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Ok, it's pretty unanimous that VVs suck. Not only can they no longer charge from deepstrike, which was rarely used anyway, but their assault ability is a bigger let down than MIley Cyrus' career choices.

So, let's get down to brass tacks here: how do we make these guys better? Their main problems are:

Durability
Hitting power
Cost

In fact, the only thing they really have going for them is mobility - when they have Jump packs slapped on. Yeah...

So, how would you fix VVs?

An assault marine with a JP is 17pts. A VV naked is 19pts and the only difference is 1 extra attack and +1 leadership along with a useless "heroic intervention" rule.

A fair fix might be to just give VVs jump packs standard at 19pts.

Ultimately, however, in the current meta a marine in the open is just asking to be killed, no getting around that no matter how cheap a model is.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 buddha wrote:
An assault marine with a JP is 17pts. A VV naked is 19pts and the only difference is 1 extra attack and +1 leadership along with a useless "heroic intervention" rule.

A fair fix might be to just give VVs jump packs standard at 19pts.

Ultimately, however, in the current meta a marine in the open is just asking to be killed, no getting around that no matter how cheap a model is.

Exactly and the only way to make them survivable is to increase their point cost with storm shields, making them even more points. They aren't really that cost efficient

They're pretty good in a landraider. And that's basically the only way they can use heroic intervention with some good purpose. Just don't overhaul them too much.

I use them in my ravenguard and there not actually bad at all, again not that expensive as long as you dont go nuts with the upgrades, if anything i agree with the above and just make them 19pts with the jump pack

Free jumppacks and maybe 10pt power weapons or 5pt stormsheilds, but thats probably pushing it.

What about 10 pts reduction on gear upgrades per every 5 models? In fluff they've got some battle trophies and chapter rare gear with them. So you can take a free stormshield or get a 15 pts powerfist for every 5 guyz in your squad. Not counting indeps, ofc.

22 PPM with Power Weapon standard, allow Jump Pack upgrade for 3 PPM. You get a unit that's essentially Honour Guard, except it trades Artificier Armour for a Jump Pack. I'd say that's fair.

Here's my two cents worth:

21pts. per model with Jump Pack included. Also give them the option to trade their Jump packs for Rhino, Razorback, or Drop
Pod, just like Assault Marines.

Heroic Intervention: If a unit with this special rule joined an ongoing close combat in the Charge Sub-phase, the unit gains +2 Initiative for the following Fight sub-phase.

 alienvalentine wrote:
Here's my two cents worth:

21pts. per model with Jump Pack included. Also give them the option to trade their Jump packs for Rhino, Razorback, or Drop
Pod, just like Assault Marines.

Heroic Intervention: If a unit with this special rule joined an ongoing close combat in the Charge Sub-phase, the unit gains +2 Initiative for the following Fight sub-phase.

I like how that sounds. Not that powerful, but fancy

I second that, actually. It makes sense, fits the fluff, and doesn't strike me as OP.

AlmightyWalrus' idea is also good I think.

Really i just wanted them to be ws5, but the jump pack for cheap as an option is good idea.

Eihnlazer wrote:
Really i just wanted them to be ws5, but the jump pack for cheap as an option is good idea.

WS5 for the sarge at least would have been nice.

Start them at twenty points with Jump Packs included in the cost and the charge-from-Deep-Strike option returned (specific wording taken from the Blood Angels Codex: before Deep Strike scatter dice are rolled declare Heroic Intervention (we may have to rename it, let's call it Dramatic Entrance for now), if you do so the unit can't do anything in the Shooting phase but may charge in the Assault phase, they count as charging with the jump packs). I'd think that'd help with durability and cost, as for punch I don't think that's quite as pressing of an issue.

I'm very much of the opinion that fixing one of the issues (Durability, hitting power or cost) would work wonders for VVs (aka fixing them.)

So, slap on JPs for free, give them Vanguard Strike (Dramatic Entrace ), that's already cost reduced with a slight buff.

