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Just because you have PTSD does not mean you get a free pass.

If he was insulting the PTSD, yeah that is messed up. Everyone here is responsible for their words though, and can be called on it, no matter their mental condition.

 djones520 wrote:
Just because you have PTSD does not mean you get a free pass.

If he was insulting the PTSD, yeah that is messed up. Everyone here is responsible for their words though, and can be called on it, no matter their mental condition.

I would say by directly pointing it out and making fun of him like that that he is being a four letter word followed by the word "Head". And I would go so far as to say if he continues in that manner I will have issues with it.

I think the death penalty is barbaric. We should lobotomize criminals and incorporate them into functioning wetware, to performs menial tasks.

 VorpalBunny74 wrote:
I think the death penalty is barbaric. We should lobotomize criminals and incorporate them into functioning wetware, to performs menial tasks.

If and when this becomes practical, I would not be opposed to this.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
Ugh, the death penalty. Clearly the proper response to mass killings is to add another body to the pile. I really wish America would ditch the death penalty, it's senseless and achieves nothing besides petty retribution and it does not bring the dead back. Especially when the natural state of the human mind is not a flying rodent gak insane bomber wanting to kill tens or hundreds of people- that's the sign of something being tweaked.

Even if he couldn't be rehabilitated, it's better to have tried and failed than never tried at all. Besides, death is a gakky punishment. Once you whack somebody they're sent on a one way train to oblivion. They don't live with anything. They don't learn anything about their actions... because they're dead and their brain has ceased all function.

The best punishment for any pyschopath is to correct the damage done to their mind (either by a terrible upbringing/abuse or being born with a defective brain), restore the ability to feel empathy, and let them spend the rest of their lives wallowing in guilt.

And what about people who have no sense of guilt, but aren't psychologically damaged? Many killers are perfectly sane individuals. No amount of therapy is going to make them grow a sense of shame.

Tsarneav is perfectly sane, so was his brother. He wasn't a crazy individual who snapped and decided to kill a bunch of people with his brother. They plotted to kill and maim people. Not only without any sense of shame, but actual elation in the death and pain they were going to cause.

This type of person cannot be cured or reasoned with. They're like rabid dogs, the only solution is to remove them from society permanently.

And even in the event of true psychological damage, its not always curable. Prolonging their life could be cruel and only prolongs their suffering, and highly dangerous to the people who have to look after this insane individual. There is a bit of grey area for sure, but not everyone who commits horrific acts is acting on psychological damage.

Insanity is not simply a slate of babbling madmen cutting their skin with blades and showing up at school with a gun to kill multiple people until they're either killed or taken into custody. It's a sliding skill from sanity with the line of where each state begins and ends being fully blurred. Numerous sociopaths are fully functional members of society and are drawn to positions of authority and power given their tendencies- but at the same time sociopaths can slide into a killer and start killing people without any cause. The very fact that they are beyond reasoning or "curing" proves they are legitimately insane- again, insanity does mean babbling nutjob who had his brain melt after seeing Cthulhu and starts talking to pink elephants that nobody can see. The definition of sanity is rational behavior. His behavior was irrational.

Plus, given how much free will is an illusion constructed by the function of the brain, execution is a nonsensical, asinine punishment. For the very same reason I find almost all Western Religion to be absurd and nonsensical, humans are just machines. Very complex biological ones made of carbon, but machines no less. You don't punish a machine for malfunctioning. You repair it and send it back to work. To punish it for being broken is irrational, no different than cursing and attempting to destroy a hammer after you broke your own finger with it. The only time execution should even be on the table is when the individual is such a danger that not even prison can safely hold them (and such individuals simply do not exist), or they are an enemy of the state during a time of war like Osama Bin Laden. The only potential "positive" outcome of this man's death is dissecting his brain to look for any flaws and shipping out the corpse for medical research.

Lethal retribution accomplishes nothing besides simply spreading more unnecessary destruction than there should be. Also, the very idea of death being "humane" is utterly fething stupid. Unless they are suffering from a horrid medical disease that causes constant and endless suffering to such a point that ceasing to exist completely and having your consciousness obliterated for good is a more pleasant option- then it becomes "humane".


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 VorpalBunny74 wrote:
I think the death penalty is barbaric. We should lobotomize criminals and incorporate them into functioning wetware, to performs menial tasks.

> Destroying the consciousness of an individual is barbaric.

> Let's destroy the consciousness of the individual.

