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Most of the traitor Primarchs come to the Heresy with a plausible reason for why the Imperium/Emperor/Primarchs 'failed them' in some fashion, arguably excusing their actions (at least in their own minds). Now, the degree of plausibility (and the degree to which they buy their own crap) varies between Primarchs, but the HH series has done a good job of at least trying to flesh these guys out. So tell me, of the traitor Primarchs, which do you think had the most legitimate grievance? Which of them is the most sympathetic person? Are there any of them that you look at and say, "you know, in his position I might have done the same damn thing," or are they all just traitorous scum who deserve their eventual fate?

Thats an easy one, Magnus. So a few thousand people died when he broke the barrier, At least he tried to tell the pompus emperor about Horus. There was no need to go sending space puppies to wipe out an entire legion.

Ohh, after reading Betrayer I gotta give it to Angron. He got wronged by the Emperor from the get-go.

I'm voting Perturabo.

Angel Exterminatus shows him to be a much more complex character than previously portrayed, with a talent and passion for constructing intricate and delicate machines, but he's regarded by his father and brothers as a blunt instrument suitable for only doing the dirty work they don't want to bother with, which he does out of a sense of duty.

 Jimsolo wrote:
Ohh, after reading Betrayer I gotta give it to Angron. He got wronged by the Emperor from the get-go.

Angron got a few of his friends left behined. Magnus had his Planet burned to the ground...... still going for magnus here.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 azreal13 wrote:
I'm voting Perturabo.

Angel Exterminatus shows him to be a much more complex character than previously portrayed, with a talent and passion for constructing intricate and delicate machines, but he's regarded by his father and brothers as a blunt instrument suitable for only doing the dirty work they don't want to bother with, which he does out of a sense of duty.

thats not realy a sad a story though, He is to the traitors as Dorn is to the Loyalists. they are the Workers and siege masters, constructing machines do deal death or deffend.

Yeah Magnus for me. There are a few others it's possible to understand but Magnus stands out. That Tzeentch lol.

Magnus, by like a million percent.

First, he only did what he was told not to in order to PREVENT tragedy. He's the only traitor primarch who actively sought to prevent the Horus Heresy.

Second, the Space Wolves were not sent to destroy Prospero. At least, not initially. From what I understand, Horus intercepted the message from the Emperor to Leman Russ and manipulated it from being a "bring in for questioning" order to a straight kill order, so he got boned yet again by the dickishness of his brothers.

And even then, he didn't want to kill brother space marines even as much as he didn't like the Space Wolves so he didn't actively join the fighting til it was clear if he didn't, they'd lose. Then Tzeentch was like "HERE YOU GO FRIEND HAVE SOME DAEMON POWER," cursing the whole remants of his legion.

And then, they suffered more tragedy post-chaos. Trying to prevent the mutations from having to reside in the warp, Ahriman got all "I CAN DO THIS MAAAAAAN" and totally screwed up his spell so everyone that wasn't psychic turned to dust. Magnus just can't win, man.

 cerbrus2 wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:
Ohh, after reading Betrayer I gotta give it to Angron. He got wronged by the Emperor from the get-go.

thats not realy a sad a story though, He is to the traitors as Dorn is to the Loyalists. they are the Workers and siege masters, constructing machines do deal death or deffend.

 SRSFACE wrote:
And then, they suffered more tragedy post-chaos. Trying to prevent the mutations from having to reside in the warp, Ahriman got all "I CAN DO THIS MAAAAAAN" and totally screwed up his spell so everyone that wasn't psychic turned to dust. Magnus just can't win, man.

I agree that Magnus has the most tragic story, but Ahriman didn't cast the Rubric in an act of cockiness. He cast the Rubric because Magnus was content to sit within his tower and let his sons mutate. Ahriman pleaded for Magnus to help them, but Magnus refused because the last time he had attempted to save them, he inadvertently cursed them all. You can't blame Ahriman for not accepting the destruction of his brothers. If it wasn't for Ahriman there wouldn't be any Thousand Sons at all, Mangus would have let the Wolves kill them all on Prospero.

 cerbrus2 wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:
I'm voting Perturabo.

Angel Exterminatus shows him to be a much more complex character than previously portrayed, with a talent and passion for constructing intricate and delicate machines, but he's regarded by his father and brothers as a blunt instrument suitable for only doing the dirty work they don't want to bother with, which he does out of a sense of duty.

thats not realy a sad a story though, He is to the traitors as Dorn is to the Loyalists. they are the Workers and siege masters, constructing machines do deal death or deffend.

Yeah...no.

Read the book, or reread it as you've missed the point if you already have.

He's an artisan with a highly developed sense of honour and duty. You've made the exact same assumption about him as the people he ultimately rebelled against.

