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 Swastakowey wrote:
No, just dont be a pain about it. I find even with a rubbish eldar list my army still puts up a tough fight and I feel bad a lot but its just a really power codex i think. Either way you will find out whats too good and whats not and you can work out how to not be "that guy". Its all in the attitude really (and you seem in the right mindset.) so dont worry about it.

yeah this. One has to try real hard and take realy the lowest of the low with eldar , no ally , no divination , no titan and only then is your army ok to play against for others, but only because it is realy bad and probably not fun to play with . While playing eldar or going with their codex I sometimes think that Phil Kelly plays himself and that he wrote a codex for his own army . In 5th he wrote how baron is awesome , when for DE armies in 5th he was maybe good , but far from must have . For eldar armies in 6th he is like the first HQ you always take alongside a seer.

The kicker is, though, if you are new to a group, and bring in what is seen as being the latest 'broken' army, you will be seen as a bandwagoner. The same thing happened to me when i got back into the hobby, and after buying a load of new necron units, and painting them, i got called out for choosing a broken army. i responded by taking all my newcrons off the table, replacing them with originals, and since the monolith i had wasn't built, i had just happened to take the monolith i scratch built before the model was even released (a very bad hurried job for a tournament back in the day!
some people just need to have it rubbed in their faces for effect that your models are in a lot of cases older than they are!

Being old does not entitle someone to anything and the game play does not change because someone is blasting you out of the table with serpents he scratch build in 4th ed .

Makumba wrote:

Being old does not entitle someone to anything and the game play does not change because someone is blasting you out of the table with serpents he scratch build in 4th ed .

So, if i've played an army because i like the army, for years, and played it even when it was bottom tier, and have a model collection that is decades old to prove it. if i play what is seen by the internet as being broken, i am suddenly TFG?
So if one week an army has a rubbish codex, and the next a decent one, a player suddenly goes from being 'ok' to being a netlister?

madtankbloke wrote:

Makumba wrote:

Being old does not entitle someone to anything and the game play does not change because someone is blasting you out of the table with serpents he scratch build in 4th ed .

So, if i've played an army because i like the army, for years, and played it even when it was bottom tier, and have a model collection that is decades old to prove it. if i play what is seen by the internet as being broken, i am suddenly TFG?
So if one week an army has a rubbish codex, and the next a decent one, a player suddenly goes from being 'ok' to being a netlister?

To some people, yes. Let me clarify I think those people are wrong.

But that's why I've always insisted people just play what they like and come to a reasonable compromise with their opponent if the power levels are severely out of alignment. Frankly, I'd run as many grav tanks and serpents as possible in an Eldar list, because mechanized stuff appeals to me. If my opponent wanted me to tune down my list, I'd also ask they tune up theirs as best as possible and meet halfway.

Besides, someone can always come to an independent conclusion of a good list without finding it on the internet. Its not like you need a rocket-physics-mathstrology degree to figure out what's good and what stinks in these codices.

But again, it all boils down to playing what you want. Being a 'TFG' is not a matter of list content, but the attitude of the player.

madtankbloke wrote:

Makumba wrote:

Being old does not entitle someone to anything and the game play does not change because someone is blasting you out of the table with serpents he scratch build in 4th ed .

So, if i've played an army because i like the army, for years, and played it even when it was bottom tier, and have a model collection that is decades old to prove it. if i play what is seen by the internet as being broken, i am suddenly TFG?
So if one week an army has a rubbish codex, and the next a decent one, a player suddenly goes from being 'ok' to being a netlister?

Don't know what a TFG is . But am assuming it is an insult of some sort. From an eldar opponents point of view , there is no difference if the eldar army is played by someone with 2ed models. 3ed models,, 4th ed models , 5th ed models or 6th models , how long he plays and how skilled he is , unless he brought a realy bad army full of banshees and melee guardian squads.

If my opponent wanted me to tune down my list, I'd also ask they tune up theirs as best as possible and meet halfway.

What would be awesome , if only eldar armies that are toned down , were better then some codex tournament armies.
And eldar player doesn't have to take 6 wave serpents and a seerstar with baron to win . He can take 2-3 , big blobs of guardians , some walkers , maybe even a WK for which he suddenly has points for and he may win against full blown non eldar tournament lists from most army books.

