Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

So, a few months ago, after finally realizing that Orks just aren't gonna cut it in 6th without a shitton of Warbikes or spamming Battlewagons, I decided to try running CSM as allies and build them up as a second army.

"Oh, they've got a 6th ed codex already," I thought. "They're bound to be effective!"

Several months and not a single win later, I'm finally beginning to understand why people are saying the CSM codex is mediocre at best.

The main armies I play against at my FLGS are Space Wolves, Tau and Eldar, and I have thrown every list I can conceivably make at them and gotten wrecked each time. This is partly because of how little I have to work with - no Rhinos, no Land Raiders, very few actual CSM models - but what it really comes down to is that everyone else has a dairy's worth of cheese, and I do not. Buying new models is not currently an option, and I've been proxying wherever possible, but no matter what I proxy or what tactics I attempt, the outcome is the same.

It's gotten so bad that at this point, I'm seriously considering selling my CSM or trading them for Orks when their new codex comes out (assuming, of course, that their new codex is any good, which I'm growing increasingly doubtful of).

So help me out, guys. How can I work with what I have and get a win for the first time in months?

For the record, my roster thus far is:

20 CSM
1 Chaos Lord
1 Termie Sorcerer
5 Termies
1 Daemon Prince
1 Forgefiend
6 Obliterators
2 Heldrakes

I have more than enough Ork Boyz to proxy for infantry.

My buddy runs 2 Demon Princes, 40 cultists, 2 heldrakes, 3 oblits, allied lord of change and plague bearers with a comms relay aegis line. Wrecks me everytime.

To be fair, you're playing against Tau and Eldar. SW shouldn't be too hard for you to handle though. What's the issue there?

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:
To be fair, you're playing against Tau and Eldar. SW shouldn't be too hard for you to handle though. What's the issue there?

Against Wolves, it usually comes down to him getting units into melee with me before I can burn them down. First turn Drop Pod with Chainfist Termies, then Thunderwolves with Claws/Shields led by Canis get into assault range by turn 2 at the latest. From there, he can just knock my troops down like dominoes.

A unit of Nurgle Spawn would help out a lot for counter-assault. For CSM my Fast Attack choices are always 2 Heldrakes and 5 Nurgle Spawn...they're so incredibly useful against targets like that.

Plague Marines are hard as nails to kill. If hes coming to you, prep that Prince. He kicks complete buttocks in combat. remember he is at least AP 2

 Commander_Nightflier wrote:
Plague Marines are hard as nails to kill. If hes coming to you, prep that Prince. He kicks complete buttocks in combat. remember he is at least AP 2

I've had some limited success with Plague Marines. The Prince, on the other hand, has yet to do me a scrap of good. By the time I kit him out with everything he needs, he's running between 200 - 350 points, and then just ends up getting focused down before he can accomplish anything.

A daemon prince should slaughter anything short of an Avatar of Khaine in close combat. He's only in trouble if he fails a grounded check and gets shot to death. Granted, that's a thing that definitely happens. I don't see him being too scared against Space Wolves, though, as Smash attacks should handle TW Cav pretty easily.

The Oblits should handle most other terminators with extreme prejudice. 3 plasma cannon blobs will eat most TWs alive unless they are all kitted out with stormshields. If that's how he's running them, remember each 6 wounds you inflict on the squad are likely to kill a guy so just aim every last thing you have at it as each kill is 50ish points. You'll do more damage to his guys barring horrible luck on your part and great luck on his. Terminators are not great investments this edition, typically.

 SRSFACE wrote:
A daemon prince should slaughter anything short of an Avatar of Khaine in close combat. He's only in trouble if he fails a grounded check and gets shot to death. Granted, that's a thing that definitely happens. I don't see him being too scared against Space Wolves, though, as Smash attacks should handle TW Cav pretty easily.

The Oblits should handle most other terminators with extreme prejudice. 3 plasma cannon blobs will eat most TWs alive unless they are all kitted out with stormshields. If that's how he's running them, remember each 6 wounds you inflict on the squad are likely to kill a guy so just aim every last thing you have at it as each kill is 50ish points. You'll do more damage to his guys barring horrible luck on your part and great luck on his. Terminators are not great investments this edition, typically.