Oh, and FYI, sympathetic doesn't mean sad.

I haven't read that one yet, azreal. I'll have to give it a go. I've been fairly unimpressed with Graham McNeill's work to date, but from what you say, it sounds like it could be really good.

I totally agree with you on sympathetic =/= sad. I just love the backstory behind Angron's fall. Just the idea of someone who had finally gained such a crystal clear picture of his life, only to have it snatched away? Awesome. And not only was he denied his perceived role as the Gladiator King, dying in heroic defiance of his tyrannical captors, but was forced to leave them behind to die, in essence forcing him into the role of a coward. When he talks about how he's already dead, that he died back in the mountains, I really felt a sense of empathy for him. I mean, he's a monster and all, but I still felt bad for him, at least for a minute.

Magnus all the way, everything he ever did was for the good of someone else. Gave his eye to Tzeentch to save his sons, warn the emperor that Horus turned, and tried to prevent conflict on Tizca by psychically blocking everyone from seeing the wolves (he didn't know Horus had changed Russ' orders from capture to kill), the guy gets screwed every step of the way. A thousand sons has to be my favorite book so far from the HH series, pretty much the reason I turned to chaos.

I feel sorry for Lorgar - there's a lot of stuff with people calling him an emo loser, but for me, the Emperor did not treat him right at all - "My son thinks I'm awesome enough to be a god - I know! I'll crush an innocent, loyal planet to make him stop!" The guy needed a good father figure - probably why Kor Phaeron and Erebus had so much power over him. He didn't want to be a warrior either - but no choice given!

Perturabo is a very close rival though - he wasn't treated very well, and no-one likes feeling unappreciated. Horus showed some appreciation, therefore I can't fault Perturabo for siding with him.

 Jimsolo wrote:
I haven't read that one yet, azreal. I'll have to give it a go. I've been fairly unimpressed with Graham McNeill's work to date, but from what you say, it sounds like it could be really good.

I totally agree with you on sympathetic =/= sad. I just love the backstory behind Angron's fall. Just the idea of someone who had finally gained such a crystal clear picture of his life, only to have it snatched away? Awesome. And not only was he denied his perceived role as the Gladiator King, dying in heroic defiance of his tyrannical captors, but was forced to leave them behind to die, in essence forcing him into the role of a coward. When he talks about how he's already dead, that he died back in the mountains, I really felt a sense of empathy for him. I mean, he's a monster and all, but I still felt bad for him, at least for a minute.

I'm a big fan of McNeil when it comes to his portrayal of Slaanesh, he manages to get past the sniggering about boobies and taps into a more Hellraiser vibe, which coming from the Realm Of Chaos era myself, is a lot more reflective of 'my' Slaanesh. (Fulgrim and the EC being the other significant Legion to feature in Angel Exterminatus)

Thing is with Angron, for me, is that everything is kind of inevitable, he was broken from the get go, and if the Heresy had never happened, I somehow doubt things would ever have ended well for him. Which makes him a tragic character, but Perturabo seems to have had so much potential to have been a better person, and would have been if others had just been slightly different in the way they treated him.

Horus was poisoned, Lorgar was a petulant child, Fulgrim was arrogant, Curze was a psychopath, Angron was broken, Mortarion was backed into a corner, Magnus..perhaps, but if he'd listened to the Emperor and done as he was told, he'd have been fine, and nobody really knows what side Alpharius was on!

 azreal13 wrote:
...and nobody really knows what side Alpharius was on!

Probably on a huge load of warpdust.

I have the most sympathy towards Angron. He was the most broken of the bunch. Doomed to be angry and eventually to die due to the nails.
Magnus on second place. Though he was tempering with warp powers on his own act. Angron couldn't help it as much. Angron would have died to the nails if there weren't a heresy. It was inevitable.

I'd argue with you that the Emperor was somewhat stupid about it though. Hey second mightiest psyker in the entire world. Don't use your powers, the things you've been raised sense youth to do NO NOT AT ALL DON'T DO IT! Oh all the while using it yourself. Also doesn't help Tzeentch was meddling the whole way.

I do agree with you on Angron. Also, I feel rather sympathetic to Perturabo and to a slight extent Lorgar.

Also, whilst Tzeentch is my favorite, slaanesh is my second favorite and I'm glad when they get past the boobies and taps part.

I WANT to say Lorgar but it just isn't true. Hes a sympathetic character but his reason for turning really pales in comparison to Magnus, who was more or less betrayed by the emperor before Magnus even hinted at heresy

I would say angron, we can see from his legion pre nails that they took brotherhood and loyalty utterly seriously, Angron could have beem the primarch to unite the others through brotherhood and comraderie but the nails twisted everything so much that there is no way to see how he could have changed things had they not been implanted.

