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It's pretty obvious flyers feel a bit outside the rest of the unit types. Playing a SW infantry based army against multiple heldrakes and a LOC with Feel No Pain 4+ doesn't feel like much of a game. Any suggestions on these changes to help remove the dynamite from RPS? The group I play with is going to give these a shot, I'll post a BR if anyone's interested.

The basic idea was to streamline Flyer rules, like why don't you get a Jink when flying but you do when going slower and hovering, why does a Grot with a crap gun have the same chance of hitting a Flyer as a 3000 year old Space Marine with some techo-magic lascannon, why do you evade after wounds, but before armour pen results? I also had to switch a couple rules to make troops on transports and Monstrous Creatures more survivable to balance the change in To Hit.

Thanks guys

SPECIAL RULES
Skyfire pg 42

Change:
“Unless it also has the Interceptor special rule, it can only fire snap shots against other targets.”
To:
“Unless it also has the Interceptor special rule, it fires at BS – 1 to a minimum of BS 1 at other targets.”

VEHICLES
Zoom paragraph pg 80

Add:
“A Zooming Flyer has the Jink 5+ Special Rule.”

Zoom and Flat Out paragraph pg 81

Note:
The Jink Special Rule covers bonuses to the Flyer’s Jink Cover Save. So for example, a Zooming Flyer that goes Flat Out increases it’s Jink 5+ to a Jink 4+.”

Evade paragraph pg 81

Change:
“After the enemy has rolled To Hit against one of your Flyers, but before armour penetration rolls are made, you can choose to Evade until the end of your next turn. An evading Flyer has the Jink special rule, but only fires Snap Shots.”
To:
“After the enemy has rolled Armour Penetration rolls, you can choose to Evade until the end of your next turn. An Evading Flyer increases it’s Jink Special Rule by 1 until the end of your next turn. If the Evading Flyer does not have a Jink, it gains the Jink 6+ Special Rule. For example, a Zooming Flyer has a Jink 5+, which would be increases to a Jink 4+ after it elects to Evade, whereas a Zooming Flyer that has gone Flat Out would increases it’s Jink 4+ to a Jink 3+.

Hard to Hit paragraph pg 81

Change:
“Shots resolved at a Zooming Flyer can only be resolved as Snap Shots (unless the model or weapon has the Skyfire special rule, as described on page 42)”
To:
“Shots resolved by a model or weapon without the Skyfire special rule (page 42) at a Zooming Flyer are resolved at the model’s BS – 1 to a minimum of BS 1.”

Crash and Burn paragraph pg 81

Change:
“If the Flyer is also a Transport, any models within suffer a Strength 10 hit with no armour saves allowed”
To:
“If the Flyer is also a Transport, each unit embarked suffers a number of Strength 10 AP – hits equal to the number of models in the unit. The unit then takes a Pinning Test.”

FLYING MONSTROUS CREATURES
Swooping paragraph pg 49

Add:
“A Flying Monstrous Creature that is Swooping has the Jink 5+ Special Rule.”

Hard to Hit paragraph pg 49

Change:
“Shots resolved at such a target can only be resolved as Snap Shots unless the model or weapon has the Skyfire special rule (see page 42)”
To:
“Shots resolved by a model or weapon without the Skyfire special rule (page 42) at a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature are resolved at the model’s BS – 1 to a minimum of BS 1.”

Dive paragraph pg 49

Change:
“A Flying Monstrous Creature that is diving gains the Jink special rule until the end of its next turn.”
To:
“A Flying Monstrous Creature that is diving increases it’s Jink by 1. For example, a Diving Swooping Monstrous Creature increases it’s Jink 5+ to a Jink 4+.

Grounded Tests paragraph pg 49

Remove the Grounded Test rule from the game.

Add

"A zooming flyer that does not have the Strafing Attack USR can only make Snap Shots against ground targets"

Makes it so that most flyers that want to attack ground targets have to slow down and thus become easily targetable themselves.

Also, I think ground units firing at flyers should probably have a -2 to BS, not -1. That means your average troop (BS 3) shoots as if using Snap Fire, like the normal rules. Specialist units or Heroes would have a better "cinematic" chance to shoot down fliers.

Add:
Only Jet Pack, Jetbike and Jump Pack models may assault a zooming flyer. To determine the assault distance, measure the distance from the assaulting model to the base of the flyer and add 4". To represent the difficulty in hitting such a fast moving target, a charge against a zooming flyer is always a disordered charge; and the flyer counts as WS10.

(similarly for Flying Monstrous Creatures).

I always just thought that shooting at fliers should be resolved at -3 BS.

Instead of this snap shot business...or...all snap shots are -3 BS...not just BS1.

Most everyone out there will still be BS1, but you're rare high bs characters and rarer units will be able to shoot better.