He runs Storm Shields on both his Termies and Thunderwolves. As for the Prince, maybe I'm just unlucky, but that's exactly what's happened to him in every match I've fielded him in.

Does anyone have any suggestion for counters to Tau or Eldar? I have a Noise marine list built that I think can put the hurt on Eldar at the very least, but I know from my last match that it won't do jack against Tau.

If you playing Eldar Tau and wolves, they must bring some big vehicles, Nurgle Bikers with melta twin linked to replace the bolters, then stick a combi plasma on the Sarge to insta- kill a low toughness psyker. T6 12" mobile bikes are so good if used well.

 TechmarineNic wrote:
If you playing Eldar Tau and wolves, they must bring some big vehicles, Nurgle Bikers with melta twin linked to replace the bolters, then stick a combi plasma on the Sarge to insta- kill a low toughness psyker. T6 12" mobile bikes are so good if used well.

Problem with Bikes is that i can't proxy them, and like I said, getting new models isn't something I can do right now.

Forgeworld has some interesting choices for Chaos in the Apocalypse (2013) book, if you can get creative with bitz box conversions.

-Giant Chaos spawn are dirt cheap (80pts) for a monsterous creature that can throw down a whole lot of attacks. They're not fast, but would be perfect in a counter-attack role against wolves.
-Relic predators are also juicy toys that let you bring some reliable 3shot plasma cannons, or conversion beamers that can put the hurt on tau or eldar targets from range.
-Chaos Contemptors or Decimators are pretty pricey points-wise, but they can make for absolutely brutal gun or combat walkers with pretty good durability. Dual butcher cannons on a contemptor cranks out 8x str8 shots.

the problem with CSM is that they don't get cheap dakka (other than predators) to match EVERY other races dakka.

Going off what you have, the only thing you are really lacking is a few more scoring bodies. You have enough of everything else to be competitive really.

One good thing is to stick with Nurgle, as the added toughness is a real boon to everybody in your army.

A nurgle lord or Typhus (using the models you already have) would be great, along with a terminator retinue if you so desire. Plague Marines are good, even walking, and try to get 3 squads out of what you have, and you should be fine. Also, if your friends are cool with it, proxying some of those ork boyz as nurgle cultists (or even plague bearers) would be a good way to try out having some more troops. The obliterators really benefit from the T5 from Mark of Nurgle as well, and Heldrakes are always good. Also, if you are going to run that Daemon Prince, Mark of Tzeentch makes him alot more durable, and the Black Mace makes him very formidable in close combat.

So...the following is about 1650

Typhus
Demon Prince with MoT and Black Mace (Wings and Armor of course)
7 Plague Marines
7 Plague Marines
7 Plague Marines
Heldrake
Heldrake
3 Obliterators with Mark of Nurgle

I'd add a retinue for Typhus of your choice and you're golden.

One thing to keep in mind is is that you do need target saturation to make the Daemon Prince work; start him off the board and have him swoop in with the Heldrakes. When you have three flying threats in the air, it should make him harder to knock down.

You're definitely missing more standard marines. I'd honestly recommend 2 Squads of 15-20.

Terminators are almost a joke now, especially if Tau and Eldar are some of you main opponents. And most will agree that the CSM ones aren't least cost effective in the book, and probably the game.

Sorcerers are surprisingly good in combat and fairly cost efficient by comparison to the chaos Lord, just not in Term armor. Havocs might be worth looking into for a simple overlook, they can carry Autocannons, which are great. If you want to go better, a squad of Noise Marines will help out as well.

I agree that either your opponents are lucky, or you're using the DP wrong. He should be tearing stuff up most games.

Other than that, I think you're in there with most CSM and Dark Angel players in that their books are just decent and not as grand as the Tau/Eldar books are.

