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Maybe the same ones where you tell your opponents what you should use against you so it isn't boring...

 DukeRustfield wrote:

Roadkill Zombie wrote:
Now, you guys are using the word boring wrong. Dwarfs are not boring to play or play against. Boring isn't the right word. They are not boring, they are predictable. Some people find predictable un-enjoyable to play against but that doesn't mean it is boring.

It is ridiculous to try and tell people what they are allowed to find boring. Numerous people have stated the exact same thing and somehow you're trying to tell them they are wrong and they really do like it?

I'm not telling you what you are allowed to find boring, I'm telling you that I don't think that word means what you think it means.

Not interesting, tedious, predictable.

/shrug

The interest is there for the first few games, but the second two make the first more and more likely.

That is what I read him as meaning.
I am certain DukeRustfield will correct me if I am reading it wrong.

I am excited for new things to change this up.

Look. It is fine if he believes playing against Dwarfs or playing Dwarfs is not interesting, tedious, predictable, whatever. But making the claim that the majority of the people that play dwarfs or against them feel that way is ridiculous. The forums here and everywhere else are a very small percentage of the population of people that play these games. And out of all of the people that come on to these forums, even a smaller portion of those ever bother to even post anything.

I've travelled quite a bit and when I do get to new game stores I tend to ask the same question. That question is, "do you guys visit any of the gaming forums for 40k or Warhammer fantasy?" Very few people even bother coming to the forums. In the last game store I went to, there was exactly 1 person that went on the forums out of 26 people. And he said the only reason he does is to get conversion ideas from some of the pics in the gallery.

So making the claim that almost everyone finds them boring is patently silly when you consider the actual number of people he would have to know to reliably make such a claim.

Roadkill Zombie wrote:
Look. It is fine if he believes playing against Dwarfs or playing Dwarfs is not interesting, tedious, predictable, whatever. But making the claim that the majority of the people that play dwarfs or against them feel that way is ridiculous. The forums here and everywhere else are a very small percentage of the population of people that play these games. And out of all of the people that come on to these forums, even a smaller portion of those ever bother to even post anything.

I can speak for the majority of the ENTIRE UK TOURNAMENT SCENE, when I say that Dwarves are not fun to play.

Roadkill Zombie wrote:
making the claim that the majority of the people that play dwarfs or against them feel that way is ridiculous.

As ridiculous as stating otherwise, no?

 thedarkavenger wrote:

Roadkill Zombie wrote:
Look. It is fine if he believes playing against Dwarfs or playing Dwarfs is not interesting, tedious, predictable, whatever. But making the claim that the majority of the people that play dwarfs or against them feel that way is ridiculous. The forums here and everywhere else are a very small percentage of the population of people that play these games. And out of all of the people that come on to these forums, even a smaller portion of those ever bother to even post anything.

I can speak for the majority of the ENTIRE UK TOURNAMENT SCENE, when I say that Dwarves are not fun to play.

Wow, that's a pretty bold statement. Care to back it up with concrete proof that you speak for the majority? Also, as others have said, who cares about tournament scenes. Tournaments do not make up the majority of Warhammer players. GW has even said this. They make their money off of the guy playing in his basement with his mates, not the tournament crowd. The tournament crowd only buys what they think is most powerful and skip everything else. GW would never make much money if they only sold to the tournament crowd.

Also, think about WHY you think they are boring. could it be because everybody brings the exact same list to every tournament in your area? I do admit that it would get boring to play against the exact same list every time you played but that is not the case for all dwarf players everywhere. I've seen quite a few players in quite a few stores that have ditched the castling up dwarfs and gone for more themed lists with slayers or miners or the Dwarf Ambush lists. I've seen lists with 3 gyrocopters and bolt throwers and no cannons. I've seen Ironbreaker heavy lists and rangers. I've seen strollaz lists with dwarfs moving more quick than you think they should. I've seen them in all kinds of ways. None of that has been boring as it is exciting to see what kind of tricks the Dwarfs try to pull off.

When you take out the tournament mentality of playing Warhammer, the enjoyment level for a lot of the people I have talked with has gone up when playing or playing against Dwarfs. Because the Dwarfs don't have to rely on just the gunline. It opens up whole new possibilities with playing them.

