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What are the ideal units used by eldar to take on their brothers? Having trouble killing them. Thanks.

Wave Serpents are brutal against every army, but against DE, they're downright unfair. Other than that, Warp Spiders and War Walkers are really good.

What specific kind of DE are you facing? I'm sure you could get better replies if you specified whether you're up against BeastStar, Venom spam, or whathaveyou.

im sort of up against a mix of raiders, ravagers, venoms and a small beaststar.

Wave serpents have the efficacy to win this battle most of the time. The contents and rest of your army can really be an after thought. That shield is seriously not fair for DE.

Kill the Ravagers with...almost anything in your book...

Profit!

Well eldar usually doesnt have any problem with de, so i fell the problem is your list. What do you usually run? If its competitive at all you should do fine. if not we can help make it more competitive.

Serpents are fantastic. Keep that shield up while you down the transports with mass S6.

Avoid getting out, as your infantry will ge shredded from the huge amount of anti-infantry firepower the DE have. Avoid Wraith units like the plague. Their High toughness means nothing. Maximise coversaves and psychic support. Take warlocks for larger guardian/jetbike squads and get conceal/protect.

Units like Swooping hawks also cause great casualties. They hit those disembarked warriors/wytches REALLY hard, and you can hide them off the board until they have a target. Warp Spiders are also good, and even scoprions can find a use against DE, where they are pretty solid at taking out the MSU's that are left towards the end of the game. Outflank/reserve them

As said above, Wave Serpents are Brutal against DE. They lose the ability to claim Jink and AV10 crumples to so much S6 shooting.

Take 3 Wave Serpents and combine it with 1st turn. As soon as you've taken out the Dark Lances you've all but won.

Eldar (specifically Mechdar) is probably Dark Eldar's worst match-up at the minute.

Iranna.

How do they lose the ability to claim jink? And ive sort of just started eldar but im doing well with this sort of list. What do people do about night fight btw?

my 1500pt list

Avatar - fast shot, crushing blow
Farseer-jetbike, mantle,singing spear

3 squads of three gjb with shuriken cannon in each squad

Wave serpent hfields shuriken cannon scatter laser

wraithguard x5

5 fire dragons with exarch -fast shot wave serpent above

5 warp spiders and exarch fast shot spinneret rifle

war walkers x 3 with 3 sl and 3 bl

Fire prism

I have plenty of other eldar models apart from wraithknight and a few others.

Thanks for the other replies!

Pretty good list, you shouldn't have a problem.

serpent sheild ignroes cover, so good bye jink.

Oh yeah of course I knew that! Duh. (about jink)

DE are great at killing MC's, so consider dropping the Avatar altogether. Keep your bikes in reserve to protect them from the mass poison fire. Your AT is more than enough to waste any DE planes, but it lacks the hard dakka to deal with the squishy troops. Consider adding a squad of swooping hawks. They can drop in turn 2-3 to clean up any footsloggers left from the wrecks/explosions of raiders and venoms. Their dakka will straight waste any infantary short of grotesques.

 Dr. Serling wrote:
DE are great at killing MC's, so consider dropping the Avatar altogether. Keep your bikes in reserve to protect them from the mass poison fire. Your AT is more than enough to waste any DE planes, but it lacks the hard dakka to deal with the squishy troops. Consider adding a squad of swooping hawks. They can drop in turn 2-3 to clean up any footsloggers left from the wrecks/explosions of raiders and venoms. Their dakka will straight waste any infantary short of grotesques.

While I'd normally recommend a sunrifle exarch, he would be wasted here.

 Dr. Serling wrote:
DE are great at killing MC's, so consider dropping the Avatar altogether. Keep your bikes in reserve to protect them from the mass poison fire. Your AT is more than enough to waste any DE planes, but it lacks the hard dakka to deal with the squishy troops. Consider adding a squad of swooping hawks. They can drop in turn 2-3 to clean up any footsloggers left from the wrecks/explosions of raiders and venoms. Their dakka will straight waste any infantary short of grotesques.

What sort of squad size would you suggest i take? Do you think adding more foot troops would be a good idea or not? ie 20 dire avengers or 10 guardians with scatter laser? Thanks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Dr. Serling wrote:
DE are great at killing MC's, so consider dropping the Avatar altogether. Keep your bikes in reserve to protect them from the mass poison fire. Your AT is more than enough to waste any DE planes, but it lacks the hard dakka to deal with the squishy troops. Consider adding a squad of swooping hawks. They can drop in turn 2-3 to clean up any footsloggers left from the wrecks/explosions of raiders and venoms. Their dakka will straight waste any infantary short of grotesques.

What sort of squad size would you suggest i take? Do you think adding more foot troops would be a good idea or not? ie 20 dire avengers or 10 guardians with scatter laser? Thanks.

Gork and Mork wrote:


What sort of squad size would you suggest i take? Do you think adding more foot troops would be a good idea or not? ie 20 dire avengers or 10 guardians with scatter laser? Thanks.

For Swooping Hawks, the optimum squad size is 6 models, with an Exarch. This gives you a S4 AP4 Large Blast marker which uses BS5 and has "Ignores Cover".

Iranna.

 Iranna wrote:

Gork and Mork wrote:


What sort of squad size would you suggest i take? Do you think adding more foot troops would be a good idea or not? ie 20 dire avengers or 10 guardians with scatter laser? Thanks.

For Swooping Hawks, the optimum squad size is 6 models, with an Exarch. This gives you a S4 AP4 Large Blast marker which uses BS5 and has "Ignores Cover".

