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Ideas?

Personally I think they look intimidating at first glance, but turn out to be easily taken advantage of.

Their main danger comes from the once-per-game ability to make their weapons S10, I4 and AP2. Once that round has passed, their cc-weapons are relatively harmless for MEQ players.

Shooting at these guys wont really work as they are just as resilient to fire as Hammernators are, with the added bonus of locking their shields together (T5) and becoming even more resilient to small arms fire. And maybe the Dark Angels player *wants* you to pour all your fire into them to keep the heat off his other units, so bad idea. I know it can be psychologically challenging to ignore them as every nerve in your body wants you to pour so much fire into them as to take them out before they get to activate their weapons....which is exactly what the DA player wants you to think.

So, in order to deal with this 230 point unit, my idea is to build a bubble wrap of standard MEQ troops (say a 10 man tac squad) around whatever expensive unit I'm trying to protect (say, Centurions). If they deep strike next to it, I can charge the Deathwing Knights (no overwatch from them) with my marines and lock them in CC, forcing them to either use up their ability, or keep them locked for at least 2 turns because all their attacks will be AP4. However, lets say they did activate their weapons and wiped out the SM squad. They could still charge the Centurions next turn, maybe losing 1 guy to all the Grav Fire, and, granted, they wont be able to take out many Centurions after that charge, but neither are the Cents able to "escape", so thereby the Knights have already tied up the Cents, which is the goal of the DA player anyway.

Another idea I had was to use a Hammernator squad against them. Hammernators are just as resilient, but the Knights have superior WS and hit just as hard (and first!) during 1 round of combat, potentially having caused more casualties to the Hammernators than vice versa, and can then simply rely on their superior WS to keep the edge over the diminished termie squad despite only having AP4 weapons now. How do you think this combat will play out?

What do you think? Throwing 4+ save units at them is foolishness because their weapons will wipe them out without them having to use their ability. Unless said unit is a 50 man IG blob, that is. But then again a 50 man guardsman blob costs 200 points, so youre using those points to tie up a 220 point unit from blowing up your 160 point tank? Great logic...

Deathwing Knights have a tendency to deal with themselves almost. Spread apart - you're right, they're Hammernators for saves. Since 6th ed began those have been killed by small arms fire something they should be proof against /grumble). Locked together they are more resilient to this, but line up perfectly to suffer from blasts (a single TFC will wreak havoc here). Generally speaking, if you can't kill them with guns then throwing chaff at them is certainly feasible (3+ chaff, anyway). Else play keep away. They're just as slow as Hammernators (very).

Just deal enough damage to remove them? Small arms fire deletes them.

They, like all terminators, are rather poor in this edition. AP and small arms fire + slow movement means they do rather little except against the very narrow types of units they crush. At best they deep strike accurately and cause you to make a choice or two, maybe en masse via Deathwing assault.

Mobility has killed most elite walking melee units effectiveness, they simply will never get to where they need to go or kill what they need to kill against someone who pays attention in their movement phase. At least Paladins and Chaos terminators field shooting at a reasonable price point, though again they are still too slow to see meaningful combat.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also note that a 50 man guard blob will simply kill all of them in close combat, or simply by shooting them 100 times up close.

Small arms fire brings my Knights down (and regular terms) faster than anything else.

Also, don't forget the flail is AP3. Knights do just fine vs MEQ. They reliably kill 3-5 a turn for me, but like you said a 10 man squad will tie them up for a turn or two, which can be just enough to deal with them. I wouldn't hesitate to use Smite against a tactical squad, as not using smite might result in me not getting another chance to use it. Besides, I don't need to kill your Cents, I just need to prevent them from shooting. They can do that with or without smite mode.

Knights are great by default, but in the right hands they can be game changing. My favorite way to run them is in an LRC with Ezekiel for WS6.

UnadoptedPuppy wrote:
Knights are great by default, but in the right hands they can be game changing. My favorite way to run them is in an LRC with Ezekiel for WS6.

Which costs you 650-680 points, so that should be a game changer by default or you're doing it wrong.

 Sir Arun wrote:

UnadoptedPuppy wrote:
Knights are great by default, but in the right hands they can be game changing. My favorite way to run them is in an LRC with Ezekiel for WS6.

Which costs you 650-680 points, so that should be a game changer by default or you're doing it wrong.

Exaaaactly. But if you lose the raider first turn...those points aren't changing much.

I used them in a 5 round 1850 Tournament once with a Termie Libby every game, using a L.B Drop Pod squad to guide them in every game.

Basically, they work best when they have a specialized target to attack. This can be a monstrous creature like a Blood Thirster (though in my case even with Smite I only tarpitted it for a long time) or MEQ or worse objective defenders in low numbers generally.

I actually had most players remark that they were definitely hard to kill as most players didn't gamble in list making with bringing the tools to crack them specifically. Usually, they died to being whittled down by small arms fire/CC attacks (on one occassion I lost 3 of the sods to Sniper Rifle Scouts over two turns by their shooting and then overwatch) or being in a bad position after a very poor smite round.

The greatest way to neuter them is to delay them, move away from them and throw what spare small arms at them you can. I would not ignore them at all unless they pose a very limited threat in the general scheme of things or attempting to kill them is fruitless and killing something else is of higher value, which will probably be the case.

In a TAC list, don't take CC orientated counter units, because against too many other armies which focus on shooting and distance in today's meta they'll be relatively crap.

 Mr.Omega wrote:
because against too many other armies which focus on shooting and distance in today's meta they'll be relatively crap.

and yet with 6th seeing the arrival of riptides, wraithknights etc. on the table resilient units like hammernators are needed more than ever to wither the low AP spam and take them out.

