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Do you see Slann as fighting on the side of Chaos potentially or is that a typo? This makes me wonder if when/if the librarian had an audience with a Slann the knowledge of the old ones would suprise him. I'm not sure how much a very, very knowledgeable citizen of the imperium (like a librarian) would know about the Old Ones. Assuming, as all this does that the universes are somehow connected.

I replied to the original question, to which your reply was phrased as a counterargument which invalidated the first post.

If you want to change the perimeters, sure, a company of space marines could lolstomp battle weary humans, elves, dwarves and what not. Same way they could certainly just lolexterminus the entire planet. Not really something worth discussing.

Seeing as in your first post you mentioned something I said in my re-set then you already knew I was asking about different parameters. Are you currently lying or just confused?

You don't think this is worth discussing at all... so why are you here?


Edit-- also why are you saying ' sure, a company of space marines could lolstomp battle weary humans, elves, dwarves and what not.' as if that is something I said? I said that even in that situation, I didn't think it was possible. Are you lying to misrepresent me now or do you have a serious reading comprehension problem?

Could it depend on the chapter the company is from? If you're talking about a straight up fight then if they go to war with the entire world then probably not. Then get wiped out in the way others have said or turn it into another Armageddon (not that it isn't now. Don't know much about that storyline.) If it comes down to tactics that perhaps more could be done. Ravenguard might do very well with stealth/guerrilla tactics. Hit and run. Sow confusion in enemy ranks. The Salamanders would probably take anything that would maintain their gear. Then there's whoever would look for defectors to help the cause. But for any Marine company when the ammo runs out they still have armor and melee weapons. They could probably repair or rearm provided they secured and beachhead.

 Psienesis wrote:

Actually, the bolded part isn't true. Once upon a time it was, sort of, but over the past, oh, decade or so, GW has been taking steps to ensure that they are as separate as possible. There are a few nods to the other product lines in a few scattered sources, but the Old World is not a planet trapped in a Warp Storm, it is not an alt-history Terra (it has 2 moons, after all), it's not... anything, anything at all, in the 40K universe.

Never liked the idea of both game existing in the same universe. Like it would somehow ruin WHFB by either limiting it's potential or hard to explain why the 40k types don't find a way in and change everything.

 StarTrotter wrote:
Not quite. It's Space Marines + High Elves + Dwarves + Bretons + Wood Elves (maybe) + the Empire + maybe Slann v.s. Vampire, Undead, Slann?, Orks, Beastmen, Ogres, Chaos Daemons, Warriors of Chaos, and Chaos Daemons. Also it implies allying with High Elves and Wood Elves that might be familiar as Eldar (that they might just think are more dark eldar). And to be honest, at this point it would really mainly be just Fantasy vs Fantasy with 100 or so marines running around to help.

Also at this point I pause and say, if SM could get here, why wouldn't chaos daemons just become more 40k like as well? But that's more of just a curiosity at it all.

That's interesting and I don't know. The differences between the 40k deamons and WFB deamons are significant but then you have guys like Belakor. I have assumed in the past that something involving the Slann and the Old Ones is what prevents the WFB deamons from being the same as the deamons in the wider world.

Same with Orks, the WFB variety just feel weedier to me than the 40k ones, especially the Octavian warbosses and guys like Thrakka

I don't believe your seeing what he said. he said the space marine may [/b]use[b] the forces of order, USE. unless im still half asleep (its like 3 am here) I don't think that he means they directly ally, more that they subtly guide them. also, I don't care how many orks are hitting me, if my armour cant be damaged, im ok.
10000000000 leaves is not going to damage a rock. and the magic peoples get mind raped by the librarian. [/terminators]

 Silverthorne wrote:
Do you see Slann as fighting on the side of Chaos potentially or is that a typo? This makes me wonder if when/if the librarian had an audience with a Slann the knowledge of the old ones would suprise him. I'm not sure how much a very, very knowledgeable citizen of the imperium (like a librarian) would know about the Old Ones. Assuming, as all this does that the universes are somehow connected.