Makumba wrote:

What would be awesome , if only eldar armies that are toned down , were better then some codex tournament armies.
And eldar player doesn't have to take 6 wave serpents and a seerstar with baron to win . He can take 2-3 , big blobs of guardians , some walkers , maybe even a WK for which he suddenly has points for and he may win against full blown non eldar tournament lists from most army books.

Then what's your solution? Tell everyone not to play Eldar?

That's my point; you can't dictate to others what to play or use. There's a certain amount of compromise both sides will be willing to give to make a gaming group happy, but you can't just tell a whole group of them to just not use a certain codex.

 Blacksails wrote:

Makumba wrote:

What would be awesome , if only eldar armies that are toned down , were better then some codex tournament armies.
And eldar player doesn't have to take 6 wave serpents and a seerstar with baron to win . He can take 2-3 , big blobs of guardians , some walkers , maybe even a WK for which he suddenly has points for and he may win against full blown non eldar tournament lists from most army books.

Then what's your solution? Tell everyone not to play Eldar?

That's my point; you can't dictate to others what to play or use. There's a certain amount of compromise both sides will be willing to give to make a gaming group happy, but you can't just tell a whole group of them to just not use a certain codex.

thats where attitude comes into play. If they have bad attitude they dont try make the game better for all involved and then thats when they turn into a jerk. Works both ways though.

 Swastakowey wrote:

thats where attitude comes into play. If they have bad attitude they dont try make the game better for all involved and then thats when they turn into a jerk. Works both ways though.

Right, but that's exactly my point. Being a poor gamer isn't determined by your list, but rather how you behave.

I kind of think it should go unsaid and generally try and assume it of everyone here. Walking into a store with middle fingers blazing and throw down an army of 7 wave serpents and spouting internet memes will surely make you a favoured opponent. Granted, even if you did all that with the most awful ratling, rough rider and ogryn IG army in existence, people would still hate you.

 FinecastPraisesNurgle wrote:
If you're worried about being TFG, you're not TFG.

Quoted for Truth

Run what you like, and come to a compromise with your opponent regarding list strength

All the Eldar players who slaughter me are polite and thank me for testing their list. It still gets old.

 monders wrote:
My first love has always been Eldar, so last year I picked up the new book, dusted off my old 2nd ed metal collection and got a BOX FULL of metal Eldar off a mate. Nice.

I got as far as base coating a handful of old favourites then sort of went on a hiatus.

Now, having had a nightmare playing WHFB recently, I’ve decided to get back to 40k. I excitedly searched for ‘Eldar 40k’ to see what’s what, and was pretty dismayed to see so much pishing and whining about how ‘broken’ they are.

From what I can gather, some unsporting types spam the Wave Serpent. But doesn’t every army have a vehicle/unit/weapon that gets spammed to feck?

I’m not a waac or power gamer (far from it, I’m rubbish) and this is pretty demoralising. I was hoping to start going to the NWGC for a few practice games but I don’t want to turn up with THAT ARMY and be THAT GUY.

Don't sweat, just be who you are. The codex is very good, no helping that. I play C:SM and played a non competitive list and had a run for my money, but barely won due to dice rolls. My army wasn't competitive either. All in all, don't feel scared, Eldar are good.

 monders wrote:
20 DA (2 x 10), 6 DR (2 x 3), 10 SS (2 x 5), 7 WS (with exarch), 5 FD, 1 Wraithlord.

That’s not so bad is it? I still need an HQ but I think that seems a fair little amount. I will eventually be adding Jet Bikes.

I don’t particularly care what strangers think, but in a social atmosphere it’s good to feel a part of it. Especially in our seedy little corner of humanity!

While not competitive, your list seems ok, nothing that i would complain of WAACness if i were to play that.

 monders wrote:
TL;DR – Will I be hated for playing Eldar?!

Thank you for reading. Apologies for length.

Unless you act like a and be TFG, you should be fine. Don't let the ultra-competitive nature of the 40k online community make you feel guilty.

What would be really funny is if I was seen as a bandwagoning TFG for showing up with Eldar, when a good chunk of my army is at least as old as many current players.

I *think* even my Forgeworld Wave Serpents are 10+ years old as they were bought when FW first started selling Eldar stuff.

