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Hi everyone,

In the constant struggle for a good, Take All Comers competitive list (at least at FLGS level), I found what is a solid core of units of which I'm pretty satisfied.


- CSM Lord with Bike, Lightning Claw, Powerfist, Mark of Nurgle, 4++ Invuln.
- 7x Plague Marines with 2 Plasma Guns
- 5x Nurgle Chaos Spawns
- Heldrake
- Heldrake
- 3 x Obliterators with Mark of Nurgle

ALLIES:
- Lord of Change, ML3, Lesser Reward (Staff of Change), Exalted Reward
- 10x Khorne Flesh Hounds



This is quite a fast assault-centric list. I know it lacks 2 troops slots, but I will fill them based on how many spare points I do have.
The big problem here is that I do lack some serious shooting support to soften up the enemy, especially when you deploy along the short edges.

So, here the big question:
Considering a budget of at most 150-200 points (the less the better, of course), which is the best way to increase my shooting?
What I need is a good way to force the opponent with a lot of dice rolls. I've plenty of options to kill MEQs. What I need to kill effectively are hordes of GEQ or force a lot of wounds on TEQs.
There are many options (Havocs with Autocannons, more Oblits, Predators, Soul Grinder and so on) but all of them have their pros and cons. What do you suggest?
Thanks!

Quick question. By Long range do you mean 24-48? Because we haven't really got anything with longer range than that.



If so then take more obliterators. Otherwise take Havocs or a forgefiend with 2 cannons and a ectoplasma launcher.

Personal Opinion - Forgefiend.

2 Hades Autocannons will give you 8 S8 AP4 shots at 48" range and that also have Pinning. That's enough shots to force some wounds onto terminators (and strong enough to double out Paladins) as well as sweep through some hordes. In addition, it provides the added benefit of the daemonforge special rule for when you go against vehicles (even flyers since there's enough shots). The ectoplasm cannon could help you against TEQ; however, I stay away from it since my dice like to roll 1s when I am using plasma-related weapons.

One trick a friend of mine uses with his Forgefiend is to bring a Tzeentch herald as allies (instead of the lord of change) and then cast Prescience onto the forgefiend. Rerolling to hit on 8 shots with that range and strength will force a LOT of wounds and almost a guarenteed wreck vehicle each turn.

For long range I mean 36" or above.
For what regards re-rolling to hit, I have a ML3 Lord of Change, so re-rolling to hit is easy to have

I'm eager to hear some more opinions

I don't know about "competitive" per se but I've proxied my defiler to a soul grinder a few and found it to be usable (with DoN it can be quite resilient). I don't like las preds as much as whats already been mentioned but they're also usable.

CSM can set up a pretty beastly gunline with noise marines + Autocannon Havocs. I keep dreaming of running this army but I'm still trying to get a hold of some noise marines.

Herpguy, just find some regular CSM for cheap, order the noise marine bits from GW, and stick 'em on. I've been hunting noise marines on Ebay for ages and they don't ever sell below retail.

+1 vote for Forgefiend, especially if you can get re-rolls. I'd stick with Hades Cannons, only add Ecto if you feel you need to.

What do you think about the Soul Grinder?

With Phlegm Bombardment and Nurgle it looks pretty good:
AV 13 13 11, 2+ cover save if you stick it even just half behind a ruin, 4+ cover save if someone tries to blow him up with meltas (it has defensive grenades).

Considering I have access to prescience, I would end up with a Large Blast S8 AP3 and 3 snapshots with S7 AP4. All of them rerolling to hit.

Did anyone try it?
The cost is very similar to the Forgefiend, but it has a much improved durability. And I find their firepower to be similar..

Defilers have a long range battle cannon, but considering half the points are for CC it's not really worth it. Heavy Bolter havocs are very effective against guard, and I've also had success with the Forgefiend as mention above. I've had no experience with soulgrinders sorry.

If your firing Phlegm Bombardment then you are firing the harvester cannon as snap shots since its ordnance right?

 Laughingcarp wrote:
Herpguy, just find some regular CSM for cheap, order the noise marine bits from GW, and stick 'em on. I've been hunting noise marines on Ebay for ages and they don't ever sell below retail.