You guys have to remember, the tournament scene does not own warhammer. They do not get to say what is fun and what isn't fun. They have no authority over anyone but the people who go to the tournaments. So maybe dwarfs are boring for you guys because you only see one list. But for those of us who don't always see just the gunline, they are fun.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 kirsanth wrote:

Roadkill Zombie wrote:
making the claim that the majority of the people that play dwarfs or against them feel that way is ridiculous.

As ridiculous as stating otherwise, no?

No, because I make no claim to know what everyone thinks. I make no claim saying that everybody thinks they are boring to play or play against.

I didn't make the claim that everyone thinks they are boring, nor did I make the claim that everyone thinks they are fun. I did say the tournament scene thinks they are boring because all they ever see is a gunline castle army. But others see much more. so it would be valid to say some people think they are boring and some don't, which is all I have ever said about it when you read back through my posts.

Roadkill Zombie wrote:

 kirsanth wrote:

Roadkill Zombie wrote:
making the claim that the majority of the people that play dwarfs or against them feel that way is ridiculous.

As ridiculous as stating otherwise, no?

No, because I make no claim to know what everyone thinks. I make no claim saying that everybody thinks they are boring to play or play against.

That is not what you wrote.
You claimed that someone stating that most have an issue playing against them is wrong. Which is stating that most playing against them do not find them boring.

I made no claims to either side, but you did.

Roadkill Zombie wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

Roadkill Zombie wrote:
Look. It is fine if he believes playing against Dwarfs or playing Dwarfs is not interesting, tedious, predictable, whatever. But making the claim that the majority of the people that play dwarfs or against them feel that way is ridiculous. The forums here and everywhere else are a very small percentage of the population of people that play these games. And out of all of the people that come on to these forums, even a smaller portion of those ever bother to even post anything.

I can speak for the majority of the ENTIRE UK TOURNAMENT SCENE, when I say that Dwarves are not fun to play.

Wow, that's a pretty bold statement. Care to back it up with concrete proof that you speak for the majority? Also, as others have said, who cares about tournament scenes. Tournaments do not make up the majority of Warhammer players. GW has even said this. They make their money off of the guy playing in his basement with his mates, not the tournament crowd. The tournament crowd only buys what they think is most powerful and skip everything else. GW would never make much money if they only sold to the tournament crowd.

Also, think about WHY you think they are boring. could it be because everybody brings the exact same list to every tournament in your area? I do admit that it would get boring to play against the exact same list every time you played but that is not the case for all dwarf players everywhere. I've seen quite a few players in quite a few stores that have ditched the castling up dwarfs and gone for more themed lists with slayers or miners or the Dwarf Ambush lists. I've seen lists with 3 gyrocopters and bolt throwers and no cannons. I've seen Ironbreaker heavy lists and rangers. I've seen strollaz lists with dwarfs moving more quick than you think they should. I've seen them in all kinds of ways. None of that has been boring as it is exciting to see what kind of tricks the Dwarfs try to pull off.

When you take out the tournament mentality of playing Warhammer, the enjoyment level for a lot of the people I have talked with has gone up when playing or playing against Dwarfs. Because the Dwarfs don't have to rely on just the gunline. It opens up whole new possibilities with playing them.

You guys have to remember, the tournament scene does not own warhammer. They do not get to say what is fun and what isn't fun. They have no authority over anyone but the people who go to the tournaments. So maybe dwarfs are boring for you guys because you only see one list. But for those of us who don't always see just the gunline, they are fun.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 kirsanth wrote:

Roadkill Zombie wrote:
making the claim that the majority of the people that play dwarfs or against them feel that way is ridiculous.

As ridiculous as stating otherwise, no?

No, because I make no claim to know what everyone thinks. I make no claim saying that everybody thinks they are boring to play or play against.

I didn't make the claim that everyone thinks they are boring, nor did I make the claim that everyone thinks they are fun. I did say the tournament scene thinks they are boring because all they ever see is a gunline castle army. But others see much more. so it would be valid to say some people think they are boring and some don't, which is all I have ever said about it when you read back through my posts.

I can back that up by seeing most competitive UK players say that they hate dwarves. It's a pretty common opinion over here that you should only play dwarves once per event. As for the money making, in the UK at least, the competitive scene outweighs the fluff scene. As demonstrated by the amount and the size of the tournaments here. ((SCGT being almost 200 players last year.))