And if a machine is too broken to repair or be worth repairing you scrap it and get a new one. Plenty of people aren't reparable, or aren't actually broken and are just evil.

Your analogy is fatally flawed.

 Wyzilla wrote:
> Destroying the consciousness of an individual is barbaric.
> Let's destroy the consciousness of the individual.

I didn't say destroying a consciousness is barbaric, I said wasting a perfectly good potential servitor is

 Grey Templar wrote:
And if a machine is too broken to repair or be worth repairing you scrap it and get a new one. Plenty of people aren't reparable, or aren't actually broken and are just evil.

Your analogy is fatally flawed.

Being too broken to be repaired is death, not a failure in coding. In this analogy, Blue Screen of Death is what is says on the label, not snapping or having always been a sociopath.

There is no such thing as "evil", just as there is no such thing as "good". Morality is simply an illusion of the brain, and not an aspect of the universe- plus it's completely subjective to the individual and the culture that individual belongs to. Nothing makes anything right or wrong or makes taking forceful action against those believed to be "bad" justified.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 VorpalBunny74 wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
> Destroying the consciousness of an individual is barbaric.
> Let's destroy the consciousness of the individual.

I didn't say destroying a consciousness is barbaric, I said wasting a perfectly good potential servitor is

There is zero advantage to using such labor over robotic work lines or paid labor. Slave labor is done at a loss, and undercuts the economy.

 Wyzilla wrote:
There is zero advantage to using such labor over robotic work lines or paid labor. Slave labor is done at a loss, and undercuts the economy.

They would become robotic labour, my man. That's what 'wetware' implies.

Learn2Mars

 VorpalBunny74 wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
There is zero advantage to using such labor over robotic work lines or paid labor. Slave labor is done at a loss, and undercuts the economy.

They would become robotic labour, my man. That's what 'wetware' implies.

Learn2Mars

Organic robots are utterly useless as a workforce. They decay as DNA Telomeres erode, organs fail, blood clots, etc. They require constant maintenance in the form of a medical doctor along with a constant supply of varied nutrients including sunlight. Meanwhile with a robotic arm on an assembly line, you forget about it for a month before coming in later to check hydraulics, change a couple gears maybe, and plug it back in before forgetting about it for another month.

Nothing in 40K is applicable to reality.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
And if a machine is too broken to repair or be worth repairing you scrap it and get a new one. Plenty of people aren't reparable, or aren't actually broken and are just evil.

Your analogy is fatally flawed.

Being too broken to be repaired is death, not a failure in coding. In this analogy, Blue Screen of Death is what is says on the label, not snapping or having always been a sociopath.

There is no such thing as "evil", just as there is no such thing as "good". Morality is simply an illusion of the brain, and not an aspect of the universe- plus it's completely subjective to the individual and the culture that individual belongs to. Nothing makes anything right or wrong or makes taking forceful action against those believed to be "bad" justified.

There most certainly is "evil" and "good". Or are you claiming that ISIS, Hitler, Stalin, or any other number of wicked people aren't evil. Just misunderstood people who needed some help in a loony bin.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
And if a machine is too broken to repair or be worth repairing you scrap it and get a new one. Plenty of people aren't reparable, or aren't actually broken and are just evil.

Your analogy is fatally flawed.

Being too broken to be repaired is death, not a failure in coding. In this analogy, Blue Screen of Death is what is says on the label, not snapping or having always been a sociopath.

There is no such thing as "evil", just as there is no such thing as "good". Morality is simply an illusion of the brain, and not an aspect of the universe- plus it's completely subjective to the individual and the culture that individual belongs to. Nothing makes anything right or wrong or makes taking forceful action against those believed to be "bad" justified.

There most certainly is "evil" and "good". Or are you claiming that ISIS, Hitler, Stalin, or any other number of wicked people aren't evil. Just misunderstood people who needed some help in a loony bin.

They aren't evil. Morality is a chemical construct of the brain, not an inherent law of the universe. Nothing makes Hitler "bad" besides our subjective views. We may both agree that he was a stain on the human species, but no evidence suggests the universe cares about our petty morality at all. Nothing makes us right besides the force we use to force our views upon others. Objectively, neither a culture of sociopathic nutters who make daily human sacrifices any less right or wrong than a culture founded on ideals of order and empathy. All that makes the other side "wrong" are the people in one culture viewing the other with glasses tinted by their culture's ideology.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 VorpalBunny74 wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
There is zero advantage to using such labor over robotic work lines or paid labor. Slave labor is done at a loss, and undercuts the economy.

