Mindshackle Scarab: how to stop them?

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**skoffs**

Akar wrote:
Necrosis wrote:
Kills the mss from long range, with no saves or coming back from the dead.

K, am I missing an FAQ or did they change the wording on how this works?

You're going to have a hard time getting to the MSS if it's in the middle or rear of a unit. IIRC (Im not an eldar player), D weapons only generate hits equal to the number of models if it's a line attack. I don't think there is anything in there to get around the normal Casualty Removal rules, like 'JotWW does. Only other possible way to get at him, is with Indirect fire, and the LoS rolls can be made.

Pretty sure that D-weapons only inflict ID on a 6, which really only matters if it's hitting something T6, and doesn't have the 'remove models from play' rule like the earlier versions did. The 'Instant Death' rule disappeared with the last codex. Instant Death no longer prevents Reanimation Protocols like it used to. So there is nothing there that gets around it, unless it expressly prevents it in the Weapons profile in the Eldar Dex (which I don't have, and I've not seen anyone use them against me yet). If it doesn't say it there, then it's still not really an issue since the BRB FAQ cleared it all up to the relief of Necron Players.

BRB FAQ
Q: If a model is ‘removed from play’ due to such effects as failing
their Initiative test against ‘Jaws of the World Wolf’, does this
count as being removed as a casualty? (p15)
A: Yes.

Again, I don't have an Eldar Codex, so if you have a page number, I'll look it up next time I'm around one. I'm happy to know if it's incorrect for if/when I actually see them against me on the table. However, if it doesn't expressly state that Necrons do not get a Reanimation Protocol, then it would be an effect of the attack, much like JotWW, so would count as a casualty. Then all you've managed to do is remove all the wounds on the MSS model before it gets to you. Which would really only matter if it's an Overlord/D-Lord, since everything else that can take it have 1 wound anyways.

...
Destroyer strength weapons (D) disallow saves and specifically cites Necron Reanimation Protocols.

Do you not have the Apocalypse/Escalation books?

**Akar**

No, I have ZERO plans to play Apocalypse games. I gave up playing all-day games back in 2nd ed. Rather just get together for a normal game for an hour and have a good time. I haven't cracked an Escalation book either, as I thought that, and all the others are 'Optional' rules, and probably won't be in your run-of-the-mill tournaments. I'm aware that some of them contain rules that have been made official, but those have been addressed in FAQ's.

Is the Escalation book an official, non-optional book? If so, then I'm in the wrong and I'll have to pick up and Escalation book. And also apologize to Necrosis as I misunderstood and thought you were talking about Distort Weapons.

EDIT: Not an issue for me either way, as I usually only run 1 MSS in the army and only if I can't find a better use for the points.

**extremefreak17**

Escalation is an official part of the game.

**Akar**

Well, that's just sad...

Guess I'll have to pick up a copy, and go from there.

**skoffs**

Well, if the rumors pan out and 7th edition ends up coming out this year (or "6.5", as most people are calling it), you might not need to buy the book, as the new rules will be included then.

**GoliothOnline**

I hate MSS personally, but that's because I'm a Chaos Player, and all my poor little tards have to accept challenges.

Sure I could feed the lord my Sergeant, but if he has any upgrades (Which will most likely be the case since he's most likely a melee unit) He's pretty much a walking waste of points. Sure, if I put an IC in the group and feed him my Sergeant, the IC will completely destroy the unit while the Sergeant dies horribly, (which I guess makes sense fluff wise!) But that still doesn't solve the problem of MSS being a bitch to both deal with and being so easily accessible on almost all Necron Lords

**Phi-666**

Kill the overlord in CC with fearless models.

**skoffs**

GoliothOnline wrote:
I hate MSS personally, but that's because I'm a Chaos Player, and all my poor little tards have to accept challenges.

Sure I could feed the lord my Sergeant, but if he has any upgrades (Which will most likely be the case since he's most likely a melee unit) He's pretty much a walking waste of points. Sure, if I put an IC in the group and feed him my Sergeant, the IC will completely destroy the unit while the Sergeant dies horribly, (which I guess makes sense fluff wise!) But that still doesn't solve the problem of MSS being a bitch to both deal with and being so easily accessible on almost all Necron Lords

Well, what do you expect?
With i2, Necrons suck at CC. They needed to give them some kind of balancing factor, and as far as assault deterants go, MSS is pretty high up there.

**Formosa**

Phi-666 wrote:
Kill the overlord in CC with fearless models.

Mss doesn't care about fearless, it's a leadership test not a morale or pinning.test

**Akar**

GoliothOnline wrote:
I hate MSS personally, but that's because I'm a Chaos Player, and all my poor little tards have to accept challenges.

Sure I could feed the lord my Sergeant, but if he has any upgrades (Which will most likely be the case since he's most likely a melee unit) He's pretty much a walking waste of points. Sure, if I put an IC in the group and feed him my Sergeant, the IC will completely destroy the unit while the Sergeant dies horribly, (which I guess makes sense fluff wise!) But that still doesn't solve the problem of MSS being a bitch to both deal with and being so easily accessible on almost all Necron Lords

As above, on the turn you charge, keep the MSS Model of out Base contact and you won't have to deal with it on that turn. Also, you can move your character into the back during the movement phase, and keep him outside of 2" on the charge. It's a bit tricky, but you then are ineligible to issue/accept, then you can still swing against the unit on the pile-in, unless you're running a lower initiative than the unit he is with.

skoffs wrote:
Well, what do you expect?
With i2, Necrons suck at CC. They needed to give them some kind of balancing factor, and as far as assault deterants go, MSS is pretty high up there.