As for your points about tournament lists being the same, that is true. But as someone who played dwarves regularly for a period of 8 months outside of tournaments in my local club. I'm saying now. The book is stale, rigid and deeply flawed. You say dwarves have choice. They can choose between hitty troop A, and hitty troop B. Troop B can shoot you. There you have your choice. So I say again. The variety in the dwarf book is lacking at best. This results in the majority of dwarf lists being the one list that works.

And yes. The tournament scene doesn't say what is and isn't fun. Players do. And I've not encountered a single player in my entire experience playing warhammer (Since '07) who has said they enjoy playing dwarves.

Hey dark avenger, 17+ year dwarf vet here, come to Norfolk and give me a tourney game with my dwarfs some time, I will happily prove you wrong and show you that dwarfs are not boring to play against

Btw it's not a gunline or an ambush list, what do you play?

 kirsanth wrote:

Roadkill Zombie wrote:

 kirsanth wrote:

Roadkill Zombie wrote:
making the claim that the majority of the people that play dwarfs or against them feel that way is ridiculous.

As ridiculous as stating otherwise, no?

No, because I make no claim to know what everyone thinks. I make no claim saying that everybody thinks they are boring to play or play against.

That is not what you wrote.
You claimed that someone stating that most have an issue playing against them is wrong. Which is stating that most playing against them do not find them boring.

I made no claims to either side, but you did.

Someone stating that most have an issue playing against them IS wrong because he cannot possibly know that many people. . That isn't quite the same as "stating that most playing against them do not find them boring". I made no such conclusion. What i did do is point out that he cannot possibly know enough people to make that sort of assumption about Dwarfs.

GW has said many times that their money doesn't come from the tournament scene but instead comes from the non tournament scene. They said they don't make a game for competition but instead for tea and biccies. That is who their target market to sell to is. the 14 year old playing warhammer on the kitchen table with his mates, not the 26 year old tournament goer. With that in mind, how can anyone possibly know all of those people considering the amount of money GW makes? How many non tournament goers are there compared to tournament goers? World wide, that is a lot of people. So claiming that the majority of those people hate playing against dwarfs is BS and we all should know that. It is impossible to say how many people hate them compared to how many like them because we honestly don't know that many people.

Forgot to address your tourney point dark avenger, sorry to say it but it's a load of old tosh, dwarfs are rare as hell at every tournament I.have been to and some I was the only.one, so if it's true what your saying (and I doubt it very much) people don't want to play against dwarfs because (like 40k) they have factored in the top tier lists and dwarfs wasn't one of them, thus they have there (unusually) magic heavy forces shut down, there (usually) monster mash army shot down and lastly have to come to the dwarf because they (usually) can't sit back and magic crap to death or use superior movement to get around, it's these reasons people don't want to play dwarfs, because they are not able to factor in the bogey race that appeared to ruin their score.
To counter your anecdotal evidence with some of my own, every tournament I.have been to I have been praised for even useing my dwarfs, not one person EVER has complained that i or others have used dwarfs.

Roadkill Zombie wrote:
Someone stating that most have an issue playing against them IS wrong because he cannot possibly know that many people. .

Prove it.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 kirsanth wrote:

Roadkill Zombie wrote:
Someone stating that most have an issue playing against them IS wrong because he cannot possibly know that many people. .

Prove it.

editing to add:
Pics or it did not happen.
How is it confusing that playing that same army every time is boring?
Especially when the player states "I have no other option." Guessing you think people who state that lie more than you.
Or is the assertion that something else is played?
Or is it that it is fun to play against one army that has a single tourney build so that you can counter it? Nice.
Every Dwarf player I know wants the new book to make their army fun.
The random folk that don't have similar opinions but then add flak.

Or wait.
I get it. I play Tyranids.
That is a list, right? So it works despite logic?


(next up, someone who thinks I cannot win with Tyranids!)