Dynamic Entry? :p

If you allow them to assault from deepstrike - you need to make them more expensive. Cause the only ones who can do it right now are vulcha boyz. And they're just orkses with 6+ armor, ini 2 and no safe mechanics on deepstrike unlike locator beacons sm have. Also, if you declare you want to charge from deepstrike - you instantly kill d3 boyz and it does count towards assault results. And zaggy is pretty costly. 10 boyz with zaggy cost 200+ pts.

 koooaei wrote:
If you allow them to assault from deepstrike - you need to make them more expensive. Cause the only ones who can do it right now are vulcha boyz. And they're just orkses with 6+ armor, ini 2 and no safe mechanics on deepstrike unlike locator beacons sm have. Also, if you declare you want to charge from deepstrike - you instantly kill d3 boyz and it does count towards assault results. And zaggy is pretty costly. 10 boyz with zaggy cost 200+ pts.

You forgot Blood Angels' Vanguard Veterans, who have Descent of Angels for increased Deep Strike accuracy, though they're unfortunately thirty points a guy with jump packs before upgrade weapons. Twenty-point assault-from-Deep-Strike Vanguard Veterans that still have to pay for any upgrade weapons and don't come with a native Deep Strike accuracy buff doesn't seem overly outrageous; they could be as much as 25pts base and they'd still be usable, though.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
If you allow them to assault from deepstrike - you need to make them more expensive. Cause the only ones who can do it right now are vulcha boyz. And they're just orkses with 6+ armor, ini 2 and no safe mechanics on deepstrike unlike locator beacons sm have. Also, if you declare you want to charge from deepstrike - you instantly kill d3 boyz and it does count towards assault results. And zaggy is pretty costly. 10 boyz with zaggy cost 200+ pts.

You forgot Blood Angels' Vanguard Veterans, who have Descent of Angels for increased Deep Strike accuracy, though they're unfortunately thirty points a guy with jump packs before upgrade weapons. Twenty-point assault-from-Deep-Strike Vanguard Veterans that still have to pay for any upgrade weapons and don't come with a native Deep Strike accuracy buff doesn't seem overly outrageous; they could be as much as 25pts base and they'd still be usable, though.

Stormboyz are 12 pts per model and they're just choppaboyz with 6+ armor, s3 and frag nades that ain't very helpful for 2 ini. And d3 are instantly killed if you issue a charge from deepstrike that does count towards assault results. And to allow them charging - they need to pay 85 pt for Zaggy. And you want 20 pt for a veteran marine stat that can assault from deepstrike without any penalties? That's way over the top. Cause basically, 8 marines + powerfist serg will cost like 10 boyz + zaggy. That's like asking for your tacticals to cost 7 pts.

Or you realist that the Ork Codex is the oldest in the game and thus shouldn't be used as a measuring stick for what units should cost. Especially when it's s unit no one takes.

 koooaei wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
If you allow them to assault from deepstrike - you need to make them more expensive. Cause the only ones who can do it right now are vulcha boyz. And they're just orkses with 6+ armor, ini 2 and no safe mechanics on deepstrike unlike locator beacons sm have. Also, if you declare you want to charge from deepstrike - you instantly kill d3 boyz and it does count towards assault results. And zaggy is pretty costly. 10 boyz with zaggy cost 200+ pts.

You forgot Blood Angels' Vanguard Veterans, who have Descent of Angels for increased Deep Strike accuracy, though they're unfortunately thirty points a guy with jump packs before upgrade weapons. Twenty-point assault-from-Deep-Strike Vanguard Veterans that still have to pay for any upgrade weapons and don't come with a native Deep Strike accuracy buff doesn't seem overly outrageous; they could be as much as 25pts base and they'd still be usable, though.

Stormboyz are 12 pts per model and they're just choppaboyz with 6+ armor, s3 and frag nades that ain't very helpful for 2 ini. And d3 are instantly killed if you issue a charge from deepstrike that does count towards assault results. And to allow them charging - they need to pay 85 pt for Zaggy. And you want 20 pt for a veteran marine stat that can assault from deepstrike without any penalties? That's way over the top. Cause basically, 8 marines + powerfist serg will cost like 10 boyz + zaggy. That's like asking for your tacticals to cost 7 pts.

Eight twenty-point Vanguard Vets and a powerfist Sergeant runs to two hundred and five points, rough equivalent of ten and Zaggy; let's compare briefly:
SM unit: 24 WS4/S4/I4 attacks, 32 charging; 3 WS4/S8/AP2/I1 attacks, 4 charging.
Ork unit: 30 WS4/S3/I2 attacks, 40 and S4 charging; 5 WS5/S4/I3 attacks, 6 WS5/S8/AP2/I3 charging.

