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Question for you gentlepersons. I am a seasoned 40k guy and I'm looking to get into fantasy. I have a few buddies who play who are pimping me hard to get into it. So get to the question already right? Is a all Khorne army viable. I read yes and no. I have the codex and the WFB brb. I have a grasp of the rules but I am unsure how viable it is. I'm not looking to tourney play but I also don't want to field crap. I hate all the other daemon sculpts hence the one god selection. I also wouldn't be doing the "Blood for the Blood god" hogwash. Sorry that fluff doesn't excite me. I have my own backstory I am working on and it will be a all "ice themed" Khorne army. Blue and white models with ice/snow bases. Anyways I digress.
I just want to know if its playable and decent. It seems like it should be ok but I want some opinions as I have exactly ZERO battles under my belt. Fire away gents. Let me know what you think.

As of now, I'd say not so much. At your local gaming store at low points, I think you could rape face. Or face rape. Or do bad things to faces. But magic is a huge part of WHFB and Khorne's anti-magic isn't anything like Dwarf anti-magic.

There also aren't a LOT of units for a single god. Any god. So you may get bored. You're going to use bloodletters, cannons, crushers and maybe soulgrinder and maybe daemon prince and maybe bloodthirster and some kind of heralds.

So anyway, at low points for fun, sure, they're fine. Just not vs. high elves using a specific banner. But no daemons are.

Khorne's problem is that his two main units, namely Bloodletters & Bloodcrushers are insanely overcosted for what you get...

'Letters for example are the hands down worst Core choice in the book.
With only a single S4 attack and no access to the Razor Banner, you simply can't deal with high armour saves outside of lucky Killing Blows (an overrated & situational rule in all honesty), while the T3/5++ means you really can't grind it out in prolonged fights as you're paying through the nose on these guys!
The general wisdom when using 'Letters is to 'go big or go home' with them, and pack at least 30 per unit. 40-50 is ideal as it gives you the bodies you need to weather your opponent's shooting & magic, while still leaving enough left to grind it out for a couple rounds vs. non-Elf infantry. (any kind of elven infantry should honestly be avoided like the plague, because their ASF + Martial/Murderous Prowess rules will you over pretty hard)

'Crushers are simply the game's worst Monstrous Cavalry, at least when looking at the fighty ones. (Lizzies Terradon's are the worst in combat, but then, Terradons aren't meant to be a strait-up facebeater unit like the poor Bloodcrushers are meant to be!)
For 65pts a pop, you get only a 4+ save, which is laughable considering even freaking Tomb Kings, the guys who are all about being lightly armoured, have a better save on their Monstrous Cav!
Add to this the same innate problems that Bloodletters suffer from, (situational bonuses, average S/T, lack of attacks), and you get a unit that clearly will never work as it's intended to...
Units of 3-4 work okay'ish as flank hitters, but due to the way their supporting attacks work, their lack of protection and stupidly high pts cost you never really want to take more than 4 per unit.

The other problems Khornes faces tends to be:
1. Complete lack of a Magic Phase.
Basically, going pure Khorne means you're giving up on an entire phase of the game. And in Fantasy, magic plays a much, much bigger role than 40k's psychic powers. Plus, you're still subject to the Reign of Comedy table, of which Khorne takes the biggest groin-shot when things go bad.
While you don't honestly need a Lv4 of your own to be competitive, going magic-free means you'll have to really learn how to play a magic mitigation game, which Daemons are already below average at to begin with.
On the other hand, your MR1 means that Direct Damage & Magic Missile spells aren't quite as deadly since you'll get a 4++ sav vs. them. Really handy vs. spells like Death snipes which can otherwise pick characters out of units.
Where you'll really end up hurting is if you come up against any opponent who loves to spam Augments/Hexes as they can simply have fun bleeding you out of Dispel dice and either buff their own units and/or nuke the stats of your units.

