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mangrove yeti wrote: I outflanked 9 warriors with devourers against a space wolves player. Completely blew away a whole unit of buffed thunder wolf cavalry, and was a huge thorn in his side the rest of the game. Totally worth it in my opinion!
That seems to be huge luck though. Devourers only wound TWC on a 5+, and they have a 3+ armor save, and Warriors have mediocre BS of 3. 9 Warriors should have only killed maybe 1, on average.
I think I'm liking the sound of outflanking warriors more and more though.
mangrove yeti wrote: I outflanked 9 warriors with devourers against a space wolves player. Completely blew away a whole unit of buffed thunder wolf cavalry, and was a huge thorn in his side the rest of the game. Totally worth it in my opinion!
That seems to be huge luck though. Devourers only wound TWC on a 5+, and they have a 3+ armor save, and Warriors have mediocre BS of 3. 9 Warriors should have only killed maybe 1, on average.
1.47 wounds...50/50 shot of killing one thunderwolf.
Stormbreed wrote: I would rather outflank a Prime with 30 Devilgaunts, more wounds to chew up, and 90 Str 4 shots!
But I agree I think outflanking is a great advantage for Nids now, combine that with the new data slates and you have a lot of models able to show up early and often!
I have considered this idea as well, because you get more shots and you have a larger number of models to soak up wounds, which I think it's great Tyranid HQ's are IC's now. But the problem with this unit is that it will be hard to get 30x models in a good position to utilize the most damage, plus its a pain trying to fit on the table without getting targeted by multiple units.
Primes have always been ICs. Nothing has changed. It is the only IC so no need to pluralize HQ.
Stormbreed wrote: I would rather outflank a Prime with 30 Devilgaunts, more wounds to chew up, and 90 Str 4 shots!
But I agree I think outflanking is a great advantage for Nids now, combine that with the new data slates and you have a lot of models able to show up early and often!
I have considered this idea as well, because you get more shots and you have a larger number of models to soak up wounds, which I think it's great Tyranid HQ's are IC's now. But the problem with this unit is that it will be hard to get 30x models in a good position to utilize the most damage, plus its a pain trying to fit on the table without getting targeted by multiple units.
Primes have always been ICs. Nothing has changed. It is the only IC so no need to pluralize HQ.
Thanks for the heads up, still new to the Tyranids so I have a lot to learn. As for the 30x Termaguants, its not a bad idea however not only do I like the Warriors better for there ability to survive longer and dish out S5 shots, and I doubt you would be able to get all 30x Termaguants to shoot in one turn. The Prime with the Warriors would be a much more effective option, plus you can give the Prime a Venom Cannon and use him to snipe any vehicles if needed.
Could scare me as a Tau player. I've never been a fan of intercepting with the large blast personally. Too dang unreliable when I can wait for my turn and shoot it at BS 6+.
To be completely honest I think my best response to this would be to empty my Sky Ray into it. And that's great news for a Tyranid player because it means I'm not shooting it at their big boy MCs or their flyers.
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BrianDavion wrote: Between the two of us... I think GW is assuming we the players are not complete idiots.
Rapidly on path to becoming the world's youngest bitter old man.
dementedwombat wrote: Could scare me as a Tau player. I've never been a fan of intercepting with the large blast personally. Too dang unreliable when I can wait for my turn and shoot it at BS 6+.
To be completely honest I think my best response to this would be to empty my Sky Ray into it. And that's great news for a Tyranid player because it means I'm not shooting it at their big boy MCs or their flyers.
You realize BS doesn't affect template weapons right?
Automatically Appended Next Post: So there is literally no difference. But if you want to let deepstrikers come in and melt your armor before you shoot them that's your choice.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/01/30 00:49:01
Spellbound wrote: No it doesn't. Gets hot is not a to-hit roll. It's a get hot roll. The shot is never fired if you get hot.
BS 1, 3, 10 doesn't matter. Neither does twin-linking. Nothing helps your gets hot roll.
I have seen this chewed through a lot in YMDC so it seems contested. If his group goes with it then makes since. All tournies I have played in allow the reroll for TL/high BS.
Gets Hot and Re-rolls If a model has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit (including because of BS 6+, or Twin-linked), a Wound is only suffered if the To Hit re-roll is also a 1; it may also re-roll Gets Hot results of 1 for weapons that do not roll To Hit.
Seems pretty straight forward to me.
I don't play this game particularly competitively, but I do know my rules (at least the ones I use often, the rest are a vague haze to me).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/01/30 01:37:54
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BrianDavion wrote: Between the two of us... I think GW is assuming we the players are not complete idiots.
Rapidly on path to becoming the world's youngest bitter old man.
Remulus wrote: Wow I'm really liking this 9 outflanking warriors idea. - Of course, I don't like circumstantial evidence, it seems pretty legitimate.
It is a nice tool for Tyranids, and pretty fun to use.
