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Sadly this game (40k in general) has devolved into who has 2nd turn 9 times out of ten. It's especially evident in timed events where you know when the game ends.

There are 2 flyers and chapter tactics.

Sadly this game (40k in general) has devolved into who has 2nd turn 9 times out of ten.

I think it is an exaggeration. It is just that most of JY2 armies benefit more from being second. Especially Necrons thanks to their Night Scythes.
There are still armies that prefer/want to be first. Dark Eldar (Venom spam), Eldar (Jetseer Council against extremly shooty army that can wipe them/most of them before they can cast any spells), possbily Flying Circus (correct me if I'm wrong) and Tau since their troops aren't that mobile.

 Xaereth wrote:
Quick question Jim: why do you say Wraiths don't care about Grav guns? They do, after all, still have a 3+ armor save to go with their 3++.

Are you just saying the wounds he causes are essentially the same as boltguns which do the same damage, only on a 4+?

I don't care about grav-guns in that I still get my 3+ saves against them whereas most others are only getting 5+ or 4+ cover....or nothing at all. So to my wraiths, they are no more deadly than heavy bolter shots.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
I don't see how the matchup favours the Necrons; With Mnemonic Protocols the Red Hunters won't really have a problem demolishing your fliers. Wraiths still take a ton of wounds from Grav guns, and can't tie up the bikes because they just hit and run; There is no effective way to deal with the RH Chapter Master.

Trust me, he doesn't want them out in the open for me to shoot back, followed by my wraiths charging them. He'd rather have them stuck in combat. Only his talons are areal AA option.

As for his Chapter Master, I don't have any problems with beat stick characters thanks to Mindshackles.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Red Corsair wrote:
Sadly this game (40k in general) has devolved into who has 2nd turn 9 times out of ten. It's especially evident in timed events where you know when the game ends.

Not always true.

That's only the case for Necrons and Eldar. A lot of armies can still benefit from going 1st.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

macexor wrote:

Sadly this game (40k in general) has devolved into who has 2nd turn 9 times out of ten.

I think it is an exaggeration. It is just that most of JY2 armies benefit more from being second. Especially Necrons thanks to their Night Scythes.
There are still armies that prefer/want to be first. Dark Eldar (Venom spam), Eldar (Jetseer Council against extremly shooty army that can wipe them/most of them before they can cast any spells), possbily Flying Circus (correct me if I'm wrong) and Tau since their troops aren't that mobile.

Correct.

Don't forget Tyranids. They can really get hurt from alpha-strike armies before they get a chance to "power up".

 iGuy91 wrote:
This will be fun.
I think the Necrons still have a advantage. With only 1 flyer to protect them, the Necrons rule the skies, and control the objectives.

Wraiths don't mind grav guns so much, since they still GET a save against them. The immortals would cry, but then again, their STR 5 guns wil also make bikers sad.

As long as the TFCs are on the field, you need to spread out, but thats not hard with wraiths.

There are two fliers. Read the list. All the Red Hunter units can get Skyfire for a turn as well, and that's going to can the fliers.

The Necrons don't really have anything that can threaten the TFCs efficiently.

Wraiths against bikers is again a poor proposition, because they just hit and run after you charge them.

Great reports again sir! Thoroughly enjoy reading them. You come across as the ultimate professional - competitive, yet still get the spirit of the game.

Cannot wait for Game six.

What are the special rules for Red Scorpions that makes them so good? I've never played against them or seen them played so don't know why they are different to other space marines.

hivefleethannibal wrote:
What are the special rules for Red Scorpions that makes them so good? I've never played against them or seen them played so don't know why they are different to other space marines.

Yup Im curious too, i didnt play fw, not even once. What rules do they get?

In which book there are rules for red scorpions?

Check the FW chapter tactics pdf:
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/F/FWchaptertactics.pdf

Red Scorpions can upgrade any sergeant to an apothecary.

Sorry, guys, Photobucket is down for maintenance currently so I'm going to have to wait until it is back online to update Game #5.

 migsula wrote:
Great reports again sir! Thoroughly enjoy reading them. You come across as the ultimate professional - competitive, yet still get the spirit of the game.

Cannot wait for Game six.

Thanks! While I am a competitive player, I also do care that both of us (my opponent and I) can still have a fun and fair match. The key is respect. Respect your opponent and the game and you'll be ok.

hivefleethannibal wrote:
What are the special rules for Red Scorpions that makes them so good? I've never played against them or seen them played so don't know why they are different to other space marines.