They would become robotic labour, my man. That's what 'wetware' implies.

Learn2Mars

Organic robots are utterly useless as a workforce. They decay as DNA Telomeres erode, organs fail, blood clots, etc. They require constant maintenance in the form of a medical doctor along with a constant supply of varied nutrients including sunlight. Meanwhile with a robotic arm on an assembly line, you forget about it for a month before coming in later to check hydraulics, change a couple gears maybe, and plug it back in before forgetting about it for another month.

Nothing in 40K is applicable to reality.

You say wetware would suck because it needs maintenance, and then admit (in your next line) current robots need maintenance?

Not really convincing me there.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
And if a machine is too broken to repair or be worth repairing you scrap it and get a new one. Plenty of people aren't reparable, or aren't actually broken and are just evil.

Your analogy is fatally flawed.

Being too broken to be repaired is death, not a failure in coding. In this analogy, Blue Screen of Death is what is says on the label, not snapping or having always been a sociopath.

There is no such thing as "evil", just as there is no such thing as "good". Morality is simply an illusion of the brain, and not an aspect of the universe- plus it's completely subjective to the individual and the culture that individual belongs to. Nothing makes anything right or wrong or makes taking forceful action against those believed to be "bad" justified.

There most certainly is "evil" and "good". Or are you claiming that ISIS, Hitler, Stalin, or any other number of wicked people aren't evil. Just misunderstood people who needed some help in a loony bin.

They aren't evil. Morality is a chemical construct of the brain, not an inherent law of the universe. Nothing makes Hitler "bad" besides our subjective views. We may both agree that he was a stain on the human species, but no evidence suggests the universe cares about our petty morality at all. Nothing makes us right besides the force we use to force our views upon others. Objectively, neither a culture of sociopathic nutters who make daily human sacrifices any less right or wrong than a culture founded on ideals of order and empathy. All that makes the other side "wrong" are the people in one culture viewing the other with glasses tinted by their culture's ideology.

Well we clearly disagree. And fortunately most people don't share your view and the US is willing to get rid of people like Tsarneav and Hitler, and the world is better off for it.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
And if a machine is too broken to repair or be worth repairing you scrap it and get a new one. Plenty of people aren't reparable, or aren't actually broken and are just evil.

Your analogy is fatally flawed.

Being too broken to be repaired is death, not a failure in coding. In this analogy, Blue Screen of Death is what is says on the label, not snapping or having always been a sociopath.

There is no such thing as "evil", just as there is no such thing as "good". Morality is simply an illusion of the brain, and not an aspect of the universe- plus it's completely subjective to the individual and the culture that individual belongs to. Nothing makes anything right or wrong or makes taking forceful action against those believed to be "bad" justified.

There most certainly is "evil" and "good". Or are you claiming that ISIS, Hitler, Stalin, or any other number of wicked people aren't evil. Just misunderstood people who needed some help in a loony bin.

They aren't evil. Morality is a chemical construct of the brain, not an inherent law of the universe. Nothing makes Hitler "bad" besides our subjective views. We may both agree that he was a stain on the human species, but no evidence suggests the universe cares about our petty morality at all. Nothing makes us right besides the force we use to force our views upon others. Objectively, neither a culture of sociopathic nutters who make daily human sacrifices any less right or wrong than a culture founded on ideals of order and empathy. All that makes the other side "wrong" are the people in one culture viewing the other with glasses tinted by their culture's ideology.

Well we clearly disagree. And fortunately the US is willing to get rid of people like Tsarneav and Hitler, and the world is better off for it.

There is no disagreement, you are simply lying if you think morality is anything more than a subjective viewpoint. It can be warped to fit any ideals of any individual so long as they are capable of thinking in the first place. It's a construct of humanity, not the universe. Remember, we are insignificant dots in the middle of what may very well be infinity, existing as the entire species for what is not even a blink on the universal scale of time. We will fade from the memory of all things just as quickly as we came to be- along with our petty subjective views. Neither are our opinions nor our very bodies absolutes.

The main difference to note however is the nature of morality and how it changes. It is most likely just a chemical compound by neuroscience, but what sets apart the common man from a member of the SS in 1940? Or even better, what can you do to turn a loving family member into a raving madman with a bloodied knife?