My GK Grand Master is BS6...BS3 against flyers for one model in a squad isn't very overpowered.

 ductvader wrote:
I always just thought that shooting at fliers should be resolved at -3 BS.

Instead of this snap shot business...or...all snap shots are -3 BS...not just BS1.

Most everyone out there will still be BS1, but you're rare high bs characters and rarer units will be able to shoot better.

My GK Grand Master is BS6...BS3 against flyers for one model in a squad isn't very overpowered.

But Vindicare Assassins shooting Turbo-Penetrator rounds at BS5 against planes suddenly become much scarier...

IMO it should be the other way to improve realism: not only is any model without skyfire BS 1, but they have to re-roll hits and then the flyer gets a re-rollable 2++ cover save. This would adequately represent the difficulty of hitting a 500mph plane with a rifle. IOW, you're not going to do it.

Yep and they should have 10-meter high bases

 Peregrine wrote:
IMO it should be the other way to improve realism: not only is any model without skyfire BS 1, but they have to re-roll hits and then the flyer gets a re-rollable 2++ cover save. This would adequately represent the difficulty of hitting a 500mph plane with a rifle. IOW, you're not going to do it.

You may notice that at 40k scale these aren't planes at high altitude hitting the afterburners, they're flying low and slow to strafe ground targets. Close air support planes are, in point of fact, vulnerable to conventional weapons; the closest thing I can find to statistics on the plausibility is mention on Wikipedia's page on the A6 Intruder that of 84 A6s shot down during the Vietnam War 56 went down to anti-aircraft artillery and "conventional ground weapons", which suggests to me that yes, if you shoot at a low-flying airplane with rifle bullets you've got a chance of hitting it.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Close air support planes are, in point of fact, vulnerable to conventional weapons; the closest thing I can find to statistics on the plausibility is mention on Wikipedia's page on the A6 Intruder that of 84 A6s shot down during the Vietnam War 56 went down to anti-aircraft artillery and "conventional ground weapons", which suggests to me that yes, if you shoot at a low-flying airplane with rifle bullets you've got a chance of hitting it.

But under my system you DO have a chance, just not a very good one.

Also, your statistics are kind of misleading because those 56 kills include dedicated AA weapons (which would fire at full BS), not just randomly shooting rifles into the air and hoping to hit something. And note that the 56 kills were over eight years of bombing missions, which suggests that those "conventional ground weapons" weren't very effective. If anything the 1 in 1296 chance of hitting with a weapon that has a good chance of killing a flyer is probably too generous.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 koooaei wrote:
Yep and they should have 10-meter high bases

They should, but we're dealing with the realistic limitations of 28mm-scale plastic model kits. The obvious conclusion here is that the flyer model is not actually at the altitude of the model on the table, and the rules shouldn't pretend that it is.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 ductvader wrote:
I always just thought that shooting at fliers should be resolved at -3 BS.

Instead of this snap shot business...or...all snap shots are -3 BS...not just BS1.

Most everyone out there will still be BS1, but you're rare high bs characters and rarer units will be able to shoot better.

My GK Grand Master is BS6...BS3 against flyers for one model in a squad isn't very overpowered.

But Vindicare Assassins shooting Turbo-Penetrator rounds at BS5 against planes suddenly become much scarier...

Well, shouldn't it be?

Every missile launcher (including Ork Rokkits) in the game gets Flakk missiles for no additional points cost.

Problem basically solved. Yeah, it means you can load up your army with Missile Launchers, but at S7, Flakk missiles aren't that great at taking out the better flyers (Heldrakes, Stormravens, etc), so you can do it, but it's not like an automatic thing.

I personally think it's okay to have flyers be naturally immune to most shooting...GW just went way to overboard with protecting them by making the anti-aircraft upgrades to expensive points-wise.

^ That.

 yakface wrote:
Every missile launcher (including Ork Rokkits) in the game gets Flakk missiles for no additional points cost.

I like this, but think it should be a swap...on a per model basis.


It could be because I am comparing modern technology, but I like that SMAWs and IGLAs are different to different targets.


I also like that each has a disadvantage this way.

 ductvader wrote:

I like this, but think it should be a swap...on a per model basis.


It could be because I am comparing modern technology, but I like that SMAWs and IGLAs are different to different targets.


I also like that each has a disadvantage this way.

If they can swap out between Frag and Krak on the fly then fluff-wise it should be no problem to add Flakk missile into the mix.

But gameplay-wise, back in 5th edition it would have been an issue to give all MLs Flakk, because MLs were what everyone spammed like nuts. But 6th edition seems to have pushed more people to either AP1/2 weapons or S7 multi-shot stuff Autocannons, so MLs are no longer auto-include. But give them all Flakk missiles, and all of a sudden they're a lot more tempting.