I want a new book because it's old and outdated not because it's boring, it is boring to "allegedly" tourny players is total crap, I and admittedly few other dwarf players that actually go to the UK tourney scene have NEVER encountered this alleged bias EVER, we love our little stunties because they are dwarfs and look cool, we have a cool and unique customization mechanic, cool units like slayers and rangers, the bloody anvil of doom, a helicopter!! all of that and more is what makes dwarfs fun, just because according to a few people here "all dwarf players do gunline at tourneys" doesn't mean it's true, because it's not.

Roadkill Zombie wrote:
I want to see them put Thorgrim Grudgebearer in the new book and actually have him playable in an army that is under 4k points. Now, you guys are using the word boring wrong. Dwarfs are not boring to play or play against. Boring isn't the right word. They are not boring, they are predictable. Some people find predictable un-enjoyable to play against but that doesn't mean it is boring.

I have and do play the Dwarf ambush lists against people and I've made even Warriors of Chaos players panic. when you are in panic mode you are definitely not bored. In a list like that the Warmachines become a distraction that your opponent has to deal with. The next thing he knows is dwarfs are popping up in his lines charging into his flanks and causing all kinds of havoc. It doesn't just rely on Bugman either but he does help if you can take special characters. We do have cheap redirectors and cheap chaff but very few people have been using them because they aren't used to having them. they are called Slayer heroes.

Before 8th edition Dwarf players were not used to having any redirectors because the slot system did not allow us to use the Slayers as redirectors. There just weren't enough slots to do so. Now that we can take a lot of them we can use them as chaff and redirectors.

If all you have ever played against is a castling dwarf army then I suggest you ask your local Dwarf players to start using the ambush list. Tell them there are other ways of playing Dwarfs than just gunlines.

But now that soon we will have a new book I think you will find a completely different type of Dwarf army to play against. I look forward to your complaints about them in the future as it gets entertaining listenting to you complain, wether justified or not, it is certainly fun to read.

Please post a tactica or something when the new book drops. I have some dwarves but don't want to run them solely as a gunline. Dwarves ftw

 kirsanth wrote:

Roadkill Zombie wrote:
Someone stating that most have an issue playing against them IS wrong because he cannot possibly know that many people. .

Prove it.

That's not how burden of proof works. Roadkill Zombie isn't the one making the broad sweeping statement that requires proof; he's disputing it. Duke Rustfield made the statement, he's the one who needs to provide proof for his assertions.

That being said, the dwarf book is in dire need of an update, but if you take away their lack of offensive magic, runes and give them cavalry, they won't be dwarfs anymore; they'll be a slightly tougher Empire army, but fewer numbers. At which point, why bother bringing out the army at all?

What dwarfs need is for their elite infantry to be a viable counter/counterpart to the heavy cavalry/deathstars of other races (even, or maybe especially, when charged), so they can once again do something other than castle in and force the opponent to come to them through a hail of cannonballs - which are currently the only viable counter to said deathstars.

 Formosa wrote:
I want a new book because it's old and outdated not because it's boring, it is boring to "allegedly" tourny players is total crap, I and admittedly few other dwarf players that actually go to the UK tourney scene have NEVER encountered this alleged bias EVER, we love our little stunties because they are dwarfs and look cool, we have a cool and unique customization mechanic, cool units like slayers and rangers, the bloody anvil of doom, a helicopter!! all of that and more is what makes dwarfs fun, just because according to a few people here "all dwarf players do gunline at tourneys" doesn't mean it's true, because it's not.

Dwarfs are always boring to other factions. More factions have magic , then those factions that don't have it . More factions have problems with cannon sniping then not . Unlike dwarfs multi wound stuff like MC, MC cavalery is offten used , so an army that can kill those things will be seen as boring and not fiting in to the game . Magic+monsters+sometimes machines vs armies that use the same combinations is ok and "fun" , an army that does makes your stuff suck and can cost you a tournament , will not be liked. oddly enough when dwarfs machines aren't snipers , dwarf anti magic isn't good because people are drowning you in power dice and suddenly dwarfs are just a bad army , you don't see the tournament people say "oh we win against dwarfs every time , that is boring , let us make them better".

So what your saying mukamba, is that cookie cutter tourney armies don't like it when an army turns up that isn't another cookie cutter tourney army and tourney players get pissed?

Sod them, normal people who play Normal games find dwarfs plenty fun, tourny players are completely meaningless when it comes to the design of the game and if they want to try to claim that people find playing dwarfs boring because as tourney players they are trying to distill every army down into only the competitive choices.. That sounds boring

One thing dwarves could bring back is Pikes.