Maphysto wrote:
So, a few months ago, after finally realizing that Orks just aren't gonna cut it in 6th without a shitton of Warbikes or spamming Battlewagons, I decided to try running CSM as allies and build them up as a second army.

"Oh, they've got a 6th ed codex already," I thought. "They're bound to be effective!"

Several months and not a single win later, I'm finally beginning to understand why people are saying the CSM codex is mediocre at best.

The main armies I play against at my FLGS are Space Wolves, Tau and Eldar, and I have thrown every list I can conceivably make at them and gotten wrecked each time. This is partly because of how little I have to work with - no Rhinos, no Land Raiders, very few actual CSM models - but what it really comes down to is that everyone else has a dairy's worth of cheese, and I do not. Buying new models is not currently an option, and I've been proxying wherever possible, but no matter what I proxy or what tactics I attempt, the outcome is the same.

It's gotten so bad that at this point, I'm seriously considering selling my CSM or trading them for Orks when their new codex comes out (assuming, of course, that their new codex is any good, which I'm growing increasingly doubtful of).

So help me out, guys. How can I work with what I have and get a win for the first time in months?

For the record, my roster thus far is:

20 CSM
1 Chaos Lord
1 Termie Sorcerer
5 Termies
1 Daemon Prince
1 Forgefiend
6 Obliterators
2 Heldrakes

I have more than enough Ork Boyz to proxy for infantry.

No true mobility and no mobile cover for what you have. Forgefiend is exposed, you have nothing to wipe his Anti-air pre-emptively and consistently and yeah. I can see where the struggle is against Tau abd Eldar or Mechanized eldar (Mechdar).
You actually have good building blocks but you are really going to struggle without vehicles given the models you have. the enemy probably focuses fire on Obliterators where appropriate and the Forgefiend leaving you nothing threateniong him or stopping him from backing away. From ther its a land slide. Daemon prince is probably next in line, depending on what the enemy has or if its winged it'll be first. Either way you're not delivering much to the front door in turn 2 and thats a problem.

These are pretty good building blocks though. I'd say Rhinos and maybe a Chaos Land Raider would help you get over there and not die, and then the Heldrakes can open things up for you and be supported better in round 2. Get an Aegis Line with Comms relay for sure.

Throw a wrech in his game. Keep your ork boys spread out to the max deep in your deployment zone until turn two. On turn one mass attack down field with your Chaos Army.

When he deep strikes his unit he's gonna have a hard time finding something within your zone. If he does you prolly have about 30 shootas near by within 18". If he gets scared of all your dakka and deep strikes outside your deployment zone, rush the Boyz down field as a second wave of madness.

U have good units allready.

2 Drakes are gona wreck da faces. Don't go over 2 cause it's gona be an overkill and will just result in seeing 3 vendettas next game.

Forgefiends are bad. Better have a Maulerfiend - they're surprisingly good.

Sorcs are awesome. ML 3, sigil, axe or mace, spell familliar and telepathy or biomancy depending on needs. Personally, i've tried Bikersorc + nurgle spawns or nurgle bikes. They're very effective. If you don't see any good potential for telepathy - go biomancy and get dat fancy fnp for your t6 guyz.

Termies are not a great unit now, however you can use them as a melta-drop min squad. 3 termies with combi-meltas cost like 112 or 117 - don't remember exactly. But they usually do the job. Cheap, rather effective - they drop, pop up a tank and distract an opponent.

U need some cultists for backfield pointholding or midfield distraction if it's gona be a relic game.

It might be a good idea to get an adl or bastion with comms relay since u've got lotsa reserves. Also, you could controle the reserves of the opponent.

Without rhinos - i don't see how you could put csm or cult troops to good use to be honest.

All in all, you have a potential to a competitive army, but i'd not suggest going this way to be honest. Scratch-built lists are way funnier to play. Though, u'll need to find a few opponents with a fun approach to their hobby also. If you go "outcheeze da cheeze" direction - u'll end up bored eventually. Ofc, that's just my imo.