 SwistakCZC wrote:

hivefleethannibal wrote:
What are the special rules for Red Scorpions that makes them so good? I've never played against them or seen them played so don't know why they are different to other space marines.

Yup Im curious too, i didnt play fw, not even once. What rules do they get?

In which book there are rules for red scorpions?

Red Hunters have Adamantium Will and once per game, they can give a number of their units (depending on which turn it is) 1 USR - Tank Hunters, Counter-Attack, Monster Hunters, Hatred, Skyfire or Interceptor.

Eric took it mainly to address his weakness against flyer-builds and in particular, double/triple-dragon Chaos builds.

Rules for all the FW space marine chapters are available on the FW site for free.

"Mostly Necrons and Eldar benefit from turn 2"


Yea, and pretty much 90+% of tournamwent lists are eldar in design or necrons. Marines do well but notice they always lose out to eldar, especially seer council.

I am not saying anyone can win going second with eldar or necrons but to try and act like the advantage isn't massive is disingenuous.

Most top players will even admit to the cheese created by this in a tournament. Basically you KNOW when the last turn is because it is a timed event, and its even easier when you consider slow playing tactics which DO exist. Having a unit that can reach anywhere on the table to objective grab and contest is the name of the game currently when you consider top play.

Your a good player, and going second up until now made your ascension a cruise. I won't spoil it, but I am sure your going 1st has a major impact on the outcome

Also, I am more impressed then anything by the amount of quality pictures you manage to snap during these, you must have a Necron designed point and click

 Red Corsair wrote:
"Mostly Necrons and Eldar benefit from turn 2"


Yea, and pretty much 90+% of tournamwent lists are eldar in design or necrons. Marines do well but notice they always lose out to eldar, especially seer council.

I am not saying anyone can win going second with eldar or necrons but to try and act like the advantage isn't massive is disingenuous.

Most top players will even admit to the cheese created by this in a tournament. Basically you KNOW when the last turn is because it is a timed event, and its even easier when you consider slow playing tactics which DO exist. Having a unit that can reach anywhere on the table to objective grab and contest is the name of the game currently when you consider top play.

Your a good player, and going second up until now made your ascension a cruise. I won't spoil it, but I am sure your going 1st has a major impact on the outcome

Also, I am more impressed then anything by the amount of quality pictures you manage to snap during these, you must have a Necron designed point and click

I notice how Tau have disappeared from the rhetoric after LVO... 90% eldar and necrons is a bit of hyberbole, surely? Marines don't always lose out to Eldar, it came down to a failed LD10 morale check for Eric Hoeger at LVO.

Necrons usually rely on the game not going to turn 6, as their exposed warrior squads are very squishy, Jetbikes are less so but still remain vulnerable.

Am I right in thinking that both JY2 and our very own Adam Tricoloa (Beast Star player) are in the same LVO and both very close to the finals? Will these two end up playing against each other, as I would love to see how that game goes. I mean that JY2 has a vehicular advantage as Adam has little anti air save for the anti everything Wave Serpents but with the right powers that big beast pack is virtually unassailable as it would rip through a Wraithstar if it got any powers such as prescience, fortune or misfortune.

JY2, how would you handle an army like Adams? I imagine the main idea would to be to shoot it, with even a 4++ with re-rolls isn't unkillable then take a multi assault with both wraith units. Also, not to sound defeatist, but which of your battle reports have you lost in? I would like to see how your opponent dealt with YOU.

Battle report completed on p.7.


Coming up next....Team We'll Be Back in the 40K Doubles Tournament.

 Red Corsair wrote:
"Mostly Necrons and Eldar benefit from turn 2"


Yea, and pretty much 90+% of tournamwent lists are eldar in design or necrons. Marines do well but notice they always lose out to eldar, especially seer council.

I am not saying anyone can win going second with eldar or necrons but to try and act like the advantage isn't massive is disingenuous.

Most top players will even admit to the cheese created by this in a tournament. Basically you KNOW when the last turn is because it is a timed event, and its even easier when you consider slow playing tactics which DO exist. Having a unit that can reach anywhere on the table to objective grab and contest is the name of the game currently when you consider top play.

