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Can't let that last one go. Which witch fire power specifically do you plan on rolling and using? Are you rolling Tzeentch? Pyromancy?
Burning Brand is not only better AS a witch fire than any other witch fire power, it ISN'T one. That means no warp charge, no deny the witch and no psyker test.
Wasting warp charge on witch fire (perhaps psy shriek or last memory are worth it) is probably a wasted opportunity.
Or look at your sorcerer as a level 4, with a free awesome undeniable built in sweet witch fire power called the burning brand.

You could try a Black Legion Sorcerer on a bike with the Last Memory of Yuranthros.

That gives you a ML4 generic sorcerer with a pretty good Nova power and (I believe) 4 rolls for powers.

Iranna.

I never ever.. ever..ever..Mark my sorcerors. It's a bad idea given the BRB powers are so much better. I stick him on a bike and let him ride with my chaos spawn, if he gets endurance then they go from great to amazing, or invis is also good.

 ansacs wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
Yeah i am a big fan of the Black Legion now as well. i just JUST started using that Codex and it is cool on multiple frontsd. i am going to blog on it next actually.

Nice, I would be interested in that as I have not gotten a chance to play with 70%+ of that supplement. I don't have Abadon or chosen and with all the new releases my time is pretty thin on any one army.

The chosen troops looks like it could have some pretty cool applications. The rerollable 3++ invulnerable you can get on a lord or DP also seems like it could be good.

Okay, scope out the blog and it will be up in a day or two.

My preferred method of fielding sorc

Sorc naked

2 squads of cultists in reserve

Max fast attack slot
Max heavy support slot

Ally black legion
Sorc with votlw

Cultists

4th FA
4th HS

Iranna wrote:You could try a Black Legion Sorcerer on a bike with the Last Memory of Yuranthros.

That gives you a ML4 generic sorcerer with a pretty good Nova power and (I believe) 4 rolls for powers.

Iranna.

Only 3 rolls. The last memory specifies so. However even if you don't use the nova the extra warp charge can help put out invisibility along with 2 other powers. Gotta love that.

Kirasu wrote:I never ever.. ever..ever..Mark my sorcerors. It's a bad idea given the BRB powers are so much better. I stick him on a bike and let him ride with my chaos spawn, if he gets endurance then they go from great to amazing, or invis is also good.

The BRB powers are better in a overall sense against an unspecified opponent but the Slaanesh and nurgle tables can be pretty good if your army and sorcerer are built to take advantage. The Tzeentch table is just so horrible it should not be mentioned and must be part of some plot to remove the competition.

 Iranna wrote:
You could try a Black Legion Sorcerer on a bike with the Last Memory of Yuranthros.

That gives you a ML4 generic sorcerer with a pretty good Nova power and (I believe) 4 rolls for powers.

Iranna.

3 rolls, your 4th level ability is the nova from Last Memory.

My main problem is that they didn't keep sorcs as pretty much psychic lords with slightly less combat potential like in the past.
It was fluffier since CSM warbands can often have a sorceror leading them unlike in regular SM armies where librarians are just another part of the rank structure.
I feel it was a missed opportunity to make CSM more unique.

As it stands, sorcs are pretty good, but it's tough for me to invest that many points into 2 wounds when I can get an uber Killy lord for the same cost with much much more combat potential. In combat, a Sorc is pretty much the same as 2 marines vs most enemies.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Another HUGE thing is that the sorceror is not fearless. So he needs to be babysat.

Thanks for all the great replies, Erm one of you said that taking mark powers is good if your entire army is based on that, like my Nurgle army. But I will try the generic ones

Well, marked sorcerers can be worth it if you want something specific. A level 3 sorcerer with a mark can just flatly state "I'll be taking my book powers."

Ecstatic seizures, for example, is worse than the book power of hallucination, but maybe you get hallucination, while you can guarantee getting ecstatic seizures.

Not a big thing, but, you know...

 Ailaros wrote:
Well, marked sorcerers can be worth it if you want something specific. A level 3 sorcerer with a mark can just flatly state "I'll be taking my book powers."

Ecstatic seizures, for example, is worse than the book power of hallucination, but maybe you get hallucination, while you can guarantee getting ecstatic seizures.

Not a big thing, but, you know...

You can only generate half your power from the Chaos Codex, so there will still be some uncertainty.

Oh, nevermind, then.

But still, an unmarked chaos sorceror with 3 mastery levels is an excellent support unit.

Right, I was just trying to find a silver lining to marked ones.

 Ailaros wrote:

That maulerfiend... pssh! A flimsy AV12 vehicle, that's going to be killed before it...

wait... it gets a 2+ cover save? And then it ignores terrain as it moves 12" forwards, and then rerolls the lowest dice on its charge roll and then in close combat I can only hit it on 5's and it has a 5++ and rerolls failed to-hits and to wounds with free melta hits? Stop, please stop! Oh gods, invisible maulerfiend! Somebody save me!