A unit that can fight in 4 ranks normally, 5 if in Horde, could be interesting. Especially if the pikes did something else cool.

Why would underground dwellers have pikes? I can't think of a worse weapon for them. Except maybe giant inflatable rafts.

But on the dead horse of dwarfs being boring, of course the forums aren't everyone who games. But they are a representative subset. That's how polling works. No one goes out and asks every single living human about a subject (except the every decade US census, because we're cool like that).

I find it amusing though, that we tried to say they were dull, people said nuh uh, then enough people agreed, then they said, these forums don't matter. I get the sense if we polled every human in the UK then it would be, "Well england is a small country."

Because Dwarfs aren't fighting underground exclusively.

I can't imagine cannons to be very practical in a tunnel fight but they still have them.

And you could still clog up a larger tunnel very effectively with a few pikes.

 DukeRustfield wrote:
Why would underground dwellers have pikes? I can't think of a worse weapon for them. Except maybe giant inflatable rafts.

But on the dead horse of dwarfs being boring, of course the forums aren't everyone who games. But they are a representative subset. That's how polling works. No one goes out and asks every single living human about a subject (except the every decade US census, because we're cool like that).

I find it amusing though, that we tried to say they were dull, people said nuh uh, then enough people agreed, then they said, these forums don't matter. I get the sense if we polled every human in the UK then it would be, "Well england is a small country."

I think the folks in the thread view corner dwarves as a combat army. Like every dwarf player I've met. Since 2007.

I like dwarfs. I rally rally do. But if you get called a turtle online, it's generally not a compliment. You're denying action. I mean, a turtle is a really dull pet compared to a dog. Turtles can't catch frisbees or hump legs or do anything except move really slowly and hide.

I don't expect the dwarves to get any more interesting if they are stuck with the same old models. So far the release is a HUGE disappointment. I was expecting a big release, obviously not as big as the Dark Elves, but far bigger then it has been.

This continues to harden my belief that GW only caters to Fantasy because it HAS to, for it would much rather spend its time on 40K.

The new Dwarf models are great, but if the rumors are true, and there is only one more release coming, as well as a named character, then this release has fallen completely flat for me. I look forward to them getting rules that make them a more diverse opponent, but so far I have nothing to lead me to believe they will be any less stale.

 Matt1785 wrote:
I don't expect the dwarves to get any more interesting if they are stuck with the same old models. So far the release is a HUGE disappointment. I was expecting a big release, obviously not as big as the Dark Elves, but far bigger then it has been.

I'm not sure how you expect a weekly release to work, but it isn't that.

They release bit by bit, to build tension and excitement.

As for the rumours, I doubt it's true, but time will tell. Dwarves already have a plastic core box which, all things aside, isn't that bad. I mean the GW poses are silly, but there are worse sculpts. LOOKING AT YOU DOOMFLAYER. All they really need is a plastic slayer box, and new, fun, rules.

What's wrong with the doomflayer model? It's a rolling ball of death. Looks fine to me.

Good grief I was just reading this form and all I can say

 Purifier wrote:
What's wrong with the doomflayer model? It's a rolling ball of death. Looks fine to me.[/quote

A lot of things. The sculpt is fine. But the rat riding another rat looks bad. And the fact that it's steered like a classic arcade game is silly.

And it isn't a hamster in a spiked ball.

Not to mini-mod here or anything, but can we please move off whether dwarves are or are not boring to play against or too shooting orientated or mono-build or never seen in tournaments yaddah yaddah yaddah...

It's a subject that's been discussed almost to death - and by all means start another thread - and I for one genuinely want to discuss the upcoming dwarf release and what it may mean for the faction.

What direction do you think they'll take the Slayers in? The new Dragon Slayer model - which is one point of discussion, why is it not a Daemon Slayer - is very dynamic and quite un-dwarfy, even for a Slayer. Interesting, if you ask me.

I didn't ever want to see slayer blocks. I like the idea of one man slayers to take on any odd (like the first round of combat the slayer gets a +1 save because he ignores al types of wounds) or something equally ridiculous that makes them the actual... you know... SLAYER