+1 vote for Forgefiend, especially if you can get re-rolls. I'd stick with Hades Cannons, only add Ecto if you feel you need to.

I've been tempted to just go that route but I finally scooped up a good deal on eBay since I've started searching when the codex came out. I can't wait to try them out...

Generally you have this options:

1. Oblits - alwayz good. Nurgle oblits are a tac flexible unit that will alwayz be handy.
2. Pred - I prefer ac/laz sponsons. The cheapest of all. Generally not bad, has nice durability at range but is vulnerable to fast oflanking at. Though, if the opponent spends time on shooting down a 115 pts 13-11-10 tank it's likely to make the points back by it's sheer presence. Has low mobility cause you have to stay in place to shoot all the weapons at full bs, but if really needed - you can move 6' and fire one at full bs or even go 12' and fire all snapshots.
3. Havocs - it's generally considered best to use a 4 ac variant. Some nice damage output on paper but low mobility. Also, if someone shoots at them and kills a few - u're gona get a lower damage output and will have to pass ld. And they're not that hard to kill.

Don't know bout forgefiends and defilers - never seen them being good. 200 pts for a 12-12-10... I'd better go for a maulerfiend. Another fast mellee threat is usually better in an assaulty-oriented list.

A forgefiend is almost as expensive as three obliterators while the obliterators are more survivable, are more flexible and have a higher Bs.

Tried a 1k list with six Obliterators this weekend and it works very good. Thinking about adding another three for my 1500 list.

I have a similar list and problem. I think ok going to swap one baleflamer out for a hades, and hope that that and the oblits will manage the ranged requirements... (at.. least atI lowish points levels) I mean with that much assault, how many guns do you need?

Elgrun wrote:If your firing Phlegm Bombardment then you are firing the harvester cannon as snap shots since its ordnance right?

Yes of course. But consider that I plan to use Prescience on him, so 3 snap shots with a re-roll to hit have a decent chance to see at least one of them landing.
And of course the most of the damage will come from the S8 Large Blast (which, being re-rollable, usually will hit a good amount of enemies).

I also like the possibility to hit, in some circumstance, both some infantry and medium armored vehicle (rolling twice to penetrate armour). I just recently had a game against IG where I wished I could do that. Killing a hard-hitting vehicle while reducing the size of a damn IG blob is always interesting

Captyn_Bob wrote:I have a similar list and problem. I think ok going to swap one baleflamer out for a hades, and hope that that and the oblits will manage the ranged requirements... (at.. least atI lowish points levels) I mean with that much assault, how many guns do you need?

Don't do it. There are better way to kill light vehicles than an Heldrake. And the Baleflamer is way better in killing infantry than the hades autocannon..

Forgeworld Relic Predators can carry some nice gear, especially the executioner cannon or conversion beamer. Good bang for relatively cheap, and a nice alternative to standard dakka/las preds.

I'd prefer to stick to non-FW models, so as to have no problem whatsoever. I already have some other plans for FW models

Havocs with autocannons!

My noisemarines do fairly well, but I've been aching for some long-range AP2 lately. Seems obliterators are my only bet.

I will say that in the current meta a landraider isn't bad. With serpent spam, missile spam, etc. rolling around a landraider can actually be pretty resilient nowadays.

It's only two lascannons, though. Not a lot of bang for your buck, it's just some bang that sticks around. For the cost you can get two auto-las predators, which pump out more shots and are almost as durable.

I submit a seldom seen suggestion... The Skull Cannon.

It's a large blast at BS5 and Str 8 with ignores cover. These have been fantastic at clearing out Pathfinders, Venomthropes and troop units trying to drop in the dirt and survive to score late in the game.

The fact it also doles out assault grenades to anything that charges it's target is quite nice as well.

The fact its only a bit more than a 100 points is great in an army where you can easily cross the 300 point mark on your FMCs too.

You should take autocannon havocs. Potentially split the oblits into 2 squads of 2

Ehm... Noise Marines perhaps? I *always* field Noise Marines, and my god Blastmasters are brutal. Make sure you pick up the FAQ/Errata for the CSM codex, it improves the squad even more.

Then do IG allies with a Vendetta Gunship squadron. Because they're underpriced as crazy and deliver so much AP2 firepower.