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
And if a machine is too broken to repair or be worth repairing you scrap it and get a new one. Plenty of people aren't reparable, or aren't actually broken and are just evil.

Your analogy is fatally flawed.

Being too broken to be repaired is death, not a failure in coding. In this analogy, Blue Screen of Death is what is says on the label, not snapping or having always been a sociopath.

There is no such thing as "evil", just as there is no such thing as "good". Morality is simply an illusion of the brain, and not an aspect of the universe- plus it's completely subjective to the individual and the culture that individual belongs to. Nothing makes anything right or wrong or makes taking forceful action against those believed to be "bad" justified.

There most certainly is "evil" and "good". Or are you claiming that ISIS, Hitler, Stalin, or any other number of wicked people aren't evil. Just misunderstood people who needed some help in a loony bin.

They aren't evil. Morality is a chemical construct of the brain, not an inherent law of the universe. Nothing makes Hitler "bad" besides our subjective views. We may both agree that he was a stain on the human species, but no evidence suggests the universe cares about our petty morality at all. Nothing makes us right besides the force we use to force our views upon others. Objectively, neither a culture of sociopathic nutters who make daily human sacrifices any less right or wrong than a culture founded on ideals of order and empathy. All that makes the other side "wrong" are the people in one culture viewing the other with glasses tinted by their culture's ideology.

Well we clearly disagree. And fortunately the US is willing to get rid of people like Tsarneav and Hitler, and the world is better off for it.

There is no disagreement, you are simply lying if you think morality is anything more than a subjective viewpoint. It can be warped to fit any ideals of any individual so long as they are capable of thinking in the first place. It's a construct of humanity, not the universe. Remember, we are insignificant dots in the middle of what may very well be infinity, existing as the entire species for what is not even a blink on the universal scale of time. We will fade from the memory of all things just as quickly as we came to be- along with our petty subjective views. Neither are our opinions nor our very bodies absolutes.

The main difference to note however is the nature of morality and how it changes. It is most likely just a chemical compound by neuroscience, but what sets apart the common man from a member of the SS in 1940? Or even better, what can you do to turn a loving family member into a raving madman with a bloodied knife?

There most definitely is a disagreement. But you're clearly not going to accept that with your, frankly disgusting, viewpoint.

 VorpalBunny74 wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 VorpalBunny74 wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
There is zero advantage to using such labor over robotic work lines or paid labor. Slave labor is done at a loss, and undercuts the economy.

They would become robotic labour, my man. That's what 'wetware' implies.

Learn2Mars

Organic robots are utterly useless as a workforce. They decay as DNA Telomeres erode, organs fail, blood clots, etc. They require constant maintenance in the form of a medical doctor along with a constant supply of varied nutrients including sunlight. Meanwhile with a robotic arm on an assembly line, you forget about it for a month before coming in later to check hydraulics, change a couple gears maybe, and plug it back in before forgetting about it for another month.

Nothing in 40K is applicable to reality.

You say wetware would suck because it needs maintenance, and then admit (in your next line) current robots need maintenance?

Not really convincing me there.

One requires constant, daily maintenance, regular checkups, and stands a very large chance of simply falling over and dying for good. The other you only have to check up on occasionally and if something breaks, you just swap out parts. Plus robotic assembly-line arms don't need food or exercise.

And again, slave labor is bad for the economy. The South before the Civil War would have made better profits had they turned their slaves into minimum wage workers. Slave labor is more expensive than cheap labor.

 Wyzilla wrote:
One requires constant, daily maintenance, regular checkups, and stands a very large chance of simply falling over and dying for good. The other you only have to check up on occasionally and if something breaks, you just swap out parts. Plus robotic assembly-line arms don't need food or exercise.

Both of them require daily maintenance, and robot assembly lines can't march into war with guns on their arms. Check and mate.

 Wyzilla wrote:
And again, slave labor is bad for the economy. The South before the Civil War would have made better profits had they turned their slaves into minimum wage workers. Slave labor is more expensive than cheap labor.

Good thing I'm not talking about slave labour then! Pretty sure servitors don't have independant thought.

 timetowaste85 wrote:
Without a shadow of a doubt to his guilt? Hang him in public. Cut his arms and legs off first and cauterize the wounds so he doesn't bleed out. Make the bastard suffer. We can't make him feel all the pain and damage he caused to everyone, but we sure as hell can make him feel some of it.