 Sir Arun wrote:

 Mr.Omega wrote:
because against too many other armies which focus on shooting and distance in today's meta they'll be relatively crap.

and yet with 6th seeing the arrival of riptides, wraithknights etc. on the table resilient units like hammernators are needed more than ever to wither the low AP spam and take them out.

Hardly, Hammernators are a terrible counter to those units and have awful implementation in TAC lists.

A Hammernator squad will at best, work its way through 2 Riptides if your opponent is a complete dolt / had the spatial awareness of a blind cat. This is the best case, extremely unlikely scenario we're hoping for here.

Ask yourself this question.

By what manner do they reach the enemy?

-You can't rely on a single Land Raider, especially not in a TAC list, and especially not against Eldar who can reliably pop it turn one from 48'' away with lances. Even if you do take a Land Raider this strategy now costs more than, or close to double that of the single Riptide/Knight you only have a barely feasible chance of reaching it and then killing it. In order to fit in a second similar squad you need to cripple your list structure and base your entire list around the squads, all because you're being scared of Riptides and Wraith Knights.

-If you deepstrike them, they'll either die (225+ points down the drain) be weakened considerably (good luck killing the Knight at all now unless your Hammernator unit was greater than 5 and thus cost inefficient anyway) so their odds of being successful are severely limited, or be put in a position where your opponent can ignore them by tarpitting them, throwing screens in their face, etc.

The ultimate nail in the coffin of the Hammernator is logistics. Its just not efficient to pour your resources into a unit that facilitates an unreliable and limited capacity to perform a specific role.

I agree with you if you are a ranged SM player who only deepstrikes them; they will receive the brunt of the enemy fire and evaporate.

As a BT player though, I use a frontal assault armylist where I essentially throw everything forward.

I only use the hammernators at 1750p and up, and in these lists they deepstrike and are accompanied by a turn 1 landing drop podded 10 man crusader squad with captain attached; a deep striking land speeder with mm, a LRC driving up bearing another 10 man unit, melta, power sword and power fist, etc.

 Sir Arun wrote:
I agree with you if you are a ranged SM player who only deepstrikes them; they will receive the brunt of the enemy fire and evaporate.

As a BT player though, I use a frontal assault armylist where I essentially throw everything forward.

I only use the hammernators at 1750p and up, and in these lists they deepstrike and are accompanied by a turn 1 landing drop podded 10 man crusader squad with captain attached; a deep striking land speeder with mm, a LRC driving up bearing another 10 man unit, melta, power sword and power fist, etc.

Except only the Hammernators and the Land Speeder pose a realistic threat to the Riptides/Knights, and considering that buffed Firewarriors putting out 3 S5 shots each or Guardians/Dire Avengers with accurate rending rapid fire guns are the arse-end of your opponent's firepower alone, if your opponent believes the Hammernators threaten him greatly within 1-2 turns they won't be hard to at the very least weaken. Tactical/Crusader Marines are very easy to ignore, unless you're using a SETH Captain (which poses a problem in that the turn after he leaves the squad he'll evaporate to small arms) and the single power fist might, if you're very lucky rout and cause a sweep on a Riptide if you by some miraculous chance get to charge it, but it'll struggle considerably more against the Knight.

Why not just invest in Sternguard? For 225 you can have 5-6 combi-weapon dudes in a drop pod that can easily shave half the wounds off a Riptide/Knight the turn they arrive.

 Mr.Omega wrote:
Why not just invest in Sternguard? For 225 you can have 5-6 combi-weapon dudes in a drop pod that can easily shave half the wounds off a Riptide/Knight the turn they arrive.

Because they are a one-trick pony in that they can pull off that stunt for only 1 turn with their combi-weapons, and even if I gave all of them special weapons, the Riptide still has that 3++ inv. save unless I get first turn and my pod arrives on turn 1.

Either way, the main issue is that Sternguard kill from range, and that means they dont kill in cc, and that means the entire enemy army can empty their fire onto them, which on the other hand they can only do for 1 turn on the hammernators before I get them into cc. The RIptide can only survive so many bonks before its 3++ fails it. Most importantly of all, it is prevented from shooting, which isnt the case when Sternguard are trying to kill it.

And a bunch of 3+ armor save guys with no invuln *will* evaporate way faster than even half as many 2+/3++ guys.

Yes, but the Knights are able to be ignored. When i've faced the deathwing knights, I just stay away from them, or feed them something sacrificial for a turn until i've got enought shooting to bring to bear.

Being a CC unit, they have the same weaknesses that most/all CC infantry have. Being terrible. Sternguard have one distinct advantage over the knights. They will (assuming you don't roll terribly for your DS) always get a single round of damage in before they get blasted to bits.

Against a half smart player, playing with a balanced list Deathwing knights will spend the game running around wishing they could use their Smite ability somewhere. The only reason I see to take them, is that the models look pretty badass

I've played with the DA codex extensively when it came out, and I agree with the general consensus:

DW Knights on foot = dead/ignored DW Knights

To make them truly work you want to:

-dictate who you're assaulting (not the other way around)
-get the charge (for the extra A)

I would never field them outside of a LR, and ideally I would throw an Interrogator-Chaplain in the mix or Libby to maximize their potential. While they are cheaper than TH/SS DW termies, they still take a good chunk of points, you don't want to waste those points spending the game running after that Wraithknight/Riptide waiving that mace in the air and yelling curses while your target hops away laughing...

Ezekiel + Interrogator-Chaplain/TDA/Uber-Mace + 6x DW Knights + LRC for lolz.