2. Your Heralds suck.
Again, Khorne gets the short end of the stick... Bloodletters & 'Crushers really require their Heralds to help them preform by given them rules like Hatred or Frenzy. Only, these guys cost the equivalent of what WoC are paying and get gak-all in the way of protection beyond your basic 5++. Being an unarmoured, T4/W2 character is pretty awful in Fantasy, since your characters generally end up taking a lot more incoming attacks than in 40k. (as anyone in base-to-base + those supporting them can choose to freely target your character)
Add to this how laughably over-costed Khorne's Locii abilities are, and you end up with game's worst characters in terms of cost effectiveness.

3. Reign of Comedy.
Goes without saying this is hell for every Daemon player as the bad results are always far worse for us than the good results. But Khorne also gets nailed by the most damaging god-specific storm as well with The Dark Prince Thirsts.
Taking a 3D6 - Ld test on things like your Skullcannons is not fun as when it happens it's typically enough damage to cripple/nuke them.


Khorne does have some decent stuff though;
1. Bloodthirster
Give him a pair of Lesser Gifts and go smash face. He really doesn't need much beyond that as he gets far less utility out of the Exalted Gifts/Hellforged Artifacts than the other Greaters do.

2. Flesh Hounds can be given the Ambusher upgrade and thus turn them into solid backfield harassers, while also keeping them relatively safe from Reign of Comedy table shenanigans.
The only drawback is they won't see combat until at least Turn 3... Still, they're solid for cleaning up things like units of archers and/or getting off flank/rear charges in support of your main combat hitters.

3. Furies w/Mark of Khorne.
Probably the best mark overall on these guys as they should always be charging due to their speed, and S5 chaff is something pretty much no one else gets access to!

4. Skullcannon is hilariously undercosted.
Field one of these and people will grumble. Field two of them, even in a pure Khorne army, and people will still likely scream 'uber cheese.
Just ignore the whiners... Any half-competent player knows how to deal with these, and they're also necessity for dealing with things like enemy monsters/steam tanks/monstrous infantry or cav deathstars/dragon-riding lords, etc... Especially in a pure Khorne army where you won't have any Magic phase to tackle these problems!



Overall Khorne is lumped with Tzeentch in being the neglected children of this book.
You can win sure, but you'll have a much steeper learning curve and can tend to require your opponent to police themselves more and not bring a top competitive list of their own...

That said, Dark & High Elves especially will simply smash you, and WoC can be really awful to face as well if they bring too many of their better options.

Wow thanks. Here I thought I got it and it wouldn't be that terrible. Geez guess not. This is why I asked though. Reading the BRB and the codex only take me so far. I realized the Tzeentch and Nurgle stuff was better but I hated the models.
I was also looking at Beastmen originally but after reading that codex I saw something was amiss maybe I should revisit that because their magic didn't seem bad with a Herdstone. The T3 no armor save really turned me off to the core units of that army.
Frick back to the drawing board. I really wanted to play monsters. I play eldar in 40k so I wanted to play a non finesse tough army.Almost a SM of WFB if you will. Hmm I'll have to keep looking.

Warriors of Chaos can muster a pretty solid "Monster" list. They are the epitome of "non finesse, tough army" and don't NEED magic to succeed, though it helps.

But as far as Daemons of Chaos are concerned... take what Experiment626 says with a grain of salt... He has VERY strong opinions about DoC. Some might be valid, but from experience I can say he is a little out spoken about the problems of the army.

Beastmen also have T4 on their core troops (Gors), but their monsters leave A LOT to imagine (poor abilities/ rules when compared with their costs)

Good luck

Pervertdhermit wrote:
take what Experiment626 says with a grain of salt

^this. I think most people who have been on the forums a while ignore her when it comes to DoC. Because she posts poo. I didn't read her post, because...well, what I just said. But she tends to make every theoretical scenario the worst possible for Doc.

The only time you see her run away is when people post about actual tourney results and DoC kicked ass. Which is pretty much all the majors I've seen (though I haven't looked in months).

Honestly I'm finding it to be less of what faction you take and more what units you take.

I think I field skaven too elite and often without the hard hitting units and I suffer for it because you need a gak ton of slaves to do anything. I'm trying a list with no stormvermin and just some hard hitters with low points slaves and some clanrats for weapons teams along with some rat ogres and rares. I'm going to see how it goes.