I used to play a lot with Noise Marines, but I cannot find a way to add a Chaos Lord that truly satisfies me with the Mark of Slaanesh, I find the Nurgle Lord on Bike with PF and LC to be the best cost-efficient generic HQ out there.
I wish there were some Slaanesh/Emperor's Children supplement to take NM as troops, it would be a very interesting allied detachment.

I also found that when you play against a skilled opponent that maximizes the spacing between units, it's actually pretty hard to hit more than 1-2 models per shot. And I'm not sure that 30 pts are worth the investment if you only kill 1 or 2 SM per turn...

If the opponent spreads out, then you can just direct your shots at his vehicles and get them down.

Or, what I like to do, is start advancing forward. If you aren't going to get much done with it anyway while they're spread out, then don't sacrifice movement to do it.

I find, once you're more "in-range" of his own weapons, and especially if you kind of scoot towards the flanks, he will tend to bunch up in an effort to get more models into range for rapid-fire shots, etc. Or if you have assault units nearby to make sure he's getting in range to shoot but also backing off to avoid assault range... that's when you start controlling the board. He either bunches up to get in more shots or, spaced out, he doesn't get many shots.

Also, close combat. Units that can keep him locked in combat just to get the bunching up that it causes can be deadly.

There's also tank shocking, if you have any actual tanks, that can drive some models to be pressed against other models. Best with a landraider, should your shot go awry.

 Unholyllama wrote:
Personal Opinion - Forgefiend.

2 Hades Autocannons will give you 8 S8 AP4 shots at 48" range and that also have Pinning. That's enough shots to force some wounds onto terminators (and strong enough to double out Paladins) as well as sweep through some hordes. In addition, it provides the added benefit of the daemonforge special rule for when you go against vehicles (even flyers since there's enough shots). The ectoplasm cannon could help you against TEQ; however, I stay away from it since my dice like to roll 1s when I am using plasma-related weapons.

One trick a friend of mine uses with his Forgefiend is to bring a Tzeentch herald as allies (instead of the lord of change) and then cast Prescience onto the forgefiend. Rerolling to hit on 8 shots with that range and strength will force a LOT of wounds and almost a guarenteed wreck vehicle each turn.

I hate to be a party pooper but the Hades Autocannon are only 36" range...

I played a couple of games using them at 48" before realising my mistake.

Allied Riptide/Broadsides.

More Oblits.

Potentially Havocs but aren't very durable.

Not interested in allying with Tau, for many reasons:

1) Too easy
2) It would make much more sense to take Tau as Primary and CSM as Allies
3) Already decided to take Daemons as Allies

Have you thought about allies IG? Traitor guard can provide some fairly cheap long range artillery, tanks, vendettas etc. I know you seem set on daemons as allies but I think some guard can be fluffy and pack a punch too.

 Reanimator wrote:
Have you thought about allies IG? Traitor guard can provide some fairly cheap long range artillery, tanks, vendettas etc. I know you seem set on daemons as allies but I think some guard can be fluffy and pack a punch too.

Yes I did, but I do prefer to wait until the new codex comes out. I'd prefer NOT to spend money and time in buying, assembling and painting models that, once finished, do suck because some genius decided to release a crappy new codex...
I'll wait and see. It's one thing if you really love one army (for their bg, look and so on) and a new codex comes out, but starting a new one just for competitive purposes (I do not really like IG) a few months before a new release is not exactly "smart"

 Eldarain wrote:
I submit a seldom seen suggestion... The Skull Cannon.

It's a large blast at BS5 and Str 8 with ignores cover. These have been fantastic at clearing out Pathfinders, Venomthropes and troop units trying to drop in the dirt and survive to score late in the game.

The fact it also doles out assault grenades to anything that charges it's target is quite nice as well.

The fact its only a bit more than a 100 points is great in an army where you can easily cross the 300 point mark on your FMCs too.

I second this. Is it a very underrated unit. I haven't run one but I would probably even hold one in reserve so the enemy doesn't focus it down early and so it can come in and kill your enemy's last ditch scoring attempt. I've only seen it in a game once and it worked very well. They also pair very well with daemonettes who are probably the best "long range AP2" that CSM/Daemons can get for the points.