs we don't do change!!! that's from them newfangled engineers and look how often they blow something up... like their ear drums.

Dwarfs have more magic weapons then most of the races in Old word and not one of them are ever the same, they are all crafted to be individual as it is a waste of time to remake something so it doesn't matter that it doesn't fit the currently table top world, it fits Old world and the fuff of the dwarfs. What you are asking is to have part of the soul of the dwarf book removed, something that dwarf plays have loved more over 10 years. The fact they had magic items you could personally make was at one point a selling point of the army. You just don't take something like that way if you care about your fan base (but given GWs record.....). Yes the dwarfs need an update and a little more verity in their army book, but their current book is 9 years old most of the armies back then didn't have much to pick from, that was the game back then. The removal of the Runic Magic items, willn't do that, the loss of custom magic items will not add or subtract units that are available to be fielded. It will only remove something that makes the dwarfs stand out, not make them more interesting to play.

As for the magic phase a dwarf army that didn't want you to have one, kept you from having one. That is by no way anything new, khorne armies use to be even worst. Could that maybe use a little rebalncing since the magic phase has become more important, yes, but a phase so random is hard to blance.

The only wizard I can ever recall the dwarfs having was the Anvil of doom in the book before the current one. During that time it suck and dwarf players hated it. Dwarfs have never had much in the terms of a magic phase and unless I am mistaken giving the dwarfs bound spells similar to the empire war priest doesn't solve anything since most bound spells can be despelled with one dice meaning the magic phase would be dull for the dwarfs.

I'm a little bummed that it doesn't look like Slayers are getting new sculpts. All the other old metal models (Hammerers, Ironbreakers, Gyro) are gone but not only are the Slayers still available there's even a 1-click package for them. Shame...

Roadkill Zombie wrote:
Now, you guys are using the word boring wrong. Dwarfs are not boring to play or play against. Boring isn't the right word. They are not boring, they are predictable. Some people find predictable un-enjoyable to play against but that doesn't mean it is boring.

It is ridiculous to try and tell people what they are allowed to find boring. Numerous people have stated the exact same thing and somehow you're trying to tell them they are wrong and they really do like it?

 DukeRustfield wrote:

ChrisAsmadi wrote:
Fun isn't really measurable, though.

Of course it is. Watch:


IS IT FUN TO PLAY AGAINST DWARFS AS THEY CURRENTLY ARE IN YOUR EXPERIENCE?

I've ran up against dwarfs twice in the past year. both times both lists were similar. 3 big units, 2 war machines, anvil. bsb. Fun, yes. but it's hard to get points off those big ld 8 or 9 blocks.

Well even though there are only 2 new kits being shown I've got to say as a long time Dwarf fan/player I LOVE the new models. The amount of detail is insane which is fitting for a race of long lived craftsmen, the dwarves look as proportional as they've been shown in the art for some while. If this is just the first glimpse of a greater release then this will be my doorway back into WHFB.

If all you have ever played against is a castling dwarf army then I suggest you ask your local Dwarf players to start using the ambush list. Tell them there are other ways of playing Dwarfs than just gunlines.

You can't make the list without a special and specials are banned in many places . You could as well be saying to take some FW units to make dwarfs armies.

What places ban special choices?