-----------

More on topic daemons are ridiculously good but more so with mono-nurgle. Beasts of nurgle make people cry and epidemius going around on the field buffing his units is just painful.

For khorne I'm not sure how khorne would do. Would you throw in casters with lores in there or is this pure khorne?

I haven't fought daemons much with the current army outside of mono-nurgle or 'The List' for daemons. Maybe that's a statement itself.

Also don't listen to 'experiment 626'. Every time I hear that person they whine about their daemons. Meanwhile other factions like beastmen could probably actually use something and even in the hands of a skilled player any faction can be decent. Like I said before it's more about what you take in your list and how you play it against what you face. Magic though is pretty terrible (overly powerful or weak). 8th edition magic needs to be fixed I think. It's way too unstable and inconsistent and will either do nothing or do everything and it blesses/curses different players differently.

Honestly, you might want to go to the Daemonic Legion forums as you'll get real advice there and not Dakka's constant "lolz Daemons are still broken" and "you have 2 lists that rock tournaments so your book is amazing" crap.

Yes Daemons are still filthy good in tournament play because Nurgle is amazing across the board and only fears P.Sun, Slaanesh has the game's most broken spell, Horrors can be gamed something fierce, Khannons are about 40-50pts undercosted and Soul Grinders & paired Burny Chariots are solid shooters.
That doesn't automatically mean our book is some pinnacle of perfection, but around here where tournaments are the only games that seem to matter, it means anyone who has a different opinion is automatically a whiny noob who simply needs to learn to play.

I personally hate our current book because it's overall quality is gak compared to all the other 8th ed books, the mechanics may be really cool but are horribly implemented and the internal balance is so bad it literally makes the choice for you.
We still have to use it and it is possible to make things work, but the army can get very boring rather quickly because unlike the other updated books, there simply isn't much room for experimentation.

Well the point about being board with army builds is well placed. I didn't stop to think about only having 7 units for a mono build army. That would drive me crazy. I play 3 styles of Eldar (Biel-Tan, Iyanden, Skimmer) now depending my fancy. That's why I like them.
I just hate the Nurgle and Tzeentch sculpts the Slaneesh aren't bad but obviously that doesn't work.
So what's my other options for tough with lots of monsters? My buddy plays VC and I love those sculpts. I would play them if he didn't. I have seen the OK models and I don't care for them too. If I have to sacrifice toughness so be it. I'd really like to field monsters though. It takes me back to my D&D, L5R, Palladium roots. Monsters make for fun fights.

Have a look into the Lizardmen range. They can do monster lists as well as anyone and have a fantastic range of miniatures. Plus they got a new book mid-2013, so aren't due for an update anytime soon.

As for Experiment 626... He isn't wrong in his assessment of the Daemons book. He certainly pushes the envelope a little to the extent of being a bit of a doomsayer, however compaired to the other 8th books there are a lot of really cool, yet really poorly implemented mechanics in the DoC book. The gifts tables in particular are somewhat baffling, reign of chaos varies from a minor hindrance to potentially really game changing and some units are poorly costed.

In competitive settings a lot of the choices really fall away in comparison to others, which definitely is the hallmark of a poorly balanced book. However in casual-semi competitive environments there is absolutely nothing broken (for better or worse) about Daemons of Chaos.

You can use counts-as models. Or make your own.

WoC has kind of cornered the market on monsters and monstrous infantry/cavalry. Some are good, some aren't. But they got trolls, ogres, chimeras, dragons, dragon gores, shaggoths, manticores, hellcannons, mutaliths, brute-things. etc. And daemon princes which are better than DoC's and potentially one of the most evil units in the game.

It is a bit sad, but WoC trump DoC when it comes to fielding freaky mutant creatures/ monsters.

I play a monster mash for WoC and many other people do as well. It is good fun!

Well sounds like I need to buy this WoC codex. I hear they are a pretty solid army. Kinda sad they have more monster options and sound like what I want vs DoC.

 lobbywatson wrote:
Well sounds like I need to buy this WoC codex. I hear they are a pretty solid army. Kinda sad they have more monster options and sound like what I want vs DoC.