Heaped on top of this sheer feeling of utter failure he must have had, the emperor murdered though lack of action angrons friends and family (yep he considered them family), his brothers shunned him thinking him insane and he was the only primarch not to take over his homeworld in some aspect..... got to feel sorry for the guy who never was given a real chance, spat on his entire life and forced to kill in the name of someone who cared nothing for him (both the nucerians and the emperor) he finally rebels just to have some modicum of freedom only to be manipulated by a madman and sorceror and turned into an abomination.... its true that the galaxy is a harsh place

Lol, NO love for Horus or Mortarion.

Magnus and it isn't even close.

Magnus doesnt feel tragic for me, it was his own arrogance and hubris thinking he knew better than the Emp and his brothers that led to his fall, the Wolves are just the Effect not the cause, he brought it on himself.

also he was a traitor through and through, he was told not to dabble by the emperor, then nikea was another chance from the emperor to bring him into line, both were completely ignored, he may have meant well but he damned himself through his own actions and deserves no sympathy for that, if anything its his sons that deserve the sympathy as they were not to blame.

 Formosa wrote:
Magnus doesnt feel tragic for me, it was his own arrogance and hubris thinking he knew better than the Emp and his brothers that led to his fall, the Wolves are just the Effect not the cause, he brought it on himself.

also he was a traitor through and through, he was told not to dabble by the emperor, then nikea was another chance from the emperor to bring him into line, both were completely ignored, he may have meant well but he damned himself through his own actions and deserves no sympathy for that, if anything its his sons that deserve the sympathy as they were not to blame.

Because he DID know better than the Emperor. He literally knew tragedy was about to happen and did the only thing he could to prevent it. It was the Emperor's hubris and arrogance that doomed Magnus and Big E himself. If The Emperor heeded the warnings, he probably wouldn't have died.





Serious question for everyone, are you familiar with actual tragic stories, as in the ones that defined it? Stuff like Oedipus, and the like? Bringing doom upon yourself is kind of the lynchpin of all those stories. It's about pride leading to our downfall. Like I said in the thread "who caused the Horus Heresy," everyone did. It was a lot of chest thumping and pride and anger and sadness on everyone's sides. The entire thing reads like an epic Greek tragedy.

 SRSFACE wrote:
Magnus, by like a million percent.

First, he only did what he was told not to in order to PREVENT tragedy. He's the only traitor primarch who actively sought to prevent the Horus Heresy.

Second, the Space Wolves were not sent to destroy Prospero. At least, not initially. From what I understand, Horus intercepted the message from the Emperor to Leman Russ and manipulated it from being a "bring in for questioning" order to a straight kill order, so he got boned yet again by the dickishness of his brothers.

And even then, he didn't want to kill brother space marines even as much as he didn't like the Space Wolves so he didn't actively join the fighting til it was clear if he didn't, they'd lose. Then Tzeentch was like "HERE YOU GO FRIEND HAVE SOME DAEMON POWER," cursing the whole remants of his legion.

And then, they suffered more tragedy post-chaos. Trying to prevent the mutations from having to reside in the warp, Ahriman got all "I CAN DO THIS MAAAAAAN" and totally screwed up his spell so everyone that wasn't psychic turned to dust. Magnus just can't win, man.

This. He didn't do anything wrong, got screwed by both sides and had his whole world (literally) burned to nothing.

 SRSFACE wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
Magnus doesnt feel tragic for me, it was his own arrogance and hubris thinking he knew better than the Emp and his brothers that led to his fall, the Wolves are just the Effect not the cause, he brought it on himself.

also he was a traitor through and through, he was told not to dabble by the emperor, then nikea was another chance from the emperor to bring him into line, both were completely ignored, he may have meant well but he damned himself through his own actions and deserves no sympathy for that, if anything its his sons that deserve the sympathy as they were not to blame.

Because he DID know better than the Emperor. He literally knew tragedy was about to happen and did the only thing he could to prevent it. It was the Emperor's hubris and arrogance that doomed Magnus and Big E himself. If The Emperor heeded the warnings, he probably wouldn't have died.

Except Magnus, when projecting his spirit across the Galaxy, fethed up the Emperors plans by charging in like a clumsy bull and ruining everything. It is pretty heavily implied that the Emperor had a plan, and Magnus cocked it up.

 SRSFACE wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
Magnus doesnt feel tragic for me, it was his own arrogance and hubris thinking he knew better than the Emp and his brothers that led to his fall, the Wolves are just the Effect not the cause, he brought it on himself.

also he was a traitor through and through, he was told not to dabble by the emperor, then nikea was another chance from the emperor to bring him into line, both were completely ignored, he may have meant well but he damned himself through his own actions and deserves no sympathy for that, if anything its his sons that deserve the sympathy as they were not to blame.

