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Yes, I imagine I may get called 'Heretic' by some of the fellow Guard players here, but lately I've started to wonder if I'm wasting my points on them. I only have a dozen games worth of experience, and so far my Russ's have not done 'amazing' things. Heck, one has yet to kill anything! Granted, I am a new player, and i imagine it's operator error on my part. But that's why I'm posting here. Common enemies are SM's, Tau, and Tyranids, and so far I can count the kills racked up by my Russ's on one hand (1 Crisis suit, 2 fire warriors, and 2 Marines). I bought them hoping to add some additional hard-hitting firepower to my list, but so far it hasn't worked out the way i hoped. They are 2 Main Battle Tanks with triple heavy bolters. The rest of my small list is below.



Out of everything I've got, the Hellhound is the killiest (sp?) unit in my list, it always makes a good show and has always earned its points back plus some. Meanwhile, the Russ's seem to struggle to not only stay alive long enough to get to shoot (Hammerheads eat these things for lunch I've found out), but to actually kill something when it hits (Seem to get an average of 2-3 models underneath the template when i shoot then after saves maybe one dies).

Like i said, I imagine it's something I'm doing wrong with them(read-"noob"), but I was hoping for a little feedback from the community. Should i move on from the MBT to the more specialized variants? Are MBT's just not that good? Perhaps not even take them in a list? Any feedback would be greatly appreciated!

LR are not that good , you should be using vanquishers.

With the current state of the Leman Russ chassis in general, you're better off using artillery.

The standard LRBT isn't great, and you should never be using sponsons on them as you have to snap fire the bolters.

Some of the variants, especially the demolisher, can be very useful but I'd probably avoid the BT just because the basilisk does it's job for much cheaper and can hide in cover.

Pretty much the above. The stock Russ, sadly, is probably the worst to use. Adding triple bolters isn't great either, sadly.

If you can, replace them with Vanquishers with Plasma cannons, bare bones Demolishers, or Exterminators with bolters. Meta depending.

Leman Russ tanks have some issues.

Like most other tanks, they got hit with a massive nerfbat in 6th just with the core vehicle rules. The change in Lumbering Behemoth to "heavy" also negatively impacted the capability and performance of the Ordnance Leman Russ tanks. So ultimately they're less survivable than they were previously, and less effective. They're also exceedingly vulnerable to a huge number of very common AT methods having to largely rely purely on their AV for survival, without effective access to generating its own cover saves/enhancing cover saves/speed/etc and still remains just as easy to kill in assaults as a Rhino or Chimera.

Also, while the LRBT's S8 AP3 cannon is often much lauded as a scary weapon (because in a perfect situation it can wipe out an entire MEQ squad in one hit), a bit of marginal spread and a modicum of cover drastically reduces its effectiveness. It's a weapon that very much relies on an opponent making a mistake. If they spread out a bit, have even just a 5+ cover save, and if you average scatter in there, an LRBT is probably only killing 1-2 guys a turn on average with that cannon. Several of the more specialized Leman Russ tanks likewise also aren't particularly effective at their dedicated roles, the Vanquisher prime amongst them (being BS3 with 1 shot and no AP1 means it's not doing huge amounts of damage).

Makumba wrote:
LR are not that good , you should be using vanquishers.

Vanquishers are kind of awful. They hit only half the time and cost more than a Leman Russ. They're also nowhere near as versatile as a Leman Russ. Demolishers are awesome, standard LRBTs are pretty alright. The other variants are all pretty meh overall.

Executioners are awesome. The weapon is scary and who doesn't want to field a plasma tank

The armored battlegroup's command tank or commisar tank seem the best way to field a Vanquisher, BS 4 with a fair chance of making them TL and the option for Instant Death with beasthunter shells, which seems neat in a edition where MCs are kings.

Also instead of Demolishers I'm considering building at least a couple thunderers, the important bit about the Demolisher on a 20 point cheaper package that's not Heavy.

I found the same thing (after shelling out on several leman Russ- no pun)

I now use hellhound variants, their more specialised and not as high armoured but I can keep them in reserve and use the fast rule to get them into position ahead of the shooting

Leman russes, in general, are just fine. An exterminator with hull lascannon and sponsons multimeltas puts out nearly the exact same damage profile as an autocannon HWS and a lascannon HWS (the most efficient ways of putting out firepower in the codex), for roughly the same price, but with MUCH, MUCH more durability than HWSs.

The problem isn't with russes in general, it's with the russes you're taking in specific. The LRBT is, by far, the worst russ at the moment. Battlecannons are wretched, and it forces snap firing on the weapons that do most of the killing power for the tank (the hull weapons). If you make the switch to vanquishers, punishers, or executioners with hull lascannons and sponson multimeltas/plasma cannons, you'll find that they suddenly do a LOT more than your LRBTs did. More than enough to justify the increase in cost.