Keep your Daemons handy and use 'em in 40k for now, eventually we'll get a real book and hopefully the third attempt will actually result in a decent product. (ie: GW can start by locking Ward in an airless vault, since he's fethed the job up pretty badly twice now!)


Warriors can actually do a 100% all-monster army if that's your thing.
The special character Throgg the Troll King makes Trolls into a Core choice, meaning you can run a big block of them + doggies/Forsaken for Core, then filling out with things like Ogres, Chimeras, Dragon Ogres, Shaggoth, Spawns, Chaos Giant, etc...
You even have a Lv4 wizard option thanks to Galrauch and/or the Daemon Prince!

Going 100% pure monster mash would give you:

Lords:
Galrauch, the First Chaos Dragon
Daemon Prince

Heroes:
Throgg the Troll King
Scyla Anfingrimm

Core:
Trolls
Forsaken* (they're 'monstrous' in the sense that they're overly mutated mortals who are well along the path to spawnhood)
Chaos Hounds

Special:
Chaos Ogres
Chimera
Dragon Ogres
Chaos Warshrine* (okay, not exactly enitely monstrous due to the priest dude, but it's still mostly monstrous!)

Rare:
Chaos Giant
Chaos Spawn
Dragon Ogre Shaggoth
Hellcannon* (well, it's a daemonic monster)


Would be a really interesting looking army, and still has some decent room for variation thanks to marks, magic items/gifts, and unit upgrade options...

And hopefully within a little over a year when 9th rolls out, you can ally in some Daemons while waiting for a proper book to come out. (though Tomb Kings & Beastmen should ideally be first, after the almost certain Orc & Goblin book which will likely be first.)
Though when looking at what sells AND what's needed, DoC should hopefully squeeze into the first 5 or so books *IF* Wood Elves/Brets/Skaven get their books before 9th's release.

Well after re reading the codex. I think I can make it work. It wont win anything competitive but it'll be fun. Really the only issue I'm seeing is the limited number of units I'll have to choose from. It is what it is. I can't choke the idea of a ice demon/devil army. Those Khorne daemon sculpts will look perfect in white/ice blue.

Its fair to say That 626 has several points it is just she ahs felt screwed so long she gets a bit agitated.

BUt she has some points Khorne on his own will have some problems in this enviroment, But in a friendly enviroment they can be fun just not in a hardcore tournament enviroment.

I play Mono Khorne DoC and WoC and ignoring the obvious internal balance issues for the DoC book, if i were you i would start WoC simply bc it has much more unit variety. Monster mash, infantry army, cavalry army, all chariot army, you name it they can probably field it.

And i can honestly say after having gotten in several games with both books under my belt (and i play in a semi competitive environment), i can honestly say i enjoy playing WoC more simply because there is just sooo much crap you have to keep track off with DoC and half the time i forget. Wayyyy too much randomness.

So I'm going to bail on the Ice Demon idea simply because I'll only have like 7 unit choices total. I'm going to go with Beastmen. I really liked the sculpts and it feels monterish. I know they are not very good. I have read the interwebz. That's not as big a concern though. I have alot of ways I can play them which will keep me from getting bored.
Thanks for everyone's input. It really helped me figure this out. Now just to keep my fingers crossed that Beastmen don't get squatted!!

So I got a great deal on a large Beastman army from Bartertown.
80+gors
40 ungors
20+ ungor raiders
3 razorgors
10 harpies
6 Minotaurs
50+ bestigors
2 beastlords and 3 shaman

So its a perfect core army. Got all core I'll ever need and a good bit of special. I was thinking all I'd need to finish it would be the following.Any help is appreciated.
Doombull
3-6 minotaurs
3 razorgors
Ghorgon

Razorgors are a yes. An interesting stand in for them is Thunder wolves.

Ghorgon- Cool But I would save him for last as he is a cool and fun model to build an paint.

For the Minos. I would get 2 boxes and convert 1 or two to be doom bulls.