Honestly, no matter what you run, you will possibly run into some halfwit that hates on your army simply because it is Eldar. I get the same thing as a Tau player, and it wont matter to them whether you just bought the army or have had it for years. It's actually pretty rare, though, the vast majority of people are reasonable folks who judge you on your merits rather than some idiotic internet theory. A lot of times these kinds of people don't even know WHY the armies are considered powerful, just that there is some hype about it and they jump on board. Some people are just negative and get off on cutting down tall poppies even when they don't actually understand the cause they are opposing. It's not a behaviour restricted to 40k. You don't need to think about these people as they aren't worth your time.

So play on, and don't worry about potential haters. They aren't common and even if you do run into one, you probably don't want to play them anyway, no matter what army you had. The best thing to do is what all reasonable players do - get a feel for the group you play with, and build lists to match. Don't go full optimisation if your opponents just muck around with random units, go for it if they're all tournament fiends. Easy

I hope this passes soon. I'm sick and tired of talking about this KIND of thing.

The anger being directed at PEOPLE overthe rules they didn't write is... getting old.

We gotta' come to some kind of truce. GW has to recognize the climate out here is getting ugly.

 Jancoran wrote:
I hope this passes soon. I'm sick and tired of talking about this KIND of thing.

The anger being directed at PEOPLE overthe rules they didn't write is... getting old.

We gotta' come to some kind of truce. GW has to recognize the climate out here is getting ugly.

It still has a lot to do with the people abusing them though. But yes for most its not their fault.

Makumba wrote:

What would be awesome , if only eldar armies that are toned down , were better then some codex tournament armies.
And eldar player doesn't have to take 6 wave serpents and a seerstar with baron to win . He can take 2-3 , big blobs of guardians , some walkers , maybe even a WK for which he suddenly has points for and he may win against full blown non eldar tournament lists from most army books.

Have to disagree, outside the classic tourney builds the Eldar army is not that hard to beat, their high end is far and away better thanks to Serpents. Ignoring the fact that aside from the guardian blobs those are the support units you see in tourney Eldar lists outside the Serpents and Seer they are not hard to put down. They will hit you hard but you are talking about AV10 and T3 5+ save models, if your army can't take those off the table in handfuls you may want to rethink your list. A casual Eldar list can still skip the 1-2 stinkers and still be at a significant disadvantage compared to a true tourney list from other races.

Jancoran wrote:We gotta' come to some kind of truce. GW has to recognize the climate out here is getting ugly.

Thing is that's nothing to do with GW, that's the toxic community. It's gotten to the point where you can't have a conversation here without personal attacks flying and that's what kills the game, the community. How a game that at it's core is supposed to be a fun social experience has developed such a community is beyond me but hey ho. Frankly I think the forum would be better split into "tourney" and "casual" then it's clear what everyone is talking about and the two warring groups can enjoy the hobby without the other muddying the waters.
It smacks of giving up but at the moment I think it's the only solution where everyone wins.

Some very well reasoned responses to this, thanks to everyone for taking the time to read and reply.

As a result, I'm not worried about turning up to a gaming club/night with my ancient metal Eldar and getting some games in!

If someone brings their own cheese, that's fine - If I lose, meh. I'll come back next week a bit smarter and I'll try again.

Cheers!

Ha, we are in a similar position, as we're building up Eldar after being given some models. But people in our group have sympathy for us, as we play tyranids and Orks. Gotta confess, we might build up a 3-Wave Serpent/seerstar list for the one (lovely) guy who plays a net croissant-spam list.

Otherwise I would relax, and paint your army nicely. Speaking strictly for ourselves, we're happy playing against any army that looks good.

Have to disagree, outside the classic tourney builds the Eldar army is not that hard to beat, their high end is far and away better thanks to Serpents.

With what another armies tournament list ? yeah , in general when someone builds a bad army and the other one has a good one , then the second one has a bigger chance to win . But if two people build what ever stands for non tournament lists and even if the eldar doesn't take 6 serpent , his list will be better . Eldar have 0 bad troops , all are fast and very shoty , they have a few realy bad melee units , but all of them are elite so even if they take 3 of those , it still aren't enough to make the list realy suck . They have a ton of good hvy support units , even the bad ones are not realy bad just others are much better eg. Falcon or Dark reapers vs anything else. On the other hand an IG , ork , sob , sm etc army not build in a proper way will get wooped hard by the elder . Unless of course it is some sort of a tailor list SM taking 3 thunderfires , whirlwinds and mass drop pods with flamers .

Then what's your solution? Tell everyone not to play Eldar?