I didn't mean to place them on the side of Chaos. More like.... I can't quite tell if they would really ally entirely with the forces of order. Keep in mind these are the guys that screwed over dwarves cause MOUNTAINS MOVE! I could see them just getting pissed that SM were there claiming it doesn't fit in. Along with that, I wouldn't say their knowledge of the old ones would be surprising as much as... what are the old ones? I find it, personally, rather unlikely most librarians even know what the Old Ones are, and that doesn't even factor in it is unlikely that the Slann's old ones are the same as 40k's. Along with that, you mentioned chaos being more dependent on the warriors of chaos. By this theory of universes, it would arguably work just like in 40k rather than how it functions in fantasy making them even more threatening.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Silverthorne wrote:

 StarTrotter wrote:
Not quite. It's Space Marines + High Elves + Dwarves + Bretons + Wood Elves (maybe) + the Empire + maybe Slann v.s. Vampire, Undead, Slann?, Orks, Beastmen, Ogres, Chaos Daemons, Warriors of Chaos, and Chaos Daemons. Also it implies allying with High Elves and Wood Elves that might be familiar as Eldar (that they might just think are more dark eldar). And to be honest, at this point it would really mainly be just Fantasy vs Fantasy with 100 or so marines running around to help.

Also at this point I pause and say, if SM could get here, why wouldn't chaos daemons just become more 40k like as well? But that's more of just a curiosity at it all.

That's interesting and I don't know. The differences between the 40k deamons and WFB deamons are significant but then you have guys like Belakor. I have assumed in the past that something involving the Slann and the Old Ones is what prevents the WFB deamons from being the same as the deamons in the wider world.

Same with Orks, the WFB variety just feel weedier to me than the 40k ones, especially the Octavian warbosses and guys like Thrakka

I think it really has to do with them being brought to keep a relative playing field with the rest of them. In 40k, chaos daemon outcrops really feth over planets. Such a small planet that has had holes into the warp almost eternally ripped open in the top and bottom of the planet, in 40k, would pretty much devestate the planet within at most a few decades (which would be surprising if the consistency was so high). Orks proably run the same that or orks aren't adapted to getting boltered (or just to be balanced out as usual. Also they don't get to ride space rocks to smash into enemies )

 StarTrotter wrote:

 Silverthorne wrote:
Do you see Slann as fighting on the side of Chaos potentially or is that a typo? This makes me wonder if when/if the librarian had an audience with a Slann the knowledge of the old ones would suprise him. I'm not sure how much a very, very knowledgeable citizen of the imperium (like a librarian) would know about the Old Ones. Assuming, as all this does that the universes are somehow connected.

I didn't mean to place them on the side of Chaos. More like.... I can't quite tell if they would really ally entirely with the forces of order. Keep in mind these are the guys that screwed over dwarves cause MOUNTAINS MOVE! I could see them just getting pissed that SM were there claiming it doesn't fit in. Along with that, I wouldn't say their knowledge of the old ones would be surprising as much as... what are the old ones? I find it, personally, rather unlikely most librarians even know what the Old Ones are, and that doesn't even factor in it is unlikely that the Slann's old ones are the same as 40k's. Along with that, you mentioned chaos being more dependent on the warriors of chaos. By this theory of universes, it would arguably work just like in 40k rather than how it functions in fantasy making them even more threatening.

in 40k, chaos
is
very dependent on cults. the chaos marines are like very few in number to the amount of cultists. almost every planet has a least one chaos cult.

Wait chaos marines? I wasn't even mentining CSM. I was actually speaking of Warriors of Chaos which are really just hordes of chaos worshippers. So I really don't get your point. Along with that, we also have to factor in the north and south pole literally are both mini eye of terrors that are fueling the warp in a completely different way than elsewhere (which would likely cause problems to librarians)

Right and it's more important in 40k to have cults because you are cut off in material space and have to form a breach to bring deamons in. CSM I guess could just show up using physical means but the Imperial Navy probably makes that a risky haul.

But on the Fantasy Planet you have the rift, right there, all the time, so I guess cults in the cities aren't as important.

 StarTrotter wrote:
Wait chaos marines? I wasn't even mentining CSM. I was actually speaking of Warriors of Chaos which are really just hordes of chaos worshippers. So I really don't get your point. Along with that, we also have to factor in the north and south pole literally are both mini eye of terrors that are fueling the warp in a completely different way than elsewhere (which would likely cause problems to librarians)

ohhhh derp on my behalf, by warriors of chaos I thaught it was just like cultists, I thaught you were saying chaos doesn't concern the general cult guys, oops. did not know the mini eye of terra thing, but I think that the terminators would still go "EVERYONE SHOOT THE GUY WITH FIRE COMING OUT OF HIS EYE BALLS!'