And seriously, S7 missiles vs. a Helldrake is going to be a tough nut to crack anyway, so I don't think it would be too bad at all. Sure this rule change would make life miserable for the Tau, Eldar, Ork and DA flyers...but you'd just have to use some strategy now, y'know kill the stuff that can down you, instead of just flying on willy-nilly and only having to worry about enemy flyers really.

My main problem with this is that Missiles would have 3 firing modes that they would all be great at.

My Crimson Hunter is already something I have to be extremely careful to use.

48" S7 Skyfire for Free while maintaining S8 against serpents and the like...only to blow up the insides with S4 blasts...sounds like a bit too much for me.

I am perfectly fine with free, but I hate the idea of triple utility missiles.

Sounds like asking for the return of longfang death...not to mention what it would instantly do to Tyranids...

Stormonu wrote:Add

"A zooming flyer that does not have the Strafing Attack USR can only make Snap Shots against ground targets"

Makes it so that most flyers that want to attack ground targets have to slow down and thus become easily targetable themselves.

Also, I think ground units firing at flyers should probably have a -2 to BS, not -1. That means your average troop (BS 3) shoots as if using Snap Fire, like the normal rules. Specialist units or Heroes would have a better "cinematic" chance to shoot down fliers.

So your saying it should be easier for ground troops to hit flyers with out the specific gear necessary than it is for flyers to hit ground troops. And honestly I don't even know of any flyers with the strafing attack USR.

Trasvi wrote:Add:
Only Jet Pack, Jetbike and Jump Pack models may assault a zooming flyer. To determine the assault distance, measure the distance from the assaulting model to the base of the flyer and add 4". To represent the difficulty in hitting such a fast moving target, a charge against a zooming flyer is always a disordered charge; and the flyer counts as WS10.

(similarly for Flying Monstrous Creatures).

If the game is going to have flyers they should be unassaultable. Planes move a lot faster than guys with jet/jump packs or even guys with jetbikes (they are only as fast as normal bikes after all.)

If you really want to assault flyers you should also add some thing like only 6s will hit and on a 5+ (roll for each model) the assaulting model takes a S10 hit as it miscalculates its jump and gets hit by the flyer.

 NL_Cirrus wrote:
So your saying it should be easier for ground troops to hit flyers with out the specific gear necessary than it is for flyers to hit ground troops. And honestly I don't even know of any flyers with the strafing attack USR.

The most common flyer out there has it...the Storm Talon.

If flyers are a problem, you can always issue a blanket flyer ban in your local games. 40K was always meant as a small unit game where troops were called out due to the area being inaccessable to flying units and powerhouse units, anyway.

Of course, in terms of aircraft, several Italian fighters were shot down over Ethiopia in WWII by guys throwing spears at them, so, hey.

The all-missile-launchers-get-flakk isn't a bad idea, but then you've got three ammo profiles at least decent against every possible target; if you want to add flakk at no cost possibly require they swap something else for it?

 NL_Cirrus wrote:

Trasvi wrote:Add:
Only Jet Pack, Jetbike and Jump Pack models may assault a zooming flyer. To determine the assault distance, measure the distance from the assaulting model to the base of the flyer and add 4". To represent the difficulty in hitting such a fast moving target, a charge against a zooming flyer is always a disordered charge; and the flyer counts as WS10.

(similarly for Flying Monstrous Creatures).

If the game is going to have flyers they should be unassaultable. Planes move a lot faster than guys with jet/jump packs or even guys with jetbikes (they are only as fast as normal bikes after all.)
If you really want to assault flyers you should also add some thing like only 6s will hit and on a 5+ (roll for each model) the assaulting model takes a S10 hit as it miscalculates its jump and gets hit by the flyer.

On the other hand, I'm talking about game balance rather than trying to represent flyers 'realistically'. And if you really want to talk 'realism', in game flyers behave a lot more like helicopters than jet planes and should be treated as such. If the flyer can instantly go from zooming to hovering, it can't have been going that fast or flying that high before.

Some armies, particularly Daemons, lack viable anti-air options. They have only 1 anti-air shooting model (which has significantly worse performance than even a quad-gun) and then rely on spamming MCs for vector strikes, or rolling well on the boons table. Ground assault based daemon armies are not viable because you need to pour 1000+ points in to HQ/MC's to take down any flyers - or just go with the invincible screamer-star.
Allowing some models to assault a zooming flyer helps allow assault-oriented armies be relevant again.

As an ork player i don't have much trouble with flyers probably cept for necron flyers. I just plain ignore them. However, i see how stuff like helldrakes is super-annoying for, say, a biker list. On the whole, flyers are not bad and pretty well ballanced if you look at ork, sm, eldar, dark eldar flyers. In some cases they're even overpriced for what they do. But you start meeting problems with night scythe spam and baledrake spam. Maybe just nerf this exact flyers a bit without applying a gamewide ballance shift that'd make stuff like dakkajets unusable?