Wow, thanks for the input guys! Much appreciated!

@Ailaros, or anyone for that matter, You said that a 'specialized' Russ will "...suddenly do a LOT more than the LRBT". I'm assuming your talking about changing out two LRBT's for two specialized variants? what if I switched to just one specialized variant (say Executioner, seems to be the tank of choice) and spent the leftover points somewhere else? Would that one Russ 'most likely' do more damage than two LRBT's?

Respectfully, I disagree with Vanquishers being a viable alternative to the LRBT. I seem to be using tanks to shoot at infantry in my lists, so while it works for some people, I don't believe they would be an ideal choice for me.

With the suggestions of artillery and support for the Hellhound variants, I may consider dropping the Russ chassis altogether, unless I can get some more knowledge about the question of whether or not one specialized variant will most likely do more damage than two LRBT's. I know redundancy is important, but if the Russ chassis in general took that big of a nerf than I don't want to sink too many points into them if they're too big of a liability.

Vanquishers are fine (and my top choice, as they're the best against both vehicles and monstrous creatures (well, and not being extra expensive)), but if you don't want to shoot them primarily at vehicles, then yeah, you'll want something else.

I wouldn't drop two LRBTs for a single russ of another type. I'd find ways to cut points from the rest of your list to upgrade your 2 LRBTs into 2 good tanks. The biggest problem that you're having is that you're spending points to get the tanks, but not spending the extra points to make the tanks good. It's all getting eaten up by carrier costs.

Of course, which tank you take will depend entirely on your list and what you want to do with the tanks. If you're looking for an infantry killer, you could consider the eradicator (which is also large blast, but at least it ignores cover), or, much better yet, the punisher. The las/MM punisher would be my #1 recommended tank if it weren't for the obnoxious meta filled with things the punisher doesn't excel against.

Definately food for thought. I appreciate all the help guys! Kinda sad to hear the regular ole' Russ is kinda lackluster, but it does make sense with the rules. Also since I'm new and just heard there's a chance of a new codex in a month or so, I guess I may be waiting to see what happens with the Russ chassis. ( I know, I know, I must've been living under a rock lately lol)

 Flinty wrote:
Executioners are awesome. The weapon is scary and who doesn't want to field a plasma tank

Ooh! I actually forgot the Executioner. Yeah, that one's really neat. Plasma cannon sponsons work thematically and functionally really well with the main gun, but Gets Hot! can lead to melting off an occasional hull point.

 Brother SRM wrote:

 Flinty wrote:
Executioners are awesome. The weapon is scary and who doesn't want to field a plasma tank

Ooh! I actually forgot the Executioner. Yeah, that one's really neat. Plasma cannon sponsons work thematically and functionally really well with the main gun, but Gets Hot! can lead to melting off an occasional hull point.

Yea. Plasma sponsons seem to make for an expensive tank, but as Ailaros mentioned, I don't seem to be making the tanks worth their weight, just paying for the chassis. May be something to look into, but for now I wonder how a no-sponson executioner would do. Thoughts? Also like the possibility of the bolter-boat exterminator.

I think a sponsonless Executioner can still do some hefty damage. Taking sponsons just means you can take full advantage of the Lumbering Behemoth rule, and a weapon destroyed result is less likely to knock out your super cool gun.

 Brother SRM wrote:
I think a sponsonless Executioner can still do some hefty damage. Taking sponsons just means you can take full advantage of the Lumbering Behemoth rule, and a weapon destroyed result is less likely to knock out your super cool gun.

I didn't think Lumbering Behemoth was in effect due to it being classified as Heavy? Sorry if that's a noob question.

Conqueror LR are pretty decent. Often getting TL blasts, able to move 12" in a pinch, can fire all weapons at full BS. Not too shabby.

Yea, Lumbering Behemoth is gone, that rule was removed in the last I.G. FAQ.

Leman Russes are just Heavy Vehicles now, and fall under the same rule about ordnance that any other vehicle does. Leman Russes with non-ordnance weapons are where you put sponsons. If you're running a demolisher, an eradicator, or a Battlecannon Leman Russ, you're best bet is to run a hull heavy bolter (or, Heavy Flamer, which is my preference) and that's it. Alternatively, if you want to spend a handful of points for it, throwing a heavy stubber on top of the turret does not suck either since it can at least snap fire when the big gun shoots.

Personally, here's how I rate Leman Russes in order of usefulness from most to least.

Exterminator (4 shot twinlinked autocannon + sponson/hull heavy bolters and a heavy stubber, all for less than 200 points. Solid. Gold.)