 StarTrotter wrote:

 Silverthorne wrote:
Do you see Slann as fighting on the side of Chaos potentially or is that a typo? This makes me wonder if when/if the librarian had an audience with a Slann the knowledge of the old ones would suprise him. I'm not sure how much a very, very knowledgeable citizen of the imperium (like a librarian) would know about the Old Ones. Assuming, as all this does that the universes are somehow connected.

I didn't mean to place them on the side of Chaos. More like.... I can't quite tell if they would really ally entirely with the forces of order. Keep in mind these are the guys that screwed over dwarves cause MOUNTAINS MOVE! I could see them just getting pissed that SM were there claiming it doesn't fit in. Along with that, I wouldn't say their knowledge of the old ones would be surprising as much as... what are the old ones? I find it, personally, rather unlikely most librarians even know what the Old Ones are, and that doesn't even factor in it is unlikely that the Slann's old ones are the same as 40k's. Along with that, you mentioned chaos being more dependent on the warriors of chaos. By this theory of universes, it would arguably work just like in 40k rather than how it functions in fantasy making them even more threatening.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Silverthorne wrote:

 StarTrotter wrote:
Not quite. It's Space Marines + High Elves + Dwarves + Bretons + Wood Elves (maybe) + the Empire + maybe Slann v.s. Vampire, Undead, Slann?, Orks, Beastmen, Ogres, Chaos Daemons, Warriors of Chaos, and Chaos Daemons. Also it implies allying with High Elves and Wood Elves that might be familiar as Eldar (that they might just think are more dark eldar). And to be honest, at this point it would really mainly be just Fantasy vs Fantasy with 100 or so marines running around to help.

Also at this point I pause and say, if SM could get here, why wouldn't chaos daemons just become more 40k like as well? But that's more of just a curiosity at it all.

That's interesting and I don't know. The differences between the 40k deamons and WFB deamons are significant but then you have guys like Belakor. I have assumed in the past that something involving the Slann and the Old Ones is what prevents the WFB deamons from being the same as the deamons in the wider world.

Same with Orks, the WFB variety just feel weedier to me than the 40k ones, especially the Octavian warbosses and guys like Thrakka

I think it really has to do with them being brought to keep a relative playing field with the rest of them. In 40k, chaos daemon outcrops really feth over planets. Such a small planet that has had holes into the warp almost eternally ripped open in the top and bottom of the planet, in 40k, would pretty much devestate the planet within at most a few decades (which would be surprising if the consistency was so high). Orks proably run the same that or orks aren't adapted to getting boltered (or just to be balanced out as usual. Also they don't get to ride space rocks to smash into enemies )

In general the power level seems lower. 2 huge warp rifts on a planet AND an ork incursion? You are completely boned. Especially when the best you can round up is some guys with flint locks on ponies. Assuming that the SM can port over at their 40k background power level I still don't think one company could do cover the spread but they would put a serious hurting on whatever flimsy species of ork and deamon can't overrun the empire in any kind of permanent fashion.

 Silverthorne wrote:
Seeing as in your first post you mentioned something I said in my re-set then you already knew I was asking about different parameters. Are you currently lying or just confused?

You don't think this is worth discussing at all... so why are you here?


Edit-- also why are you saying ' sure, a company of space marines could lolstomp battle weary humans, elves, dwarves and what not.' as if that is something I said? I said that even in that situation, I didn't think it was possible. Are you lying to misrepresent me now or do you have a serious reading comprehension problem?

Ehh, I misread "Plus, assume we aren't dealing with complete idiots here" as "Plus, I'm assuming...", so in that context, what was an extension of your modified argument came across as "herp derp I'm changing the rules now"

Guess my reading comprehension is as bad as your attitude.

If Space Marines can manipulate forces of order etc, then we come to the shocking revelation that Forces of Order + Space Marines > Forces of Disorder

That I would agree with. I still don't think they could take the entire planet down. I think it would be interesting if they were stranded on the planet and became a separate fiefdom.