Good, keep perpetuating the myth we suck in CC.

skoffs wrote:
Well, if the rumors pan out and 7th edition ends up coming out this year (or "6.5", as most people are calling it), you might not need to buy the book, as the new rules will be included then.

I probably won't pick it up, just need to look over the rules so it's not a shock if/when I see it.

**GoliothOnline**

As above, on the turn you charge, keep the MSS Model of out Base contact and you won't have to deal with it on that turn

How does this help though? It's stated on page 64 of the BRB that you must attempt to move the models in a challenge into base 2 base with each other. And if that isn't possible you must switch a model that IS in Base 2 Base with your model. Now for CSM, it's impossible to actively find work arounds outside of multiple characters in the same unit, to feed the lower and more useless characters (Being Sergeants predominantly) into the challenge and allowing the character that is for the most part, better, to wipe the squad while the challenge persists. You also HAVE to declare a challenge with CSM characters. Don't forget, there is NO WAY to decline one. So I'm not really sure what you mean by "Keep the MSS model out of Base Contact" It's impossible. The MSS model MUST be in base contact with A CSM Character.

**Akar**

GoliothOnline wrote:
As above, on the turn you charge, keep the MSS Model of out Base contact and you won't have to deal with it on that turn

How does this help though? It's stated on page 64 of the BRB that you must attempt to move the models in a challenge into base 2 base with each other. And if that isn't possible you must switch a model that IS in Base 2 Base with your model. Now for CSM, it's impossible to actively find work arounds outside of multiple characters in the same unit, to feed the lower and more useless characters (Being Sergeants predominantly) into the challenge and allowing the character that is for the most part, better, to wipe the squad while the challenge persists. You also HAVE to declare a challenge with CSM characters. Don't forget, there is NO WAY to decline one. So I'm not really sure what you mean by "Keep the MSS model out of Base Contact" It's impossible. The MSS model MUST be in base contact with A CSM Character.

First, on the turn you charge, you have control of the resolution of simultaneous events. (Pg. 9) So if there are no models in base contact on the turn you charge you force the MSS to resolve while there is nothing in base contact, then issue the challenge. If you take the lord down in the challenge and he gets back up, he is no longer in a challenge. If he gets back up, (again following Pg.9), then the Cron player can issue the challenge and THEN use the MSS. If you take the Lord down on his assault phase, he'll most likely NOT be in base contact with your character on your assault phase, so you can force him to use the MSS on models that are in base contact with him, then issue the challenge.

YES, there is a way to DECLINE challenges, even as a CSM player. Re-read the challenge rules. Models that can't fight or strike blows (including those that are not engaged), cannot issue or accept challenges. Over on Pg. 23, a model is only engaged IF during it's initiative step it's in base contact, or withing 2" of a friendly model in base contact. It's very easy to control the charge now and use other models in the unit to prevent those characters from getting within that 2" of a friendly model on the turn you charge, unless you're running small squads. When challenges are declared, if that character is outside of the 2" of a friendly model, he can't issue/accept challenges, even if you're a CSM player. Then you check to see if he becomes engaged when the pile-in happens at each initiative step.

The MSS model MUST be in Base contact to work, whether that is a character is really up to you on the turn you charge.

**GoliothOnline**

Page 64 states "To issue a challenge, nominate a character in one of your units locked in the combat to be the challenger." It does not state you need to be "engaged" or any of the sort.

**Akar**

GoliothOnline wrote:
Page 64 states "To issue a challenge, nominate a character in one of your units locked in the combat to be the challenger." It does not state you need to be "engaged" or any of the sort.

Last line of 2nd paragraph, and 3rd paragraph on same page.

**GoliothOnline**

Good catch

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Im going to have the abuse the living hell out of this now.

**Akar**

GoliothOnline wrote:
Good catch
Im going to have the abuse the living hell out of this now.

It's the main reason that I don't spam them. Once I learned about this, I just started playing games assuming that ALL of my opponents know this. Even when my Phaeron w/MSS is in a situation like this, if he's not in base contact with my opponents models or outside of a challenge, I just tell my opponent when they go off rather than hope he slips up. It saves time, and surprises opponents when you're up front.

EDIT: Here's a CSM tip, that you might find useful, if nothing more than to frustrate the hell out of the Necron player. Run your CC Bad-arse Character in a large block of Marines with an Asp. Champ. that has no upgrades. Keep them BOTH out of the challenge on the turn you charge. If you don't break the unit, the crappy Asp. Champ then accepts the challenge on his Assault phase, putting your heavy hitter out of MSS and against the unit. If you STILL haven't broken the Necron unit, at least on your Assault phase, your Heavy Hitter still won't be in base contact with the MSS when you force him to use them.

Punching inflatable clown. (Jury is still out on this one), but every time you take down a Lord, you should get to roll on the table, even if the Lord gets back up. (Yes, Im telling you all this as a Necron player)

**schadenfreude**

I2 makes a unit worthless in cc. Mobs of 30 ork boys, 20 necron warriors, nurgle deamons, and units of 10 immortals tremble in fear once my squad of 10 guardsmen with i3 get into charge range. Nob bikers flee 3d6 when my melta vets break them in cc, but in the rare cases when I don't just sweep them with my superior inititive.