Executioner (Giant Turret Plasma cannon, hull Lascannon or Heavy Flamer, sponson heavy bolters or Multimeltas. Run this tank and build it to match the role you want depending on points available and how effective you want it to be vs. armor or infantry. Personally I prefer to run it with heavy bolter sponsons, a hull mounted heavy flamer, and points allowing, a pintle heavy stubber. It's expensive, to the tune of 210 points minimum, but inside of 36" whatever it points at is going to have a very, very bad day.)

Vanquisher (Best anti-armor weapon in the codex. It's 50/50 hit but if you use an inquisitor ally you can hit this tank with prescience and the odds of it hitting go way, way up. Put a hull Lascannon on it and call it done. At a scant 170 points, it does its job and does it well. No point in putting sponsons on it in my opinion, as it's designed to be a long range stand-off anti-armor tank. Though slapping heavy bolter sponsons on it doesn't suck and it's still under 200 points even if you do choose to do so.)

Demolisher (Short range, but devastating when it hits if it can reach the target. This is another tank I'd avoid sponsons on. Put a Hull Heavy Flamer on it in case something gets close to it, or leave the Heavy Bolter in the hull for snap-fire purposes. Also another prime candidate for a pintle heavy stubber. Probably one of my favorite tanks in the codex, all told, as people give it a wide berth and it provides excellent area denial.)

Punisher (Aesthetically, my favorite tank bar none. Much like the Demolisher, it's got short range by comparison, but unlike the Demolisher, this tank should, points allowing, always be run with heavy bolter sponsons and a hull heavy bolter, plus a heavy stubber. That's a withering 32 shots from this thing in a single round of shooting, 29 of which are strength 5, and the remaining 3 shots being strength 4. If you can get prescience close by via an allied inquisitor, this tank goes from damn good to downright lethal. The kicker? Even with a heavy stubber, this tank clocks in at 210 points. Considering the volume of fire it can put down, that's a bargain in my view.)

Eradicator (Again, like the demolisher, I'd avoid sponsons. They're just not worth the points it in my view, as they'll be snap firing more often than not. Run a hull heavy bolter or heavy flamer to taste and let this thing clear out units that rely on cover saves to survive. If you want to run a heavy stubber that isn't a bad idea either, simply to make it less likely that you'll lose your main turret weapon in the event you take a weapon destroyed result. Overall I'd class this variant equally with a standard Leman Russ with a Battlecannon, but have it placed above the standard LRBT due to the proliferation of cover saves in the current rules of 40k.)

Leman Russ Battle Tank (No sponsons, hull weapon to taste and a pintle heavy stubber if points allow so you're less likely to lose the battlecannon on a weapon destroyed result. I personally prefer this tank over the Eradicator as the higher strength and better range give the tank a little more versatility and threaten a wider range of targets, both infantry, and armor alike.)

That's my thoughts on that. Hopefully it helps some out there.

Take it easy for now.

-Red__Thirst-

I like Demolishers, Bolter-toting Exterminators, and Executioners (possibly with Bolters). Usually I find I have enough anti-infantry power in the form of a bucketload of Lasguns, though, so I tend to try and kit my Russes out for dealing with monsters/vehicles.

Demolishers are just good in general. 15pts more than a Leman Russ, slap on a Heavy Flamer (the hull bolter is rarely going to do anything worthwhile and the HF is good for a desperate defence should enemies get close), and call it good. 24" (30", with the tank's movement) may not seem like much compared to the Battle Canon's 72" but in my experience at least 4/5 games I play pretty much all the important action has taken place within range of the Demolisher Cannon. And S10/AP2 makes a huge difference. In particular it's really great at anti-vehicle work (Any part of the template is S10 in 6th, you get two rolls to penetrate, and AP2 gives you a bonus to damage). It'll give most infantry units pause, too, in my experience.

The Executioner gets pricey, but it's a rather nice tank. 3 plasma blasts can be pretty formidable when used right and the weapon lacks Gets Hot! The gun is also Heavy, so you can take bolter sponsons to add just a bit more firepower and, more importantly, make it harder to destroy the gun.

Finally there's the Exterminator. I really like running it with Pask and Heavy Bolters because it's pretty good at shredding vehicles and it's done alright at drowning monsters in shots (and has enough shots to be ok at spamming them at flyers when other anti-air fire fails). To top it all off it's also good at mowing down infantry once the heavy targets have been disabled. It's some 220pts, though, and admittedly, there are better ways to get the job done. Without Pask an Exterminator toting bolter sponsons is good at mowing down blobs and killing light vehicles (in particular it's rather nice against DE and pretty good against Rhinos and the like), but I'm not sure that it's the best use of a Russ hull when we can get so much dakka spam elsewhere.