Question about converting the Mino's into Doombulls. Why convert? Would I be better off to have 9-12 Mino and then 1-2 doombullls?
Thanks for the tip on the razorgors. Those are the only models of the range I hate. Hideous sculpts.
I have read the Ghorgon is overpriced but is it still good? I just really like the model.

 lobbywatson wrote:
Question about converting the Mino's into Doombulls. Why convert? Would I be better off to have 9-12 Mino and then 1-2 doombullls?
Thanks for the tip on the razorgors. Those are the only models of the range I hate. Hideous sculpts.
I have read the Ghorgon is overpriced but is it still good? I just really like the model.

No the Ghorgon is not technically good but it is cool as hell.

YOu convert Minos into doombulls to save 33.50 a model. plus you can always use them as a minotaur.

 lobbywatson wrote:
So I got a great deal on a large Beastman army from Bartertown.
80+gors
40 ungors
20+ ungor raiders
3 razorgors
10 harpies
6 Minotaurs
50+ bestigors
2 beastlords and 3 shaman

So its a perfect core army. Got all core I'll ever need and a good bit of special. I was thinking all I'd need to finish it would be the following.Any help is appreciated.
Doombull
3-6 minotaurs
3 razorgors
Ghorgon

You've got more than enough there that you'll ever be able to run in one army. Another Box of Minotaurs and a Doombull/Gorebul (or two) could be a useful purchase to give you the option of a minotaur themed list, but other than that, you really don't need to spend anything else.

Don't bother with the extra Razorgors. Whilst Razorgors are fantastic, they should only ever be run solo, limiting you to three per army (except in a grand army, I suppose), hence you don't need to buy any more. And a Ghorgon is not a good unit, and, in fact, neither is any of the Beastmen's Rare choices. They are cool models, but if you're looking to be half-way competitive, literally just forget the Rare section exists.

Bummer I totally dig that model to. I'd really like to be able to run a heavy minotaur list. At 65 points per though it looks like I can only run about 10-12 realistically in a 2500 point game. I would doubt I'd ever play higher then 2500-3000.
I am also well aware beast men are not "competitive" that's ok though I like the sculpts.
I'm kind of torn on using lore of beasts or lore of death. Most armies I'm guessing I'll run a doombull, wargor (BSB) and two shamans.
I know the beastlord is probably better HQ then the Doombull but man I can kit that DB out into a death machine.
So how viable is a minotaur themed army? Can I get away with 2 shaman or do I need 3?

First off welcome to Beastmen. Secondly I HIGHLY suggest you head on over to the Herdstone for specific Beastmen questions and answers, just google Herdstone forums.

Now on to the other parts.

1- Thunderwolf cav models make GREAT Razorgors. And tge Fersian wolves make great Tuskgors. My sugestion for what you should get in regards to thes is 6 Razorgors, use 3 for chariots and 3 for solo. I have also been as of late been thinking of running 2 solo Razorgors and one Razorgor Herd of 4-6. You wil be surprised by it.

2- Doombulls can be made out of the Mino box but honestly the GW sculpt is amazing so I would just pick one up. Either in store, BTown or Ebay.

3- Beastmen LOVE and need the support of magic but you can get away with 2 level 2's at the expense of 2 Doombulls and one Gorebull BSB. If you do this the two Items you must have on your Lv2's is Dispell Scroll and Chalice of Dark Rain.

4- Ghorgons are not very competative but in the right list they will perform. My current ETC list has 2 of them...

Sample 2500 list:

DB- Axes of Korgor, Tal of Pres, The Other Tricksters Shard, HA
DB- Ramhorn Helm, Sword of Swift Slaying, HA, Shield, Gnarheld Hide, Dawnstone, Iron curse Icon

Wargor BSB- HA, Shield, The Beast Banner
Lv2- Scroll, lore of Beasts
Lv2- Chalice, lore of Beasts
Gorebull- Armor of Destiny, GW

45 x Gor, AHW, FC
4 x 5 man Ungor Raiders

7 x Minos, Champ, Musician, (maybe) std bearer, champ with Stone of Spite, Blackened Plate, or Gold Sigil Sword

3 x solo razorgors

The should clock around the 2500 or 2600 so some workings of the points will be in order.