Iranna.

Iranna, would you recommend the Hawk's Talon at all?

 ductvader wrote:


Iranna, would you recommend the Hawk's Talon at all?

Personally, I would always choose the Sunrifle over anything. However, given the current match-up, I wouldn't recommend any weapon upgrade for the exarch. The lasblasters do enough damage as it is and you're only really taking them for the Ignores Cover Large Blast.

Iranna.

I recommend the same loudout as Iranna. I used the Sunrifle for a while, but found that 15 points for a chance at Blind isn't really all that great.

OTOH, 10 points for BS5 grenade pack and grenade throw seems well worth it.

What do people think about using more dire avengers/guardians? Are they useful or too weak? Thanks

If you are taking guardians or dire avengers, take them in transports as they will get wasted by poison firepower if they are on foot (especially as it will have few other targets to shoot at).

Gork and Mork wrote:
What do people think about using more dire avengers/guardians? Are they useful or too weak? Thanks

Guardians are just generally considered not worth it in pretty much any context.

Now then, everything I say beyond this point will be specifically about an Eldar vs. Dark Eldar context, as per the topic. Don't take this advice as TAC tactics advice, though it may hold true versus other armies too.

Foot troops, other than Warp Spiders, should only be taken to unlock Wave Serpents. DE is a book filled with low toughness, weak armour saves, and AV10-11. The strengths to compliment those weaknesses consist of a -massive- amount of anti-infantry shooting, massive amounts of poison (often provided by the same weapons doing the anti-infantry shooting), a ton of anti-vehicle weaponry, and high speed. Most foot unis that the Eldar can field just aren't up for countering that. Eldar CC units will never catch them (and are bad). Wraith units will die to the poison and/or S8, AP2 lances and their AP2 weapons are overkill against most everything DE have. Dire Avengers are only ever going to win shooting matches against Dark Lance raiders (I doubt such matches will be relevant anyways). And Fire Dragons are way too much overkill for open-topped AV10-11 vehicles.

The only good foot unit for fighting DE are Warp Spider units. They're fast enough to keep pace, put out a ton of S6-S7 dakka that'll shred DE infantry and vehicles alike, are alright at surviving a reasonable amount of splinter shots, and have two nifty movement tricks (Battle Focus and their warp thing).

Aside from spiders all you really need are 5 man Dire Avengers in Wave Serpents armed with Scatter Lasers and underslung cannons. 7 twin-linked S6 shots are going to mess up any DE vehicle, even if it has a 5+ save. The Serpent Shield will save your ships from DE's usual method of killing vehicles: going for a quick, explosive penetrating hit. And the Serpent's speed will allow it to keep pace with the entire DE army. If you have the points you can even add in holofields, so your Serpents will be rocking AV12, the Shield, and a 4+ jink. It is a tremendously unfair matchup...but it'll be a winner more often than not.

Re: Guardians.

Scatter Laser is wasted on guardians if you are going to bring them. Scatter Lasers are great on any of the vehicles that take them because they are also rocking other big guns that tend to benefit greatly from the laser lock ability. Guardians at 12" range? Yea Laser Lock ain't gonna do a whole lot. You're better off with a Shuriken Cannon for use inside a guardian squad, as if that's the only thing being shot from a squad it'll do more damage, typically, than a scatter laser will for 5 less points. 3 shots at AP5 with bladestorm > 4 shots at AP6.

And as a lot of people pointed out, Guardians in general aren't really all that great right now to begin with so there's that.

 SRSFACE wrote:
And as a lot of people pointed out, Guardians in general aren't really all that great right now to begin with so there's that.

I personally didn't think this was the consensus at all.

I run 30 guardians in every list, and they've yet to disappoint me, as their boots only hit the ground on turn four or five, their 20 shots tends to be enough to mop up whatever is left.

I agree, Guardians outclass Dire Avengers by a long shot.

The only thing that DAs have over the Guardians is an extra 6"range, not really worth an extra 4pts a model if you ask me, especially with Battle Focus.

Iranna.

 Iranna wrote:
I agree, Guardians outclass Dire Avengers by a long shot.

The only thing that DAs have over the Guardians is an extra 6"range, not really worth an extra 4pts a model if you ask me, especially with Battle Focus.

Iranna.

I definately agree with this, my dire avengers have only seen action once since the new codex hit. Compared to before when they were in almost every list because guardians sucked so hard back then.

 Iranna wrote:
I agree, Guardians outclass Dire Avengers by a long shot.

The only thing that DAs have over the Guardians is an extra 6"range, not really worth an extra 4pts a model if you ask me, especially with Battle Focus.

Iranna.

Well there is one reason to use dire avengers over guardians that no one seams to be saying....
Minimum dire avengers are 65 points.
minimum gaudians are 90
that 25 point difference is good enough for me to take min dire avengers in serpents than guardians.

Thanks for the replies. Just out of interest is there other ways to beat de without using wave serpent spam? Has anybody got an example list they have used to beat them that consists of only 1 or 2 serpents? Thanks again

Gork and Mork wrote:
Thanks for the replies. Just out of interest is there other ways to beat de without using wave serpent spam? Has anybody got an example list they have used to beat them that consists of only 1 or 2 serpents? Thanks again

Warp Spiders, the Solitaire, War Walkers, Vaul's Wrath, Nightspinner...these aren't bad options...they just aren't as good.

And you can take serpents without spamming them...I run three with different units in them.

Most Eldar lists should be able to take on a DE list quite comfortably. the only one I wouldn't recommend is Wraith units because of the poison.