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Apple fox wrote: I realy just wanted to do head swaps, and some cool modification but full armor.
That's much, MUCH better head swaps are probably really the best way to do FSMs anyway.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
The best way to model FSM is ... to do nothing. Take a man or a woman and put them through that body horror, they end up looking exactly the same.
The real reason there are no female SM is because GW is accessing the trope of crusading monks. And there are no female monks, archetypically. Just like there are no male nuns.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
Plumbumbarum wrote: Yes and if there is a place for sexism in sf, it's in 40k. Along with racism, facism, church of rotten corpse, mass murder and other really bad things. "Oh they're killing untold billions there but what is important is that there is no gender equality" sounds a bit dumb imo.
40k cannot reinforce the real life murder of billions because there is no such thing. It is purely fictional. But sexism is a real thing that can be and is reinforced by the tropes of pop culture.
Messrs. Stalin, Mao, Pol, and Hitler lacked only the scale, not the motivation or opportunity.
Sometimes you have fun, and sometimes the fun has you. -Sgt. Schlock
Wyzilla wrote:
And how recent was that? As old fluff is fairly irrelevant as of now, and the Black Library overwhelms it with current fluff.
Right. Name me some Space Marines (apart from Wolves, who I have already admitted do things differently) who were recruited above the age of twelve, please - and tell me a reference for how old they were recruited.
Apple fox wrote: I realy just wanted to do head swaps, and some cool modification but full armor.
That's much, MUCH better head swaps are probably really the best way to do FSMs anyway.
Defenatly, not short of skimpy armor in this hobby :p. Would probably ad much more than take away hehe.
Where are you going to add armour to the Marines?! The only partially exposed parts are the insides of the elbows, the backs of the knees... oh, and I guess their 'soft midriffs'.
"That time I only loaded the cannon with powder. Next time, I will fill it with jewels and diamonds and they will cut you to shrebbons!" - Nogbad the Bad.
Wyzilla wrote:
And how recent was that? As old fluff is fairly irrelevant as of now, and the Black Library overwhelms it with current fluff.
Right. Name me some Space Marines (apart from Wolves, who I have already admitted do things differently) who were recruited above the age of twelve, please - and tell me a reference for how old they were recruited.
Apple fox wrote: I realy just wanted to do head swaps, and some cool modification but full armor.
That's much, MUCH better head swaps are probably really the best way to do FSMs anyway.
Defenatly, not short of skimpy armor in this hobby :p. Would probably ad much more than take away hehe.
Where are you going to add armour to the Marines?! The only partially exposed parts are the insides of the elbows, the backs of the knees... oh, and I guess their 'soft midriffs'.
I mean to add stuff over the armor, rather than take armor away.
Plumbumbarum wrote: Yes and if there is a place for sexism in sf, it's in 40k. Along with racism, facism, church of rotten corpse, mass murder and other really bad things. "Oh they're killing untold billions there but what is important is that there is no gender equality" sounds a bit dumb imo.
40k cannot reinforce the real life murder of billions because there is no such thing. It is purely fictional. But sexism is a real thing that can be and is reinforced by the tropes of pop culture.
Messrs. Stalin, Mao, Pol, and Hitler lacked only the scale, not the motivation or opportunity.
I'm not sure how any of those dudes is relevant to the real life conditions of 90s Britain or the contemporary circumstances of GW's current markets. I mean, no one can say "40k sends a dangerous message that the ongoing galactic apocalypse is okay." To clarify, this is because the galactic apocalypse is fictional. Sexism, by contrast, is an ongoing reality everywhere GW products are sold.
Although a perfect fit, it is already taken (title of the sequel of Shanghai Noon).
Ssh, don't explain the joke. >>
"That time I only loaded the cannon with powder. Next time, I will fill it with jewels and diamonds and they will cut you to shrebbons!" - Nogbad the Bad.
Wyzilla wrote:
And how recent was that? As old fluff is fairly irrelevant as of now, and the Black Library overwhelms it with current fluff.
Right. Name me some Space Marines (apart from Wolves, who I have already admitted do things differently) who were recruited above the age of twelve, please - and tell me a reference for how old they were recruited.
Apple fox wrote: I realy just wanted to do head swaps, and some cool modification but full armor.
That's much, MUCH better head swaps are probably really the best way to do FSMs anyway.
Defenatly, not short of skimpy armor in this hobby :p. Would probably ad much more than take away hehe.
Tankred was recruited as an young adult male. Also, children simply can't become Astrartes, as the initiation for many Chapters includes the killing of Salamanders, deathmatches are extremely common (and those we've seen have gigantic beasts thrown at them and participants already look like squat astartes), killing wolves, blood sports, etc. That and they're always reffered to as youths or adolescents in the Black Library, and never as children.
Where are you going to add armour to the Marines?! The only partially exposed parts are the insides of the elbows, the backs of the knees... oh, and I guess their 'soft midriffs'.
“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.”
Tankred was recruited as an young adult male. Also, children simply can't become Astrartes, as the initiation for many Chapters includes the killing of Salamanders, deathmatches are extremely common (and those we've seen have gigantic beasts thrown at them and participants already look like squat astartes), killing wolves, blood sports, etc. That and they're always reffered to as youths or adolescents in the Black Library, and never as children.