Eh I'm sorry for going off on you. Dakka makes people crazy.

 the shrouded lord wrote:
and the magic peoples get mind raped by the librarian.

Someone's going to have a dispel scroll for that.

 Wilytank wrote:

 the shrouded lord wrote:
and the magic peoples get mind raped by the librarian.

Someone's going to have a dispel scroll for that.

buryed deep in the vampire crypts, rests a stroll as ancient as time it self.
"scroll of chastity belt"

 Silverthorne wrote:
That I would agree with. I still don't think they could take the entire planet down. I think it would be interesting if they were stranded on the planet and became a separate fiefdom.

Eh I'm sorry for going off on you. Dakka makes people crazy.

Iz all the dakka! It makes ya want to go all WAAAAAGH and shootemall

they wouldn't last a week, the Slann would see they as a force disrupting the plans of the old ones and would have the skink priests rain meteors down on both them and their ship before adding there on magical might. As for Gray nights, I'm not fully sure. while in terms of fuff magic and psychic powers are very similar, at most a signal pychic and left a battle tank (and that would be a very powerful pycher) while the strongest mages of Old World can shift the landmasses and those on the weaker side are still able to bring forth pockets of hell.

I'm sitting here, reading this... And just thinking, who, and or what is going to deal with the thunderhawks? The marines could just make a prolonged campaign of the hawks going into orbit, reloading, then swooping down and taking out whatever they like with turbo laser destroyers.

Oh, and please, don't suggest magic or dragons, nothing would be fast enough to take them out of the sky if they are zooming at super sonic.

The thunderhawks could swoop down with marines loaded with long range heavy weapons, unload the marines, unleash a salvo and then reload and swoop away before absolutely anything could get in range to challenge them.

I also see a total failure of perception that most of you think for some reason the marines would go straight up toe to toe with fully prepared armies on a battle field, they'd strike at enemy camps at night, take out the enemy commanders and mop up the the leaderless armies later.

If the marines are patient and willing to take the time, they could wipe out the planet, yet they aren't an efficient option for this, they'd need guard support to do it within a decent time frame.

Orcs seem far weaker than Orks to me.

Orcs can get their butts kicked by Empire soldiers in melee. Who wear only simple steel swords, shields, helmets and breastplates.

40K Orks can be dangerous to even Space Marines in melee.

The difference is tremendous.

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
The marines could just make a prolonged campaign of the hawks going into orbit, reloading, then swooping down and taking out whatever they like with turbo laser destroyers.

Yeah... no, they couldn't. I mean sure, the first few dozen strikes would devastate whatever the singular ground target was, but you really think the factions are going to just muster on open fields and the commanders are going to sit and wait in their tents and barracks after that happens? No, they're going to say; "screw fighting that, I'm heading underground". Oh, there goes the Marine's aerial advantage when the enemy decides not to stand in the open. And even still, I really don't think you're grasping just how immense the task of pacifying the entire planet would be for a single Astartes company and their handful of Thunderhawks. It's just not doable. At all.

Oh, and please, don't suggest magic or dragons, nothing would be fast enough to take them out of the sky if they are zooming at super sonic.

Magic. More specifically warp storms. Zoom around all you want in your fancy pants metal dragon of mega-uber-death, you're still toast the moment someone decides to fill the sky with energy that can split and mutate all your atoms, and isn't fussy at what speed it does so.

If the marines are patient and willing to take the time, they could wipe out the planet

No, they really couldn't. Not by a long shot. Like I said before, even a single united faction from WHFB would be too big a task for a lone Marine company. The notion that they could wipe out the entire planet is beyond laughable.

Warhammer World - easy to pacify. Resistance by a few GW-Employees means nothing




Basically threads like this are screwed from start. You either give one side a joker ( WHFB > Magic ) and can't get anywhere then, or you realize there is a good reason to keep both playgrounds seperated.

Space Marines are from a highly industrialized setting. Casualty rates are far beyond the typical battles of fantasy settings.
*So whfb vs wh40k is dense infantry formations vs machine guns. Guess who wins.
*its long range and engagements across kilometres vs close range and pointy sticks. Guess who wins.
*its high mobility and control of the tools to get anywhere vs slow footsloggers, vs non-existant road networks, vs a few bridges. Guess who has the initiative.
*its high endurance and time on your side vs supply chains, armies need to rest, leaders who aren't immortal. Guess who can play the attrition game.
*its focus on a mission objective vs a endless struggle for power... Guess who follows ONE plan and doesn't backstab his "allies".