The Space Marines are more durable, have a higher Ld (almost negated by Zagstruk's bad temper rule), don't have to drop d3 models to charge from Deep Strike, and can buy more weapons, the Orks are running with a two-Wound four-base-attacks character in the squad and have the option to pump the squad size up significantly. So it's looking like the Marines do have an advantage here, but it's far from "ridiculous, your Space Marines are half the price they ought to be"; 25pts for the Vanguard and they'd still be playable.

 koooaei wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
If you allow them to assault from deepstrike - you need to make them more expensive. Cause the only ones who can do it right now are vulcha boyz. And they're just orkses with 6+ armor, ini 2 and no safe mechanics on deepstrike unlike locator beacons sm have. Also, if you declare you want to charge from deepstrike - you instantly kill d3 boyz and it does count towards assault results. And zaggy is pretty costly. 10 boyz with zaggy cost 200+ pts.

You forgot Blood Angels' Vanguard Veterans, who have Descent of Angels for increased Deep Strike accuracy, though they're unfortunately thirty points a guy with jump packs before upgrade weapons. Twenty-point assault-from-Deep-Strike Vanguard Veterans that still have to pay for any upgrade weapons and don't come with a native Deep Strike accuracy buff doesn't seem overly outrageous; they could be as much as 25pts base and they'd still be usable, though.

Stormboyz are 12 pts per model and they're just choppaboyz with 6+ armor, s3 and frag nades that ain't very helpful for 2 ini. And d3 are instantly killed if you issue a charge from deepstrike that does count towards assault results. And to allow them charging - they need to pay 85 pt for Zaggy. And you want 20 pt for a veteran marine stat that can assault from deepstrike without any penalties? That's way over the top. Cause basically, 8 marines + powerfist serg will cost like 10 boyz + zaggy. That's like asking for your tacticals to cost 7 pts.

Ironically, tacticals would still be bad at that price point

The way GW charges for abilities in this game, VV are never going to be good. They were hyper overcosted in 5th, and now they are just ASM++.

Than what's the point of discussing it if you think that tacticals and vets are NEVER gona be good no matter what

Anywayz, if you wana give VV that fancy charge from deepstrike - they must cost around 25 pts for that. So they can act as tank-hunters with stuff like melta bommz or a power-fist and cost around 150. That's very cheap for what they can do allready. Even a barebones 5-strong squad can wipe dedicated shooty squads if allowed to charge from deepstrike.

 koooaei wrote:
Than what's the point of discussing it if you think that tacticals and vets are NEVER gona be good no matter what

Anywayz, if you wana give VV that fancy charge from deepstrike - they must cost around 25 pts for that. So they can act as tank-hunters with stuff like melta bommz or a power-fist and cost around 150. That's very cheap for what they can do allready. Even a barebones 5-strong squad can wipe dedicated shooty squads if allowed to charge from deepstrike.

Yeah, we can't have melee units kill shooty units, that'd just be unfair. /sarcasm

Where did you see that

 koooaei wrote:
Than what's the point of discussing it if you think that tacticals and vets are NEVER gona be good no matter what

Anywayz, if you wana give VV that fancy charge from deepstrike - they must cost around 25 pts for that. So they can act as tank-hunters with stuff like melta bommz or a power-fist and cost around 150. That's very cheap for what they can do allready. Even a barebones 5-strong squad can wipe dedicated shooty squads if allowed to charge from deepstrike.

Not so sure about that. What if the shooty units are GH or CSM with cc weapon? Charge from deepstrike will always be an overpriced mechanic, imo.

Noone forces you to charge what you can't kill. And deepstrike allows you to choose who's gona die. It's super effective even on zaggy and boyz when they happen to work - but they're way harder to use cause of sheer squad number, low ini and armor. If you allow vanguard vets to charge emidiately after deepstrike with their pointcost of around 25 - u'll see them in every second sm list. Not spammable but it's alwayz handy to have one such squad.

Maybe. I doubt I would use them. Especially not without descent of angels.

Yeah, 25 PPM before upgrades (aside from JPs) isn't exactly screaming OP to me. They're gonna be ~30, 35 points after Power weapons.

U need just 5 and meltabombs to kaboom any vehicle. That'd be 150 pts. Fair deal.