Your a good player, and going second up until now made your ascension a cruise. I won't spoil it, but I am sure your going 1st has a major impact on the outcome

Also, I am more impressed then anything by the amount of quality pictures you manage to snap during these, you must have a Necron designed point and click

I admit that Eldar currently dominates the tournaments, but Necrons actually aren't as common as I would have thought, considering how strong they still are.

Yeah, mobility is a huge advantage. All the top-tier tournament armies have mobility of scoring units. To me, it isn't a luxury. It is a necessity for a top-tier army. If you don't, you are really playing at a disadvantage. However, the top armies only make up maybe 10-15% of the field in a typical tournament. The majority of the armies there aren't really armies that rely on a 2nd turn strategy.

But honestly, in my game against Eric, it wasn't because I went 1st why I lost. He thoroughly dominated my army throughout. Ditto with most of my other games. I didn't win those games because of the last turn objective-grab. I won them because I dominated my opponents as well (with the exception of my other battle against the White Scars).

 Asmodai Asmodean wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:
"Mostly Necrons and Eldar benefit from turn 2"


Yea, and pretty much 90+% of tournamwent lists are eldar in design or necrons. Marines do well but notice they always lose out to eldar, especially seer council.

I am not saying anyone can win going second with eldar or necrons but to try and act like the advantage isn't massive is disingenuous.

Most top players will even admit to the cheese created by this in a tournament. Basically you KNOW when the last turn is because it is a timed event, and its even easier when you consider slow playing tactics which DO exist. Having a unit that can reach anywhere on the table to objective grab and contest is the name of the game currently when you consider top play.

Your a good player, and going second up until now made your ascension a cruise. I won't spoil it, but I am sure your going 1st has a major impact on the outcome

Also, I am more impressed then anything by the amount of quality pictures you manage to snap during these, you must have a Necron designed point and click

I notice how Tau have disappeared from the rhetoric after LVO... 90% eldar and necrons is a bit of hyberbole, surely? Marines don't always lose out to Eldar, it came down to a failed LD10 morale check for Eric Hoeger at LVO.

Necrons usually rely on the game not going to turn 6, as their exposed warrior squads are very squishy, Jetbikes are less so but still remain vulnerable.

Tau performance have dropped mainly because of the shifting meta:

1. Beaststar/Seer Council builds. These are bad matchups for Tau to face. If Tau does not get a good alpha-strike against them, it is practically game over.

2. White Scars. Another potentially bad matchup for Tau, especially if they get the alpha-strike. Scouting bikes means that you can't really hide from them. Grav-guns means the death of riptides, broadsides and Ovesa-star builds. Well, maybe not "death", but potentially crippling the army.

Yeah, there's always a risk of exposing your "weak" troops, only to have the game go on. However, that can be mitigated by several factors in a tournament:

1. The strategical placement of objectives.

2. Your army has the potential to cripple your opponent's army to the point that they really can't do much to your troops anyways.

3. It is a timed event. Some players can and will take advantage of that. Other times, it may just be that players actually don't have enough time to complete their games, even when not deliberately "slow-playing".

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
Am I right in thinking that both JY2 and our very own Adam Tricoloa (Beast Star player) are in the same LVO and both very close to the finals? Will these two end up playing against each other, as I would love to see how that game goes. I mean that JY2 has a vehicular advantage as Adam has little anti air save for the anti everything Wave Serpents but with the right powers that big beast pack is virtually unassailable as it would rip through a Wraithstar if it got any powers such as prescience, fortune or misfortune.

JY2, how would you handle an army like Adams? I imagine the main idea would to be to shoot it, with even a 4++ with re-rolls isn't unkillable then take a multi assault with both wraith units. Also, not to sound defeatist, but which of your battle reports have you lost in? I would like to see how your opponent dealt with YOU.

Yeah, I was hoping to play either against Adam's Beaststar, Nick Rose's (Darkwynn) pure Eldar or Justin Cook's Ovesa-star. Heck I'd be happy to play all 3! But it just wasn't meant to be, at least not at this tournament.

I'll write up a Pre-Game Analysis later on as if I was going to play against Adam's Beaststar. It would have made for an awesome batrep here on dakka had we faced each other.

This is Chuck, and I actually lost to Eric in round 3, the last game of Friday, not round 4.

I should have beaten him too, as even though I was going first, I had the hot dice. I just managed to make several boneheaded mistakes on the last turn, which gave him an opening to pull off a win. To his credit, he played excellently and did exactly what was necessary to win, even though at the end of the game he had 2 Techmarines, 1 Thunderfire Cannon, and 1 lone Bike alive against probably 60% of my army.