Because he DID know better than the Emperor. He literally knew tragedy was about to happen and did the only thing he could to prevent it. It was the Emperor's hubris and arrogance that doomed Magnus and Big E himself. If The Emperor heeded the warnings, he probably wouldn't have died.





Serious question for everyone, are you familiar with actual tragic stories, as in the ones that defined it? Stuff like Oedipus, and the like? Bringing doom upon yourself is kind of the lynchpin of all those stories. It's about pride leading to our downfall. Like I said in the thread "who caused the Horus Heresy," everyone did. It was a lot of chest thumping and pride and anger and sadness on everyone's sides. The entire thing reads like an epic Greek tragedy.

I'm not so sure. I think Curze and Angron were pretty much already screwed up so bad by the time they got handed their Legions, that there was never any other way for it to go. The reason I picked Angron as my own vote was that I really don't think his own hubris caused his downfall. I'm not saying he isn't responsible for his own actions, but the moment the Emperor beamed him up to the spaceship from those mountains, there was never going to be a good outcome for their relationship.

 azreal13 wrote:

 SRSFACE wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
Magnus doesnt feel tragic for me, it was his own arrogance and hubris thinking he knew better than the Emp and his brothers that led to his fall, the Wolves are just the Effect not the cause, he brought it on himself.

also he was a traitor through and through, he was told not to dabble by the emperor, then nikea was another chance from the emperor to bring him into line, both were completely ignored, he may have meant well but he damned himself through his own actions and deserves no sympathy for that, if anything its his sons that deserve the sympathy as they were not to blame.

Because he DID know better than the Emperor. He literally knew tragedy was about to happen and did the only thing he could to prevent it. It was the Emperor's hubris and arrogance that doomed Magnus and Big E himself. If The Emperor heeded the warnings, he probably wouldn't have died.

Except Magnus, when projecting his spirit across the Galaxy, fethed up the Emperors plans by charging in like a clumsy bull and ruining everything. It is pretty heavily implied that the Emperor had a plan, and Magnus cocked it up.

I agree here, Magnus was so shocked and just brashly sent it hoping it would solve their problems. Instead, he unkowingly smashes the Emperor's plan open, floods it with warpy goodness, and kills many Imperial citizens. Then again, I still like to say that the Emperor wasn't really brilliant either. Bans the most potent psyker sense himself from using psyker spells, entirely ignores warning, makes it possible for Horus to hear and thus change the message. I still hold sympathy to Magnus, that doesn't mean that his own ego didn't blow up in his face.

Magnus, followed by either angron and perturabo

Night Haunter fanboy (obviously)

 Jimsolo wrote:
I haven't read that one yet, azreal. I'll have to give it a go. I've been fairly unimpressed with Graham McNeill's work to date, but from what you say, it sounds like it could be really good.

I totally agree with you on sympathetic =/= sad. I just love the backstory behind Angron's fall. Just the idea of someone who had finally gained such a crystal clear picture of his life, only to have it snatched away? Awesome. And not only was he denied his perceived role as the Gladiator King, dying in heroic defiance of his tyrannical captors, but was forced to leave them behind to die, in essence forcing him into the role of a coward. When he talks about how he's already dead, that he died back in the mountains, I really felt a sense of empathy for him. I mean, he's a monster and all, but I still felt bad for him, at least for a minute.

Angel Exterminatus is the only book I have read from 40k....and I REALLY wish I didn't. When most people think of slaanesh pervdark, they get a kick out of it. THAT book, did the exact opposite. Seriously, prepare for some disturbing images. Which is why, honestly, I feel that its mostly a tie between Magnus and Perturabo.

Magnus was cruelly duped for most of the heresy, and he did quite a bit for his legion to stabilize the mutations. It was only in the end that he finally lost all hope and the sympathy ran out and turned to simple bitter grief. Perturabo was the one who probably cared the most for his legion out of all of the primarchs. Nine times out of ten, it was his men that did most of the dying while one of his brothers ran in front of him just as the pictures were being taken, to hog all the glory. The only reason he actually joined Horus is that Horus was the only one to be semi-polite to him in the end, with even Fulgrim trying to kill him! He and his men had a simple understanding; they would not be stepped on again.

I'd say Magnus. He even tried to save Horus when he was in a coma and warn him away from Chaos. He was enabled by the Emperor to use psycic powers to the point they became a lynch pin for his legion and the had the permission for their use yanked from under him, leaving his legion essentially crippled.

For my money, though, a close second is Lorgar.