There is no solution . Hate or dislike are not something you can control . Sure you can build up social norms , where in face to face situations you don't spit at an eldar players feet . To me it is simple , If someone pays X for his army and has to compet against someone who also pays X for his army , and no matter what he does his opponents army is just plain better , then the first guy is not going to be happy about it . Example? I would like to play a WWI style IG army , but I can't because it does not work on the table . I don't want to use flyers , because they are hard to transport and cost a lot . I can't do that . The IG codex both in 5th and in 6th is pre build for me , there is a very small and limited number of units I can use . The eldar player has no such problem . Also old eldar players that ask , if others will hate them for playing their army seem strange . Eldar were the most powerful or one of the most powerful army in all editions , save for half of 5th ed , from what I have read about them .

Makumba wrote:

Have to disagree, outside the classic tourney builds the Eldar army is not that hard to beat, their high end is far and away better thanks to Serpents.

With what another armies tournament list ? yeah , in general when someone builds a bad army and the other one has a good one , then the second one has a bigger chance to win . But if two people build what ever stands for non tournament lists and even if the eldar doesn't take 6 serpent , his list will be better . Eldar have 0 bad troops , all are fast and very shoty , they have a few realy bad melee units , but all of them are elite so even if they take 3 of those , it still aren't enough to make the list realy suck . They have a ton of good hvy support units , even the bad ones are not realy bad just others are much better eg. Falcon or Dark reapers vs anything else. On the other hand an IG , ork , sob , sm etc army not build in a proper way will get wooped hard by the elder . Unless of course it is some sort of a tailor list SM taking 3 thunderfires , whirlwinds and mass drop pods with flamers .

Then what's your solution? Tell everyone not to play Eldar?

There is no solution . Hate or dislike are not something you can control . Sure you can build up social norms , where in face to face situations you don't spit at an eldar players feet . To me it is simple , If someone pays X for his army and has to compet against someone who also pays X for his army , and no matter what he does his opponents army is just plain better , then the first guy is not going to be happy about it . Example? I would like to play a WWI style IG army , but I can't because it does not work on the table . I don't want to use flyers , because they are hard to transport and cost a lot . I can't do that . The IG codex both in 5th and in 6th is pre build for me , there is a very small and limited number of units I can use . The eldar player has no such problem . Also old eldar players that ask , if others will hate them for playing their army seem strange . Eldar were the most powerful or one of the most powerful army in all editions , save for half of 5th ed , from what I have read about them .

Eldar are squishy. they have a few tough units, like wraithguard and a buffed up seer council, but otherwise, guardians are squishy, aspect warriors are squishy. the toughest non WG units like jetbikes, are no tougher than a space marine. so if you cant pick an army that can mow down eldar in droves you are doing something completely wrong.
You don't need to tailor an army to beat Eldar. a decent TAC list can do the job. having a bit of terrain helps, obviously, but its not as if wave serpents have magically become some un-killable boogieman

I also don't see why you are blaming the enemy for limits you put on yourself. Imperial guard are one of the better armies. with vendettas and melta vets you can quite easily blast wave serpent spam off the board. if you choose not to take them, that is your choice, not your opponents.
If you want to have a WW1 type army, why not look at the death korps army:

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/d/dkksiegelist.pdf

A horribly broken army in many respects, take a look. its forge world, but its officially legal now in normal 40k

Imperial guard are one of the better armies. with vendettas and melta vets you can quite easily blast wave serpent spam off the board

Ok let say I do get 4 vendettas up on the same turn , they don't get shot down with interceptor/skyfire , that the shields on the serpents are not up and I blow up all 4 of them . now my 4 units of vetts are in the middle a pseudo rending army that can 1> multi charge them with a seer councile 2> shot them of the table with their army removing most of my troops .

so if you cant pick an army that can mow down eldar in droves you are doing something completely wrong.

yeah just let me down those ++2 re-rollable seers+baron+locks while everything else is in a serpent on reserv . Once I kill of those , I have the eldar on his back pleading for mercy .

If you want to have a WW1 type army, why not look at the death korps army:

FW is not legal here .

Makumba wrote:

Imperial guard are one of the better armies. with vendettas and melta vets you can quite easily blast wave serpent spam off the board

Ok let say I do get 4 vendettas up on the same turn , they don't get shot down with interceptor/skyfire , that the shields on the serpents are not up and I blow up all 4 of them . now my 4 units of vetts are in the middle a pseudo rending army that can 1> multi charge them with a seer councile 2> shot them of the table with their army removing most of my troops .