It was good to see him make it all the way to the finals though, even if he didn't end up winning it all. 4-1 losing to the runner up is nothing to sneeze at.

Plus getting to bust out nasty Wraithwing in the Doubles tournament was a bunch of fun, so I can't complain too much.

Hi that is why in this match up i always go necrons with chaos space marines allies,the buring brand and the heldrakes jsut kills them in droves,i play that list a few times,i just kill so many of his bikers,he has no chance.if white scars brings list like this ,you bring heldraks and stuff like that.

Wow wasn't expecting such a whitewash but this game seemed pretty one-sided throughout. You never really recovered from that poor round of combat. In every other game your wraiths have owned once they got into combat, what happened?

Thanks for posting these, they are really well done and very interesting, making up for the shambles that is WD and WV.

Yea bikers can be tough. I had a game against a tough white scars army at the renegade GT. The trick in my game is I never assaulted them. I had weight of dice from shooting and I used it religiously. In the end I think I killed off all but 3 bikes. I know you wanna get your wraiths in there but use the barges a little more. Keep them at their maximum range. I keep mine about 21-24 away from their desired targets depending how stretched out the unit they are shooting at is. Honestly didnt see you losing this one going first or second. White scars are tough but your army wounds them on a 2+ and that just makes them expensive marines.

Great performance Jim you saw me believing in you there at the LVO by giving you lots of moral support. I think this tournament gave you great experience against White Scars as you said it yourself you had never really played them before till now. It is a good thing that White Scars are doing so well as I feel all those die hard White Scars fans from long ago can now enjoy having a great army.

As always, a joy to read and follow your reports and progress through the tournament. Thanks for taking the time to do the reports!

Just a preview of things to come:


The Doubles tournament - Team We'll Be Back with Jim "Jy2" Yeh and Chuck "TehCheator" Pierce:











Then I have a game with my Tyranids against John "Zeztuku's" LVO White Scars!








Both coming soon!

Any game that ends because of time is a tainted win at best. In 7th there are to many ways to stall the game and make sure the game ends when you want.

Ive great time while reading your reports, its nice that ive encountered one of your topics, Im gonna read them regularly.

Anyway you wrote that you feel like you didnt make any mistake, I think that you could prevent losing 2 of your barges, especially the one shot by stormtalon at its rear armour. Those are 2 points due to big guns and maybe those barges could shoot at some more bikers or take objective (not sure of ths because I dont remember well situation on a table). Its sad that game #5 was so unlucky for you! :(

DarthDiggler wrote:
Any game that ends because of time is a tainted win at best. In 7th there are to many ways to stall the game and make sure the game ends when you want.

So what is your proposal for tournaments?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Regarding the barges, I don't believe they could have been saved. Just too many units outflanking.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
Am I right in thinking that both JY2 and our very own Adam Tricoloa (Beast Star player) are in the same LVO and both very close to the finals? Will these two end up playing against each other, as I would love to see how that game goes. I mean that JY2 has a vehicular advantage as Adam has little anti air save for the anti everything Wave Serpents but with the right powers that big beast pack is virtually unassailable as it would rip through a Wraithstar if it got any powers such as prescience, fortune or misfortune.

JY2, how would you handle an army like Adams? I imagine the main idea would to be to shoot it, with even a 4++ with re-rolls isn't unkillable then take a multi assault with both wraith units. Also, not to sound defeatist, but which of your battle reports have you lost in? I would like to see how your opponent dealt with YOU.

This would have been my thoughts on our game had we (Adam and I) played each other.


Pre-Game Analysis

I've played against the Beaststar once in 6th Ed. (with the new Eldar codex) with my Necrons:

Game #1 vs Douglas' Dark Eldar + Eldar

I've also played against them numerous times back in Pre-Newdar era. I've never really had a problem with them back then. The game against Douglas was much more difficult because he wouldn't fail his saves, but I have confidence that my Necrons can take on the Beaststar DE. Why?

1. I'm experienced enough to know to ignore the beaststar for the most part and to go after his supporting units instead. That's how you play and beat deathstar builds....by going after the support units.

2. Night scythes are experts at picking apart those jetbike troops. None in all my games have survived their wrath.

3. Wraithknights hate Mindshackles. I have killed every single WK I have gone up against with my necrons.

4. Wraiths will make a mockery out of the beastpacks, doubling out even the 5W guys. Re-rollable 4+ is not nearly as bad as the re-rollable 2+/4+ of the seer council.