 Lobukia wrote:
Conqueror LR are pretty decent. Often getting TL blasts, able to move 12" in a pinch, can fire all weapons at full BS. Not too shabby.

No, they're garbage. They aren't heavy so if you move you can only fire one weapon at full BS (and good luck getting twin-linked blasts with your BS 1 coax gun), and the small blast main gun is a joke. If you want a cheap LRBT take an Annihilator, which will out-perform the Conqueror in pretty much every possible situation.

 Red__Thirst wrote:

Vanquisher (Best anti-armor weapon in the codex.

The Medusa Siege gun with bastion breaching shell says hi

 Red__Thirst wrote:

Punisher (Aesthetically, my favorite tank bar none. Much like the Demolisher, it's got short range by comparison, but unlike the Demolisher, this tank should, points allowing, always be run with heavy bolter sponsons and a hull heavy bolter, plus a heavy stubber. That's a withering 32 shots from this thing in a single round of shooting, 29 of which are strength 5, and the remaining 3 shots being strength 4. If you can get prescience close by via an allied inquisitor, this tank goes from damn good to downright lethal. The kicker? Even with a heavy stubber, this tank clocks in at 210 points. Considering the volume of fire it can put down, that's a bargain in my view.)

-Red__Thirst-

I'm actually... really glad to hear that Punisher can perform well. Never had a chance to play the game... but been assembling and painting. Anyways... bought and assembled a punisher as I liked it looks and throwing 20 dices sounded like a neat idea. Only later I started to think, if it was ideal thing to do at all, even if it's sole purpose is to give me that much needed anti-infantry support that my other-vice rather anti-tank weaponed battle-group is missing. Also thanks for quoting Eradicator! I never find any info if it's performing well or badly or anything on table-top. Codexes only tells so little about the performance. Why is this meaningful in any way? Because I'm curious about things that I think are cool. xP

The Medusa Siege gun with bastion breaching shell says hi

Also... kinda have to agree with this. At-least stat-vice. *Shrugs*

Underwhelming and pig-ugly too.

In dire need of a redesign. The model itself is old enough to vote and almost old enough to drink in California.

Small blast, too so if a bunch of termies are clumped up you can do some damage to them.

And the shell add 12 inches more range.

 Bobthehero wrote:

 Red__Thirst wrote:

Vanquisher (Best anti-armor weapon in the codex.

The Medusa Siege gun with bastion breaching shell says hi

That, my good man, is your opinion (Which I completely respect I'll note). That said, I prefer the Vanquisher hands down for two reasons.

One, 72" range. Can I see it? Then I can hit it. The Medusa has a MUCH shorter range by comparison.
Two, Direct fire NON-ordnance. The tank comes in at 170 points when equipped with a hull lascannon that will likely be able to reach the same target the main Vanquisher cannon can strike.

Granted, the Medusa can hit targets it can't see, but here's my main point. You get one roll of a scatter dice which has a 33% chance to hit (Two of the six sides are 'hit') and you get no reduction to the scatter distance if you're firing it indirectly if I'm not mistaken.
Versus two chances to hit; once with a ST:8 + 2D6 armor pen and AP2, as well as once with a ST:9 AP2 Lascannon on a 4 or better. 50% chance to hit on both weapons. The points difference between the two tanks isn't substantial in my (ever so humble) opinion, and last but not least, the Vanquisher pattern Leman Russ has front armor 14, in addition to not being open topped.

If I'm going to run artillery, I'm going to run Griffon mortar tanks. You can get two of them for the same cost of a bare-bones LRBT, and they're twice as accurate on average. I run a pair of them in nearly every I.G. list I build for this reason. They're cheap and amazingly effective.

Just my opinion. The Medusa is great for what it does, but for my money/points, give me a Vanquisher any day for dealing with armor of any sort.

Take it easy.

-RT-

I hope that when the new IG comes out we get tank formation as DLC. 3 of X tank outside of FoC as a single choice with something juicy add. Like gryfons could have an order to shot twice in one turn , but next turn they wouldn't be able to shot. Medusas could get some sort of preemptive siege shelling .Would still be less powerful then what tau got for their formation.

@Red_Thirst

The Medusa with BB shells is a non-ordnance, direct fire weapon as well as the Vanquisher. Though I suspect its more accurate when shooting at vehicles due to the nature of blasts now. In any case, I'd much rather have S10 +2D6 at AP1.

And its still 48" range, which means it can still reach out and touch someone.

And its cheaper.

@Makumba

You want DLC? Eugh, count me out. I want a complete codex from the get go, and not forced to buy DLC to have an effective or varied force.

I don't want it , but the chance to get formation in a codex is equal to 0. I rather have a good DLC formation , then no formation at all.