You, good sir, made me laugh malevolently IRL.

I -got- to try that gak.

Seems lovely.

Maulerfiend was just moved up slightly on my checklist...

Reroll hits and wounds, which power is that now again?

Demonforge.

I actually saw this in action once. SW player cockily rolls forward his land raider filled with logan grimnar and his choice buddies. Invisible maulerfiend moves from being out of LOS forward 12", then rolls a 9 on its charge range (thanks to fleet), and makes it into close combat with the land raider. Hits with his S10/free melta hits and I believe exploded the raider (he could have just HPed it out, though).

The next turn, some longfangs open fire on it with similarly good rolling and get 4 hits for 3 pens and a glance. The three pens are sloughed off with stealth/shrouded cover saves. Then the angry, angry wolf guard and grimnar charge in. Their attacks only hit on 5's, though, so only a few land, and not everyone had a powerfist, and it's AV12, and he still had a 5++, so he didn't take any damage. Then, in return, he popped demon forge and basically ate the wolf guard. The turn after (with another casting of invisibility), the maulerfiend ate grimnar, and then made his IWND check, and got his hull point back.

At the top of turn 3, the space wolf player was left slack-jawed as an unhurt maulerfiend bellowed its roar over the remains of a land raider, four wolf-guard, and logan grimnar. That was, what 800 points? Certainly it was the centerpiece of the entire attack. Needless to say, it got taken down immediately by 100% of the SW firepower poured into it, but still...

Had I the money, I would have purchased a maulerfiend right there and then. I love the unit so much, but it always had a few nagging problems. Nagging problems that invisibility completely fixes.

Invisibility truly is a mighty power. And I had completely forgotten about Daemonforge.

I suspected it could be used to great effect when my Farseer used it to allow a 20 Guardian blob to tank stupid amounts of firepower.

This seems just great and something I need to try.

But wouldn't the tentacles be better to reduce incoming attacks? Reducing a PK nob to 1 attack per turn that hits on 5+, does damage on 4+ and that you then get to save and take IWND against allows it to take out even the hammerpit that is a 30 boyz mob with a PK nob, despite not being a character.

Those Terminators from your example would have been down to 1 attack per model, and if worst comes to worst and you must charge a Wraithknight, he gets -2 attacks that hit on 5+ and suddenly becomes much less scary.

Man, I just don't know. I feel like it's a bad investment to take the lashes ever on a Maulerfiend. Most of the scariest things you'd fight with it you're going to take out in the shooting phase if at all possible, and the big killer is it's 10 points. I really dislike spending points that REDUCE my killing power substantially for something that only marginally increases my defensive capabilities, and only against the types of things I'd be trying to avoid in combat to begin with.

 herpguy wrote:
My main problem is that they didn't keep sorcs as pretty much psychic lords with slightly less combat potential like in the past.
It was fluffier since CSM warbands can often have a sorceror leading them unlike in regular SM armies where librarians are just another part of the rank structure.
I feel it was a missed opportunity to make CSM more unique.

As it stands, sorcs are pretty good, but it's tough for me to invest that many points into 2 wounds when I can get an uber Killy lord for the same cost with much much more combat potential. In combat, a Sorc is pretty much the same as 2 marines vs most enemies.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Another HUGE thing is that the sorceror is not fearless. So he needs to be babysat.

I do miss when you had Chaos Lord Sorcerers..

3.5 days though, gotta adjust to having Librarian statted sorcs.

 SRSFACE wrote:
Man, I just don't know. I feel like it's a bad investment to take the lashes ever on a Maulerfiend. Most of the scariest things you'd fight with it you're going to take out in the shooting phase if at all possible, and the big killer is it's 10 points. I really dislike spending points that REDUCE my killing power substantially for something that only marginally increases my defensive capabilities, and only against the types of things I'd be trying to avoid in combat to begin with.

To be fair though, so many S10 AP2 attacks are going to reduce most things the Cutters are good against to mush anyway.

You can't always choose your targets, and what if you face a green tide?

I'm not sold on lashes in general, but you especially don't need them with invisibility. You're already at such an advantage durability-wise.

Plus, in the anecdore I shared, the free melta hits were real useful against that land raider, and the combination of the meltas and demonforge meant that he got two free melta hits on terminators.

Maybe it's just my Khorne way of thinking, but I'd think it's better to reduce the amount of incoming hits by killing more stuff faster than to reduce them by some other way.