You call it bloodthirsty, I call it justice. When a man murders and blows limbs off of children, he deserves whatever torture humanity can grant before God gets His hands on him.

make him eat bacon bits!

Biggest mistake this kid and his brother made...They attacked Boston. A city loaded with a bunch of Micks Just like me who get uppity at the first sign of a challenge

The bombing took place about 3 months after a buddy of mine EAS'd and went home to Boston, I immediately called him to see if he had decided to go to the race or not and to see if he was ok. Apparently my buddy along with a decent percentage of Boston citizens went roaming the streets looking for the suspects..... Dont Feth with Boston because they will Feth you right back.

 Grey Templar wrote:
They plotted to kill and maim people. Not only without any sense of shame, but actual elation in the death and pain they were going to cause.

Which is exactly the approach many people in this thread have to Tsarnaev's execution.

"Two wrongs make a right" is the American way.

While there is a good argument for the death penalty with this guy, I feel it's encouraging martyrdom. So let him rot in solitary and deny him his place in paradise with all his other 'martyrs'

Rosebuddy wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
They plotted to kill and maim people. Not only without any sense of shame, but actual elation in the death and pain they were going to cause.

Which is exactly the approach many people in this thread have to Tsarnaev's execution.

I think you mistake elation with desire to do what is necessary.

This scumbag needs to be removed from society. Ideally, nobody would do the things that would require such drastic action. But people do, and so we do what must be done.

 Grey Templar wrote:

I think you mistake elation with desire to do what is necessary.

I'm thinking of the people who want to go out of the way to torture him gruesomely and generally fantasise of ways for him to suffer.

If we're talking doing what is necessary, well, it turns out that it's fully possible to keep someone away from the rest of society without killing anyone at all. Norway is doing it to Breivik, for example. The US prison system isn't set up to do this very well though because the point of it is to inflict harm so just killing someone is more merciful than keeping them locked in solitary for the rest of their lives. But that's a specific issue with the US system rather than some general flaw with imprisonment or closed care.

Death is the only appropriate punishment for such a heinous act.

Rosebuddy wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

I think you mistake elation with desire to do what is necessary.

I'm thinking of the people who want to go out of the way to torture him gruesomely and generally fantasise of ways for him to suffer.

If we're talking doing what is necessary, well, it turns out that it's fully possible to keep someone away from the rest of society without killing anyone at all. Norway is doing it to Breivik, for example. The US prison system isn't set up to do this very well though because the point of it is to inflict harm so just killing someone is more merciful than keeping them locked in solitary for the rest of their lives. But that's a specific issue with the US system rather than some general flaw with imprisonment or closed care.

Breivik's case is actually an example of someone who needs to get executed, but what happens when that isn't allowed by the system. The truly terrible thing is that he's always eligible for sentencing review, and I don't trust that it isn't impossible that a future court 30-40 years down the line won't decide he's been sufficiently rehabilitated to allow parole. You say it'll never happen, but its possible with the system. And that is morally reprehensible.

Plus the fact he is still alive lets him stand as an inspiration for people who are sympathetic to his cause, and he hasn't been made an example of.

All it says is that, no matter what horrible thing you do at worst we'll toss you in a nice comfortable facility where your every need is met and cared for for the rest of your life.

He'll probably reside on death row for the next 10 years going through appeals.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Breivik's case is actually an example of someone who needs to get executed, but what happens when that isn't allowed by the system. The truly terrible thing is that he's always eligible for sentencing review, and I don't trust that it isn't impossible that a future court 30-40 years down the line won't decide he's been sufficiently rehabilitated to allow parole. You say it'll never happen, but its possible with the system. And that is morally reprehensible.

If he is actually judged to have bee rehabilitated after 40 years then I'll trust the Norwegian experts involved in that decision. I reject your morality and replace it with my own.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Plus the fact he is still alive lets him stand as an inspiration for people who are sympathetic to his cause, and he hasn't been made an example of.

All it says is that, no matter what horrible thing you do at worst we'll toss you in a nice comfortable facility where your every need is met and cared for for the rest of your life.

I doubt that anyone who would take after Breivik would care about getting killed. It's hilarious that you claim that he'll be an inspiration by remaining alive when people in this very thread have suggested that killing Tsarnaev would be bad because then he'd become a martyr.

Thats because of their respective causes. Martyrdom is important to Tsarnaev's cause, not particularly to what Breivik's is. The people who would follow Brevik would actually be put off by death.

Either way, they deserve death.