PS.Orkses can do fine if you get like 2+ wagonz. The more - the better, but even 2 will work. Also, don't forget - you can ally orkses and csm I think a wagon of shootaboyz, nob-biker+bikerboss star...or just a bunch of shootaboyz can be a huge buff to csm forces, really.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Though, must tell you that you have to be a better tactitian to win tau and eldar anywayz. Use distraction and cunning tactical moves - train u'r tactical mind, mon! They just have stronger codexes. So when you do win - it's even more rewarding.

I had some great success with my Noise Marines list last night against Grey Knights. Didn't win, but it was a much closer match than I would've expected.

This thread has given me some good ideas, so I'll work on my lists and see if I can't improve my game.

List you can use:

Belakor
Nurgle lord w/brand, Axe, 4++, blight Grenades

7 Plaguemarines 2 plasma, rhino
7 Plaguemarines 2 plasma, rhino
7 Plaguemarines 2 melta, rhino

Helldrake
Helldrake
5 Spawns of Nurgle

2 Oblits, Nurgle, VOTLW
2 Oblits, Nurgle, VOTLW

don't see the issue with Spacewolves, against Tau & Eldar, Invisible Spawns and helldrakes + belakor coming his way will force choises, difficult play but that list should be able to do some serious damage.

The issue with Space Wolves is that Grey Hunters a scoring units that are also highly effective. Even plague marines crumple to double plasma gun/combi-plasma. And then the assault phase is dominated by Space Wolves, even when *they don't assault*

If the Space Wolves bring Vendetta allies, CSM can kiss their behinds goodbye, because they have precious few solid options against the Grey Hunter.

CSM vs Taudar, like all meqs are horribly, horribly outgunned.

With what you have :

Split your 20 CSM in 3 squads of plague marines. Plasma / Flamers depending on what you want to do with them. Remember plague knives and FNP. They're expansive, but really tough, and scoring.

Find a 6th terminator, and do 2 squads of 3, with only combi-weapons and DS them behind enemy lines to disrupt high value targets / vehicules or just appear on a home objective. They'll die, but at the minimum occupy the field.

Splt the obliterators in 2/3 units depending on your HS slots.

Bring your heldrakes.

Finally, you need a MoN lord with that. Thyphus works (he brings a lot for his point cost), but if you can spare a single additionnal model that is not on your list, take MoN lord on bike with the Brand. Dirt cheap and a real pain for your opponent.

Fill in the blanks.

Unless your opponent fields a total cheese army, you should have at least limited success with that. PM + Oblits + Baledrakes are a strong backbone to your army. You really can't go wrong with them.

NuggzTheNinja wrote:To be fair, you're playing against Tau and Eldar. SW shouldn't be too hard for you to handle though. What's the issue there?

Yeah. The CSM codex is pretty good, and you'd be having no problems if GW had stopped publishing new material 9 months ago...

... but they didn't. If what you want is wins, and your opponents are playing tau, eldar, and escalation, then the best piece of advice I can give you is to stop playing CSM, as you feared. Not to say that it's impossible to win games, but you're playing the game on hard mode while your opponents are playing the game on slobber-on-self-easy mode. It's going to take a lot more work and effort and losses to get to the place you want to be here.

Anyways, probably the next biggest problem here is that you don't have nearly enough infantry, which is bad because infantry is pretty much what makes the CSM codex. You said you have orks to proxy, and I'd start there. Not only will this get you closer to the way that CSM are "meant" to be played, but it will also feel more familiar to you as an ork player. I'm talking about a list like...

Huron
Sorcerer - lvl 3

Terminators (4) - 3x combi-plasma, power fists

20x CSM - +CCW, IoV, 2x melta guns
20x CSM - +CCW, IoV, 2x melta guns
20x CSM - +CCW, IoV, 2x melta guns


... for 1500 points. Until you can get used to how to shove infantry down your opponent's throat and make as much use out of their latent flexibility as you can, then you're probably going to struggle with CSM, not matter how many fancy toys you try and cram in there. Once you have the fundamentals down, you'll have an easier time of it.

Against his THSS, Daemon Prince Black mace doesn't care about that