How the hell do you even format a quote that badly?!
*cough* Sorry, had to get that out of my system.
Who is Tankred? I haven't read every single novel, you know. I need a little more context than a single generic (if oddly spelled) name.
"Initiation" happens at the end of the alteration process, when the Marine joins the scout company - IE, when he's had all his enhancements except the Black Carapace and is about sixteen years old, which is the 'cusp of adulthood'.
I hate to break it to you, but 'adolescence' starts at eight for females and ten for males, roughly speaking. Adolescent cannot be confused with 'teenage'. Youth is another ambiguous term - a youth can be anything from an older child to a young adult (so anywhere between six and twenty years of age).
"That time I only loaded the cannon with powder. Next time, I will fill it with jewels and diamonds and they will cut you to shrebbons!" - Nogbad the Bad.
Tankred/Tancred was some random Grey Knight who fought alongside Alaric in the Grey Knights omnibus.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
Tankred was recruited as an young adult male. Also, children simply can't become Astrartes, as the initiation for many Chapters includes the killing of Salamanders, deathmatches are extremely common (and those we've seen have gigantic beasts thrown at them and participants already look like squat astartes), killing wolves, blood sports, etc. That and they're always reffered to as youths or adolescents in the Black Library, and never as children.
How the hell do you even format a quote that badly?!
*cough* Sorry, had to get that out of my system.
Who is Tankred? I haven't read every single novel, you know. I need a little more context than a single generic (if oddly spelled) name.
"Initiation" happens at the end of the alteration process, when the Marine joins the scout company - IE, when he's had all his enhancements except the Black Carapace and is about sixteen years old, which is the 'cusp of adulthood'.
I hate to break it to you, but 'adolescence' starts at eight for females and ten for males, roughly speaking. Adolescent cannot be confused with 'teenage'. Youth is another ambiguous term - a youth can be anything from an older child to a young adult (so anywhere between six and twenty years of age).
You're from Britain. In America, adolescent is interchangeable with late teenage years, same with youth. Thirteen and younger is typically refereed to as a child.
And Tankred's a former Black Templar Champion, turned Dreadnought, from Damnation Crusade.
“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.”
Maybe it is where YOU are in America, but that just means you're from one of those weird states
Also, GW is British.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/02/12 18:50:06
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
You're from Britain. In America, adolescent is interchangeable with late teenage years, same with youth. Thirteen and younger is typically refereed to as a child.
And Tankred's a former Black Templar Champion, turned Dreadnought, from Damnation Crusade.
I'm from Britain. So, with the exception of Sandy Mitchell, are the majority of Black Library authors. Hence why most Black Library novels refer to 'colours' and twelve-year-old 'adolescents'.
Are we really going to go into the Fallacy of Intent in another40k fluff thread?
"That time I only loaded the cannon with powder. Next time, I will fill it with jewels and diamonds and they will cut you to shrebbons!" - Nogbad the Bad.
dekinrie wrote: i think the problem is that to some male marines are special it signifies they aren't toy soldiers but war gaming miniatures much more respectable,
but to have female marines with all their womanly bits well that's a whole other kettle of fish their just toys and that's why people freak out or it could be a lot of gamers are in the closet and only want to play with manly men
while GW will never do it I wouldn't mind even retconing the sisters to have some augments.
Female Space Marines wouldn't have to be sexualised to work.
The problem with them is largely just that they go against the way people perceive the fluff. Retconning them in wouldn't immediately fix that... current players would still be against the idea due to it changing something that they see as a pivotal part of the fluff. It would take time for it to be accepted as the new black, in the same way that many players strongly resisted the change in Necrons from their original incarnation.
I don't understand why they don't simply retcon SoB into having augmentations or having a better ability to interface with and utilize their power armor.
The only way we can ever solve anything is to look in the mirror and find no enemy
The Blood Angels, who suffer from the 'curse'. Think about it...
The irony of the above quote is that when the old Witch Hunters codex was "updated" to the garbage WD Mini-Dex, I simply switched over to the Blood Angels codex to run my Sisters army.
PA and Bolters? Check!
Jump Infantry with Melta Pistols and Hand Flamers? Check!
Fast Flamer Razorbacks? Check!
The current BA codex is, frankly, Sisters of Battle writ as Space Marines. They even have their very own St. Celestine!
As to actual Female Space Marines, I still a old RT era "Gabs" Female Adventurer in Power Armor with Boltgun and Sword. She looks like a butt ugly female Space Marine Librarian (psyker sigil on her paldron).
SJ
“For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world.”
- Ephesians 6:12
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/02/12 19:06:09
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
Wyzilla wrote: You're from Britain. In America, adolescent is interchangeable with late teenage years, same with youth. Thirteen and younger is typically refereed to as a child.
.
To your comment on adolsecent being interchangeable with late teenage years in America, um...no it isn't. Adolescent is a mid aged child, not a late teen. Adolescence starts around 8-9 and through about 12 where the "teen" label gets applied at 13.