Good Luck

How are you running 6 L&H choices in 2500 I thought you could only have 1L and 3 H? Legit question there.
Also has anyone had luck with running a heavy Minotaur army? I see bestigors are pretty solid in 30-40 man chunks. They seem hard to leave out. Damn shame about those Ghorgons. I love that sculpt.

 lobbywatson wrote:
How are you running 6 L&H choices in 2500 I thought you could only have 1L and 3 H? Legit question there.
Also has anyone had luck with running a heavy Minotaur army? I see bestigors are pretty solid in 30-40 man chunks. They seem hard to leave out. Damn shame about those Ghorgons. I love that sculpt.

The Beastmen book was released only 5 months prior to the drop of 8th edition, and thus still includes the old 7th edition rules for army composition limits.

Just ignore that entire chart completely, as you use the 8th ed BRB chart that gives each section a maximum % on top of a few added rules concerning how many duplicate Special/Rare units you can include.

My fault. I am awaiting the arrival of my WFB BRB. I hope the Island of Blood Rulebook is like the 40k Dark Vengeance one. It has all the rules and none of the fluff basically. If not I guess I'm out 25 bones.
Anyways so Ungors seem pretty pointless. Am I wrong here? The raiders have a very practical use but the normal.Ungors baffle me. Is there any reason to take them?

 lobbywatson wrote:
My fault. I am awaiting the arrival of my WFB BRB. I hope the Island of Blood Rulebook is like the 40k Dark Vengeance one. It has all the rules and none of the fluff basically. If not I guess I'm out 25 bones.
Anyways so Ungors seem pretty pointless. Am I wrong here? The raiders have a very practical use but the normal.Ungors baffle me. Is there any reason to take them?

While spears are pretty much the single worst weapon upgrade in the game right now, 'sword & board' versions are a cheap way to build what's known as an 'infantry bus' aka: a unit with lots of ranks! You can use a unit of 30-35 Ungors ranked 5-wide to provide the ranks needed to keep your side Steadfast in a combat, while also limiting your actual fighting frontage meaning you'll take slightly fewer attacks in return.
It's not considered optimal at all by competitive players, but they're a decent support unit to things like a chariot/s or else for acting as an anvil and holding an enemy unit in place for a turn so you can flank them with something nasty.
Plus, you can always use the Lore of Beasts signature spell Wyssan's Wildform to boost their S/T by +1.

Just keep them near your General & typically also your Battle Standard Bearer however, as their low Ld6 means they're rather easy to panic!

Experiment 626 wrote:

 lobbywatson wrote:
My fault. I am awaiting the arrival of my WFB BRB. I hope the Island of Blood Rulebook is like the 40k Dark Vengeance one. It has all the rules and none of the fluff basically. If not I guess I'm out 25 bones.
Anyways so Ungors seem pretty pointless. Am I wrong here? The raiders have a very practical use but the normal.Ungors baffle me. Is there any reason to take them?

While spears are pretty much the single worst weapon upgrade in the game right now, 'sword & board' versions are a cheap way to build what's known as an 'infantry bus' aka: a unit with lots of ranks! You can use a unit of 30-35 Ungors ranked 5-wide to provide the ranks needed to keep your side Steadfast in a combat, while also limiting your actual fighting frontage meaning you'll take slightly fewer attacks in return.
It's not considered optimal at all by competitive players, but they're a decent support unit to things like a chariot/s or else for acting as an anvil and holding an enemy unit in place for a turn so you can flank them with something nasty.
Plus, you can always use the Lore of Beasts signature spell Wyssan's Wildform to boost their S/T by +1.

Just keep them near your General & typically also your Battle Standard Bearer however, as their low Ld6 means they're rather easy to panic!

To add to this though, I find a horded unit of Gors with AHW works really well when supported by a Beast Banner BSB.

Also, I'd alter Grix's Lord Choices, since you really want a Lord Level Wizard in your army, lest you be put at a big disadvantage. A Doombull with Heavy Armour, Shield, Gnarled Hide, Gouge-tusks, Ramhorn Helm, the ASF sword and a Tali of Endurance fits in alongside a Lvl4 Great Bray Shaman with a Dispel Scroll, in a 2500 point game.