5. Even with dual-farseers, Fortune is not a guaranteed. If my opponent gets Fortune, it will be a tough battle for me. If not, he's got a big hill to climb.

6. The lack of Anti-air firepower in his army. The game is won by my troops in flyers, not by my wraiths on the ground (though they cannot be ignored also).

7. My mobility is just as good, maybe arguably even more superior to that of my opponent.

8. I've got no soft targets on the ground. Even if the beastpack Hit-&-Runs out of combat, there will be no target for them to go after besides my wraiths or annihilation barges, either of which I don't really care if he charges. And if he charges 1 unit of wraiths, I've got 2 more waiting to counter-assault.

9. I have a lot more experience playing against beaststar builds than I do playing against, say, White Scars. They won't catch me unprepared for their tricks.

10. His army is dependent on his psychic powers. Get the right ones and it'll be a tough, tough game for me. But there's just as good of a chance for him not to get the right ones. I usually go into these games prepared to face a Fortuned beaststar, but if he doesn't get it, then that's a bonus for me!

TehCheator wrote:
This is Chuck, and I actually lost to Eric in round 3, the last game of Friday, not round 4.

I should have beaten him too, as even though I was going first, I had the hot dice. I just managed to make several boneheaded mistakes on the last turn, which gave him an opening to pull off a win. To his credit, he played excellently and did exactly what was necessary to win, even though at the end of the game he had 2 Techmarines, 1 Thunderfire Cannon, and 1 lone Bike alive against probably 60% of my army.

It was good to see him make it all the way to the finals though, even if he didn't end up winning it all. 4-1 losing to the runner up is nothing to sneeze at.

Plus getting to bust out nasty Wraithwing in the Doubles tournament was a bunch of fun, so I can't complain too much.

Thanks for being my partner at the LVO. We had a great run there, didn't we?

Man, if only you could have beaten my roommate, I could have played against someone else and maybe even advance to Day #3. Oh well....them's da breaks.

But I'm happy for him. Makes our losing a lot easier to swallow to say that we both lost to the Runner-Up of the tournament.

 patrickekirby wrote:
Hi that is why in this match up i always go necrons with chaos space marines allies,the buring brand and the heldrakes jsut kills them in droves,i play that list a few times,i just kill so many of his bikers,he has no chance.if white scars brings list like this ,you bring heldraks and stuff like that.

The main reason why I don't normally run allies, especially with my necrons, is because I am a purist. With a few exceptions, I prefer to play mono-armies. Necrons are good enough to win such that I don't need to bring allies with them. I would only do so for more "flavor" - to add some variety to my armies - than to be competitive.

 tyrannosaurus wrote:
Wow wasn't expecting such a whitewash but this game seemed pretty one-sided throughout. You never really recovered from that poor round of combat. In every other game your wraiths have owned once they got into combat, what happened?

Thanks for posting these, they are really well done and very interesting, making up for the shambles that is WD and WV.

The dice caught up to me. I've been having pretty good luck in all my tournaments. It's about time that something like this happened.

 Tomb King wrote:
Yea bikers can be tough. I had a game against a tough white scars army at the renegade GT. The trick in my game is I never assaulted them. I had weight of dice from shooting and I used it religiously. In the end I think I killed off all but 3 bikes. I know you wanna get your wraiths in there but use the barges a little more. Keep them at their maximum range. I keep mine about 21-24 away from their desired targets depending how stretched out the unit they are shooting at is. Honestly didnt see you losing this one going first or second. White scars are tough but your army wounds them on a 2+ and that just makes them expensive marines.

That was due to my relative inexperience against bikers. I don't play them that often, at least not the new White Scars. Unlike other people, my natural instincts is to play aggressively, even when I am not familiar with an army, whereas other people would probably tend to play more conservatively (i.e. Game #2 against Lyzz's Daemons).

But don't worry, I learn from my games.

 y0disisray wrote:
Great performance Jim you saw me believing in you there at the LVO by giving you lots of moral support. I think this tournament gave you great experience against White Scars as you said it yourself you had never really played them before till now. It is a good thing that White Scars are doing so well as I feel all those die hard White Scars fans from long ago can now enjoy having a great army.

Thanks!