- and if it really messes with tau i would be very happy.
(also I am a major fan of the warrior models and would be interested in basing a force around them)
'
In my experience there are two things that Tau players hate the most from the Tyranid book. A nasty outflanking unit hitting on the flank or Mawlocs bursting from underneath. Both are extremely effective against gun-line lists such as Tau and IG, plus being S6, I have seen my Mawlocs kill whole teams of battle suits once they appear from underneath of them. As for the riptides, get a swam of Hormaguants into them and let them have fun. Needless to say, the outflanking Warrior unit honestly did a lot better then I thought it would, and I am tempted just to take two Tyrants for I can take two units of outflanking Warriors just for kicks lol.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/01/30 02:56:26
I'm actually impressed the Prime has a positive result considering how expensive he is.
Oh sorry, just skipped to the end...yeah...the points include the prime?
His calculations show the weapons with and without the prime. The prime has a positive result(even if small).
EDIT: Oh i see the question now, I bet they don't.
Damn, and I was liking the prime again. I just can't find an excuse to run him instead of another tyrant.
The calculations do include points for the prime, here are the totals I used:
Unit
9 War 280
9 plus Prime 405
9 War + DS 320
9 plus Prime + DS 450
Edit:
For comparison, pure devilguant broods come out at 8pts/wound vs T3 and 10.7pts/wound against T4. They're 3-4 times more efficient damage-wise, albeit not as survivable.
I'd probably lean toward 2 Tyrants with Hive Commander and 2 devilguant broods (using 20 dev / 10 fleshborer). They should virtually wipe out most infantry in one round of fire.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/01/30 09:01:20
xttz wrote: For comparison, pure devilguant broods come out at 8pts/wound vs T3 and 10.7pts/wound against T4. They're 3-4 times more efficient damage-wise, albeit not as survivable.
I'd probably lean toward 2 Tyrants with Hive Commander and 2 devilguant broods (using 20 dev / 10 fleshborer). They should virtually wipe out most infantry in one round of fire.
And I'd still attach the prime.
A prime in the right place can wreak havoc on an army.
I'm actually impressed the Prime has a positive result considering how expensive he is.
Oh sorry, just skipped to the end...yeah...the points include the prime?
His calculations show the weapons with and without the prime. The prime has a positive result(even if small).
EDIT: Oh i see the question now, I bet they don't.
Damn, and I was liking the prime again. I just can't find an excuse to run him instead of another tyrant.
The calculations do include points for the prime, here are the totals I used:
Unit
9 War 280
9 plus Prime 405
9 War + DS 320
9 plus Prime + DS 450
Edit:
For comparison, pure devilguant broods come out at 8pts/wound vs T3 and 10.7pts/wound against T4. They're 3-4 times more efficient damage-wise, albeit not as survivable.
I'd probably lean toward 2 Tyrants with Hive Commander and 2 devilguant broods (using 20 dev / 10 fleshborer). They should virtually wipe out most infantry in one round of fire.
For 300 Points I can run 2 Carnifexes with 2 TL Devourers for 24 S6 TL Shots. I can't outflank that, but it seems so dramatically better than 9 Warriors with 27 S5 Shots Which cost 315 + 20 to Outflank.
At least 30 Devilgaunts put out 90 S4 Shots for a cost of 240 + 20 to outflank seem like a much more viable option.
Running a list like this would give you an amazing turn 2 Alpha Strike (Beta Strike?):
Flyrant (2 TL Devourer, Hive Commander) - 250
Flyrant (2 TL Devourer, Hive Commander) - 250
Dozer Blades wrote: Comms relay and as many units deep striking, outflanking from reserves as possible. You want more units than the Tau can intercept... This what I like to call the Critical Overload Factor (COF).
That is what I am counting on with my list. I have 5 units of deepstrikers and one outflanking unit with @9 infitrators right now.
Everyone is entitled to there own opinion tag8833, however there are pros and cons when running either Warriors or when running Termaguants. Warriors are a lot tougher, have 3x S5 shots each, 3x wounds each, and can have access to a heavy weapons such as a Barbed Strangler or a Venom Cannon. Also, they are Synapse Creatures! Meaning I don;t have to worry about taking any checks unlike Termaguants which is huge as all it takes is for you to lose Synapse and your running off the board.
30x Termaguants w/Devourers true can have the potential to get 90x shots which is great, but placing that many models in a good position when flanking can be a pain. And to be frank, I have had more success and have survived a lot more enemy shooting when I ran the Warriors, as I can position them better to cause the most damage, which you can't really do with Termaguants. Also, Termaguants die to a stiff breeze, which is never good.