Without "magic" as mega-hyper-extra-plot armor, fantasy armies are massacred "on the fly".
Would this pacify the warhammer world ?

Maybe peace isn't part of the setup of the warhammer world.

It is extremely amusing, though for only a limited period of time, how some people overestimate the power of Space Marines (and that comes from a guy whose favourite faction is Spiky Space Marines).

Pit 100 Marines against an army of 2000 knights and the Marines actually might win. But 20,000 knights? 200,000? 2 million?

Even implementing clever tactics and a very efficient and cautious approach, the Marines would lose sooner or later. The more damage they would do, the angrier their opponents would grow, and after a time the Marines would find themselves surrounded from all sides by immense armies containing knights, musketeers, cavalry, siege machines, beasts, daemons, wizards and who knows what else, with limited supplies and no way to retreat.

Good luck.

 SarisKhan wrote:


Pit 100 Marines against an army of 2000 knights and the Marines actually might win. But 20,000 knights? 200,000? 2 million?

How many knights could Bretonnia field ?
a few hundred ?

Are we suddenly down to a single faction or the entire world as in the title? I'm confused.

Confused?

Humans field knights.
Bretonnians love to field knights.
How many knights could Bretonnia field?

Your point was "millions of knights". Mine is: there aren't so many.

Not a chance. The WHFB world is a terrible hell hole and by 40k standards it's a prime target for Exterminatus. Chaos is everywhere, undead are everywhere, and not to mention the amount of non-human species.

Depends if they are playing "smart" of course. Lining up on the other side of the battlefield, probably not.

If they play it smart, and (for instance) employ multiple simultaneous, devastating simultaneous deep devastating multiple deep strikes and start decapitating the leadership of the various factions then they would certainly be able to render several of the local empires and civilizations fairly harmless.

Problems arise when you start fiddling with the delicate balance of the Warhammer world though, because the more you mess around the more likely you are to have Slaan plot trinket drop a mountain on you, accidentally unleash the full force of the Chaos Gate or awaken Nagash, and then the planet is as good as toast.

Really, exterminatus is the only answer here (but that's not allowed), so I will go with "they neuter several factions (humans, dwarfs, elves, perhaps even the lizardmen and Chaos tribes), then get wiped out (along with everyone else) by one of th various end of the world scenarios".

Can I just say that 40k orks do a pretty darn good job of taking out Space Marines with crude blades and axes seen often in the fantasy universe. IF they can lay it into them with those, how much better will the finesse weapons of Bretonia and elves be? Granted, they are not showstopper weapons, but they can kill. Even a SM has weak points. Joints specifically. The average MK7 power armor has enough mesh area between the helmet and neck, or the groin area, to slip a sword through and fatally wound. It would be a difficult shot, but possible nonetheless.

And there are guns. Empire has some guns, and the steam tank. Other teams got cannons and such. Heck, even a rock from a Bretonian Trebuchet could kill a marine. WF casualties would be enormous, but they can win.

I'm picturing a flight of three thunderhawks, in echelon of 3, with the heavy bolters and laser destroyers going as they strafe a charging field of bretts.

That's the problem that the WFB factions will have. They only way they can kill the Marines is either with magic (which is tough because then the wizard has to get within stand-off range of the marines unless he's a bad-*ss like Teclis or Slann) and when you try that, the fact that marines have more acute senses than most apex predators means you'll get engaged and eliminated before you can 'find and fix' the marines.

The other way you can kill marines is to mob them, but that requires you to assemble huge forces out in the open. That's when the companies armory assets, like Thunderhawks, Storm Talons, Vindicators, etc really, really make you wish you had a third option.

But you don't.

Imagine if 40k orcs had no sluggas, no klaws, no dakkajets, no AA or AT at all. They would not be really that challenging to handle. You hear about marines getting killed by orcs all the time, sure. You don't hear about marines getting killed by feral orks when they have total air supremacy very often.

That said, I still think attrition would limit a clean sweep, although they could probably CLEANSE AND PURIFY all the factions of disorder.