Yeah, they deserve their time in the sun. For a long time, Space Marines have always been considered mediocre/mid-tier. I'm happy they are getting some of the spotlight now. Anything that takes away from the domination of Tau/Eldar in tournaments is a good thing.

 Lord Arturius wrote:
As always, a joy to read and follow your reports and progress through the tournament. Thanks for taking the time to do the reports!

You're welcome!

There isn't much that can be done unfrotunately. If you increase the times or allow players the time to reach a natural conclusion every game then people will slow play. This will make a tournament go on for like 10-12 hours which is far too much. Honestly when I played at the LVO all of my games reached at least turn 5 which is all I can ask for.

DarthDiggler wrote:
Any game that ends because of time is a tainted win at best. In 7th there are to many ways to stall the game and make sure the game ends when you want.

I strongly disagree with your statement.

In almost all competitive settings, there are time restrictions/limits. For example, in basketball, not only is there a time clock, but there is also a shot clock as well. You only get so much time with the ball before you have to shoot (which would be 24-seconds for the NBA). It is a common tactic for teams to "milk the clock" and hold the ball for 23 seconds before shooting it to try to minimize the time the opponent has with the ball. Would you consider this tainted as well? Same with Football and other sports as well. Even competitive Chess is a timed event as well. Would you consider that tainted as well if you didn't get a chance to fully think out your moves because of time? You had better plan for your opponent possibly delaying the game, whether deliberately or not. Now I understand you don't like that, but if you want to play competitively in a tournament environment, then it's something you have to get used to and plan for as well, whether you are playing against Mr scumbag asshat or a newbie playing a horde army in his very first tournament.

 jy2 wrote:

DarthDiggler wrote:
Any game that ends because of time is a tainted win at best. In 7th there are to many ways to stall the game and make sure the game ends when you want.

I strongly disagree with your statement.

In almost all competitive settings, there are time restrictions/limits. For example, in basketball, not only is there a time clock, but there is also a shot clock as well. You only get so much time with the ball before you have to shoot (which would be 24-seconds for the NBA). It is a common tactic for teams to "milk the clock" and hold the ball for 23 seconds before shooting it to try to minimize the time the opponent has with the ball. Would you consider this tainted as well? Same with Football and other sports as well. Even competitive Chess is a timed event as well. Would you consider that tainted as well if you didn't get a chance to fully think out your moves because of time? You had better plan for your opponent possibly delaying the game, whether deliberately or not. Now I understand you don't like that, but if you want to play competitively in a tournament environment, then it's something you have to get used to and plan for as well, whether you are playing against Mr scumbag asshat or a newbie playing a horde army in his very first tournament.

Sorry but all your analogies fall flat on their face. In basketball and football either team can stop the clock during the game whether it's timeouts, free throw fouls, or taking the play out of bounds. Neither player can stop the clock in 40k. In basketball many points are scored without the clock running at all for foul shots. Basketball also does not allow much stalling because there is a shotclock. In football the offense can run a play to the sidelines and have the clock stopped or throw an incomplete pass to stop the clock. Stalling is frowned upon in football with a delay of game penalty. How about one of those in 40k. In chess the clock only runs on your opponents turn which does not happen in 40k. There are plenty of other sports where their is no clock, like baseball.

No I'm sorry but the meta within the meta is game stalling. The person who goes second does it and the person who goes first dreads it. .

Put a chess clock on these same players. The clock runs during their move phase and stops for shooting and close combat. You will see them finish games. The true winner of the game can be manipulated by the manipulation of the clock.

Last two rounds of a tourney all games that have a bearing on overall finish to completion. It's not like you guys didn't have the time at the LVO

I just watched a tourney game online. Stalling or not I saw a move where the Eldar player measured his move with 3 Jetbikes. Measured the distance they would be from Centurions, measure the move again. Shuffle a clipboard from one open space to another. Measure the distance from the centurions again. Shuffle the clipboard back. Move the first Jetbike. Measure it to the centurions, move the clipboard, shuffle that one Jetbike and measure it to a Thunderfire cannon, shuffle it again, measure it to the centurions again, shuffle the clipboard and then move the other two Jetbikes in the unit, finally measuring to the centurions for the last time.

That was one move. There were more move to make after that. I ran the Adepticon gladiator for a few years and saw all kinds of stalling going on over and over again. The most egregious example happened in the finals one year. I said right there this game would go to completion no matter the time. The stalling player finished the game in half an hour after that.