Of course this is neither here nor there with respect to the original topic, but your "American" position on age and the labels applied and when they are applied, does not jibe with my own "American" position on the subject.
Skriker
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/02/12 19:18:30
CSM 6k points CSM 4k points
CSM 4.5k points CSM 3.5k points
and Daemons 4k points each
Renegades 4k points
SM 4k points
SM 2.5k Points
3K 2.3k
EW, MW and LW British in Flames of War
Melissia wrote: jeffersonian: That would make Sisters less cool.
How so? Their fluff remained the same, I just got a functional army for awhile. Unless you meant Gabs. Fortunately, Gabs is not nor ever was a Sister of Battle, although she may end up as an Inquisitor, although I've been saying that for years.
SJ
“For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world.”
- Ephesians 6:12
Part of what makes Sisters so awesome is that they stand up to Space Marines, wiping out entire chapters, WITHOUT the augmentations of the Space Marines.
Just because you view Sisters as female space marine equivalents doesn't mean that everyone does.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/02/12 19:26:58
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
By the Throne of Terra! This thread is full of the vilest heresies imaginable!
There are no females in the honoured Adeptus Astartes, nor can there ever be.
The God-Emperor, our undying Lord, has specifically decreed that all Astartes shall be male. Female Astartes are heresy and to immediately purged.
*Asks innocently*
Didn't said God-Emperor also decree that there would be no worship of gods, and rationality would be the guide.....not superstition?
-------------------------------------------------------
"He died because he had no honor. He had no honor and the Emperor was watching."
Tankred was recruited as an young adult male. Also, children simply can't become Astrartes, as the initiation for many Chapters includes the killing of Salamanders, deathmatches are extremely common (and those we've seen have gigantic beasts thrown at them and participants already look like squat astartes), killing wolves, blood sports, etc. That and they're always reffered to as youths or adolescents in the Black Library, and never as children.
How the hell do you even format a quote that badly?!
*cough* Sorry, had to get that out of my system.
Who is Tankred? I haven't read every single novel, you know. I need a little more context than a single generic (if oddly spelled) name.
"Initiation" happens at the end of the alteration process, when the Marine joins the scout company - IE, when he's had all his enhancements except the Black Carapace and is about sixteen years old, which is the 'cusp of adulthood'.
I hate to break it to you, but 'adolescence' starts at eight for females and ten for males, roughly speaking. Adolescent cannot be confused with 'teenage'. Youth is another ambiguous term - a youth can be anything from an older child to a young adult (so anywhere between six and twenty years of age).
You're from Britain. In America, adolescent is interchangeable with late teenage years, same with youth. Thirteen and younger is typically refereed to as a child.
And Tankred's a former Black Templar Champion, turned Dreadnought, from Damnation Crusade.
Ah, no it isn't. An "adolescent" is any child who has begun puberty but has not yet reached the age of majority.
So... roughly 10 to 17, but its most-frequent colloquial use is to refer to "tweeners" (that is age 11-12) and young teens (13-15).
Most importantly, though, the British use of it is the most important, as both GW and BL are British concerns, and most, if not all, of the BL authors are also British.
It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised.
Melissia wrote: Part of what makes Sisters so awesome is that they stand up to Space Marines, wiping out entire chapters, WITHOUT the augmentations of the Space Marines.
Just because you view Sisters as female space marine equivalents doesn't mean that everyone does.
I don't understand why they don't simply retcon SoB into having augmentations or having a better ability to interface with and utilize their power armor.
Just ending it now before there is anymore confusion.
And yes, I agree. Decking Sisters out in augments would reduce some of their appeal. They are meant to use their faith to be en par with Space Marines. That is what makes them unique, and giving them enhancements would undermine that. They would then just be female space marines, and we already have enough variants of those.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2014/02/12 19:46:18
What I have
~4100
~1660
Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!
A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble
Melissia wrote: Part of what makes Sisters so awesome is that they stand up to Space Marines, wiping out entire chapters, WITHOUT the augmentations of the Space Marines.
Just because you view Sisters as female space marine equivalents doesn't mean that everyone does.
Now, now, Melissia, you may have forgotten, but I started playing Sisters when they first came out in 2nd Ed, and my entire Sister army was a 2nd Ed army played with 3rd Ed rules until that thrice damned WD Mini-Dex forced my hand. And while I no longer field my Sisters as BAngels, that is because I stopped fielding them all together. The new Digi-Dex is still garbage, in my opinion, and I await either a real codex in the distant future or a valid reason to use the Digi-Dex.
As to Female Space Marines, I see no issues with it. Game play remains the same, no mechanics change, only style and theme are impacted.
SJ
“For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world.”
- Ephesians 6:12
Lore gets massively changed, and that's far more important to me.
Turning something that is cooler than Space Marines in to something that is just another brand of Space Marines makes it less cool
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/02/12 19:49:08
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
head swaps are probably really the best way to do FSMs anyway.
CSM 6k points 
CSM 4k points
CSM 4.5k points 
Renegades 4k points
SM 4k points
SM 2.5k Points
3K 
2.3k
8.200 
3.300 
3.100 
5.500 
3.200 
3.000