Oh, I also forgot to mention, in that anecdote, it started turn 1. That meant that the maulerfiend got first blood with the raider, and slay the warlord with grimnar, and it was all those points killed in the first two turns...

I suppose you're right. Of course, that saves me another set of tendrils, which means even more tentacles for my hentai japanese schoolgi- I mean my extremely Chaosy custom Daemon Engine!

I recall the idea being tossed around for Daemon allies to Grimoire the Maulerfiend - as it is technically a Daemon. 3++ Maulerfiends with Invisibility are just silly.

There's a batrep HERE wherein a Chaos Sorcerer stand-in (Be'lakor in this instance) renders a maulerfiend invisible to Shakespearean effect. Drama, Comedy, and Tragedy ensue.

 Ailaros wrote:
...and rerolls failed to-hits and to wounds with free melta hits? Stop, please stop! Oh gods, invisible maulerfiend! Somebody save me!

Just a heads up you likely already know;
"Daemonforge: ...the model may re-roll all failed To Wound rolls and all failed armour penetration rolls."
So no re-rolls To Hit. Still awesome though.

@Brymm: Both Telepathy and Biomancy, two of our better options, have witchfires as their primaris powers. Yes you don't always take a primaris, but sometimes they're just straight up better or more currently useful than some of the other options. Haemorrhage vs Smite? Easy choice.
And if you are playing a Marked sorcerer for whatever reason, then you're even more likely to end up with a witchfire power. 3/4 Tzeentch powers (lame as they are) are witchfires; 2/4 Nurgle; and 2/4 Slaanesh.
Regardless of what list you're rolling on, or whether you enjoy insulting my intelligence by presuming I spam Tzeentchian or Pyro psykers, witchfires are going to show up.

 ansacs wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
Yeah i am a big fan of the Black Legion now as well. i just JUST started using that Codex and it is cool on multiple frontsd. i am going to blog on it next actually.

Nice, I would be interested in that as I have not gotten a chance to play with 70%+ of that supplement. I don't have Abadon or chosen and with all the new releases my time is pretty thin on any one army.

The chosen troops looks like it could have some pretty cool applications. The rerollable 3++ invulnerable you can get on a lord or DP also seems like it could be good.

OKely dokely, here is the link for that Black Legion blog I promised:
The Dread Black Legion.

feel free to tell me what you think.

Dig the blog, nice to see some more CSM love!

Question for everyone;
Which Psyker lists do you all roll on, and how do you decide if/when to swap to a different list with the Sorc?
And with Be'lakor now a viable option, do you run a backup psyker with him? If so, do you go for more telepathy powers or spread out?

I get why everyone dumps on the Tzeentch tree, but I love me some Doombolt. It's a really solid witchfire. I just wish it was the Primaris and they completely redid the rest of the tree.

 Brymm wrote:
As someone working continuously to make Chaos Space Marines good as a primary detachment, I believe that the Sorcerer is the linchpin to making one viable.
I've been running dual Sorcerers on Bikes with my fast-assault list to great effect. Each one is an unmarked level 3 with familiar running with 5 Nurgle Spawn each. One has the burning brand, because hey, it's awesome.
Now, you've got options. You have six rolls on two amazing charts: Biomancy and Telepathy. Endurance, Invisibility, Enfeeble, Dominate, Terrify, Hallucination... I'm in Chaos Heaven! So not that 17 T6 (or 34 if you count both squads!) wounds wasn't enough, how about give them IWND, Stealth, Shrouding and FNP? Oh, and you usually deny on a 4+!
I consider the Sorcerers the only thing keeping me actually competitive. Sure, a single Heldrake carries its weight and then some, but he often receives too much credit for why my list is performing. Just as Tzeentch would have it...

FINALLY, somebody that knows the value of the best unit in the CSM codex = 5 x Spawn w/ MoN. You just have to use them correctly. I always run 1 unit + 1 drake, debating if I want another unit of spawn or a turkey.

Around 1k - 1250 pointer games I use a very cheap sorcerer as my HQ. Rolling on Biomancy or Telepathy.
The absence of divination is, in my opinion, a weakness (otherwise they would practically be an insta-purchase for almost any list) but they still have their uses if kept reasonably cheap.

Besides, you can get a Herald of Tzeentch for divination from allied Daemons.

 Laughingcarp wrote:
Dig the blog, nice to see some more CSM love!

Question for everyone;
Which Psyker lists do you all roll on, and how do you decide if/when to swap to a different list with the Sorc?
And with Be'lakor now a viable option, do you run a backup psyker with him? If so, do you go for more telepathy powers or spread out?

I go for Telepathy, personally. My Psyker is level 1, and so it matters little what i roll, I usualy default to Psychic Scream. However, Puppetmaster is pretty cool and depending on who I face, i might actually take that one.