As for the Prime, I think he would be a great option for this unit. Like the idea of kitting him out with either Twin-Linked Devourer's w/Brainleech Worms or a Heavy Venom Cannon to give me some much needed anti-tank. Thoughts?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/01/30 16:21:00
Rommel44 wrote:
30x Termaguants w/Devourers true can have the potential to get 90x shots which is great, but placing that many models in a good position when flanking can be a pain. And to be frank, I have had more success and have survived a lot more enemy shooting when I ran the Warriors, as I can position them better to cause the most damage, which you can't really do with Termaguants. Also, Termaguants die to a stiff breeze, which is never good.
The idea behind the guants is to throw out enough firepower to wipe out units, preventing them shooting back at all. Worst case if they do die, you're only out half the points. Probably I'd skim a few points by taking ~25 guants with 15-20 devourers, making it easier to manoeuvre the unit and get most of them in cover.
The point difference between the full Warriors and a devilgaunt brood that does more damage is enough to buy alternative extra synapse, such as Zoanthropes, Shrikes, or even just a basic 3-strong Warrior brood with a heavy weapon.
Rommel44 wrote:
As for the Prime, I think he would be a great option for this unit. Like the idea of kitting him out with either Twin-Linked Devourer's w/Brainleech Worms or a Heavy Venom Cannon to give me some much needed anti-tank. Thoughts?
Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:The Prime can't get TLD, can he? Or the HVC?
A Prime can only take a Deathspitter or regular Devourer, no MC weapons unfortunately. One Prime could take a Miasma cannon though, if you fancy some long range anti-infantry sniping alongside a VC or BS in the Warrior brood.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/01/30 16:40:18
Summed up we get 145/36 = 4,027 Inch average scatter distance.
We will only scatter 2 of 3 times so we get our final result: 290/108 = 2,685
So ductvader and dementedwombat are right.
Still have to mention that you cant calculate the average scatter distance by substracting the BF-modification from the unmodified average, because there are no negative scatter ranges.
Any questions?
Sry, couldn't resist.
@Topic: i think this outflanking warriors are a real nice option and i cant say whether i would prefer the gants or the warriors. Both have their benefits. Luckily I dont have to make a decision with my pure CC army.
Played a game with the 'offensive' tyranid warrior brood. I chicken out in using a full strength squad due to being a 1500 point game. I opted for a 6-man warrior squad with a miasma-bonesword-prime attached. I was fighting a primary foot space marine list.
In summary, the battle was a hard fight, and I was getting stomped objective-wise, but I had the warriors outflanked, and did not get my choice of board-edge, so they came in 3rd-turn out-of-position. They did manage to target a unit of tactical marines and knock three down with their firepower.
My opponent countered my warrior squad by outflanking a full unit of bikes. He had two meltas, and heavy bolter attack bike in the mix and was using the chapter trait to allow re-rolls of 1 (mainly for his heavy bolter). He managed to kill two warriors (one from the melta, and the rest from bolter-fire). In response on my next turn I lit the bikes up and managed to take two down (mainly from the miasma cannon) and I assaulted. His snapped fire fumbled and I was able to save the two wounds I received (prime led the charge). In close-combat I took another down thanks to the prime's bonesword. Won combat, and the bikes passed leadership.
From that point the close-combat lasted till the end of the game, though the warriors were slowly winning thanks to the bone-sword, but wasn't killing them fast enough for the bikes to break or wipe them out by end-game. By turn five I had 2 warriors and the prime left and he had three bikers.
I think I would've finished the fight if I had the full squad, but even if I won the combat, their position was bad enough they wouldn't not have been able to affect the outcome of this battle. At best they would've been able to shoot at another unit of tactical marines. I am thinking of adding another pair of bone-swords to make close-combat finish faster. The prime's ability to grant BS4 & WS 5 proved invaluable in placing the fight in my favor.
Overall, I am still impressed with the unit, it did manage to tie up his bike squad the entire game, and his bikes have always been a thorn in my side. It was fun as a counter to it, and I believe the point costs of his bike squad was near equivalent to my warrior squad ( I think his squad was around 310 pts to my 340pt squad). Very interesting match-up.
Niiai wrote: I have a questions. This was possible in the old codex as well. Why was it never used then?
Because 9/10 people paid for a drop pod and called it done. You didn't need to invest in a specific rule to move your troops forward.
"There is a cancer eating at the Imperium. With each decade it advances deeper, leaving drained, dead worlds in its wake. This horror, this abomination, has thought and purpose that functions on an unimaginable, galactic scale and all we can do is try to stop the swarms of bioengineered monsters it unleashes upon us by instinct. We have given the horror a name to salve our fears; we call it the Tyranid race, but if is aware of us at all it must know us only as Prey."
Hive Fleet Grootslang 15000+
Servants of the Void 2000+
Niiai wrote: I have a questions. This was possible in the old codex as well. Why was it never used then?
Because 9/10 people paid for a drop pod and called it done. You didn't need to invest in a specific rule to move your troops forward.
Not to mention that it would have been more reliable back then too (Swarmlord reserve buffs, maximum threat overload with Devilgaunts/Doom/Dakkafexes, etc)...
2500pts 
2000 