If you want to have a WW1 type army, why not look at the death korps army:

FW is not legal here .

It seems to me that you have decided that eldar are unbeatable, and that is that! good luck to you sir.

 Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:
Ha, we are in a similar position, as we're building up Eldar after being given some models. But people in our group have sympathy for us, as we play tyranids and Orks. Gotta confess, we might build up a 3-Wave Serpent/seerstar list for the one (lovely) guy who plays a net croissant-spam list.


Otherwise I would relax, and paint your army nicely. Speaking strictly for ourselves, we're happy playing against any army that looks good.

Niiiiice!

I started a Dire Avenger the other evening - well, started again. I'd originally undercoated with AP Bone, applied a brown wash then dry brushed with Ushabti. I thought, you know what, these old boys deserve a bit of love, so I'm going back actually painting the armour plates, taking care with the 'elmets and such. I want to be proud of these, not just getting them to TT standard. I might even... HIGHLIGHT THEM

The Aspect Warriors (apart from the spiders and reapers, for a reason I can't remember) are all in bone armour, with their helmets having more traditional colouring. I can't find a nice green for the scorpions though. I was considering black, but I'm using that for wraith construct heads and vehicle canopies...

madtankbloke wrote:

Makumba wrote:

Have to disagree, outside the classic tourney builds the Eldar army is not that hard to beat, their high end is far and away better thanks to Serpents.

With what another armies tournament list ? yeah , in general when someone builds a bad army and the other one has a good one , then the second one has a bigger chance to win . But if two people build what ever stands for non tournament lists and even if the eldar doesn't take 6 serpent , his list will be better . Eldar have 0 bad troops , all are fast and very shoty , they have a few realy bad melee units , but all of them are elite so even if they take 3 of those , it still aren't enough to make the list realy suck . They have a ton of good hvy support units , even the bad ones are not realy bad just others are much better eg. Falcon or Dark reapers vs anything else. On the other hand an IG , ork , sob , sm etc army not build in a proper way will get wooped hard by the elder . Unless of course it is some sort of a tailor list SM taking 3 thunderfires , whirlwinds and mass drop pods with flamers .

Then what's your solution? Tell everyone not to play Eldar?

There is no solution . Hate or dislike are not something you can control . Sure you can build up social norms , where in face to face situations you don't spit at an eldar players feet . To me it is simple , If someone pays X for his army and has to compet against someone who also pays X for his army , and no matter what he does his opponents army is just plain better , then the first guy is not going to be happy about it . Example? I would like to play a WWI style IG army , but I can't because it does not work on the table . I don't want to use flyers , because they are hard to transport and cost a lot . I can't do that . The IG codex both in 5th and in 6th is pre build for me , there is a very small and limited number of units I can use . The eldar player has no such problem . Also old eldar players that ask , if others will hate them for playing their army seem strange . Eldar were the most powerful or one of the most powerful army in all editions , save for half of 5th ed , from what I have read about them .

Eldar are squishy. they have a few tough units, like wraithguard and a buffed up seer council, but otherwise, guardians are squishy, aspect warriors are squishy. the toughest non WG units like jetbikes, are no tougher than a space marine. so if you cant pick an army that can mow down eldar in droves you are doing something completely wrong.
You don't need to tailor an army to beat Eldar. a decent TAC list can do the job. having a bit of terrain helps, obviously, but its not as if wave serpents have magically become some un-killable boogieman

Wave serpents are awesome and simply OP - in 1's and 2's they can be tolerable but en masse simply too much.

They have a brilliant and hugely effective defensive system that mean they don't usually suffer penalties to their overpowered weapons or indeed blow up, but they almost always confer that on their passengers which means whilst a normal balanced DT can be stunned etc and so make their passengers useless if they have to bail out - not the case here.

They have awesome firepower for their "supposed" role - the "in extremis only" Serpent "shield" gun is just insane especially with a 60" range and ignore cover - and is devastating against most other DT such as Rhinos and Immolators. Then there are their other guns......

They are fast skimmers so really useful and get a jink save on top of their Shield, oh and Spirit stones if they really have to ensure that their passengers are unaffected by pretty much anything

To put the final nail in the coffin GW made them the only DT for Eldar so spamming is encouraged - brilliant.

Now granted this is GW's fault but lets not pretend that Wave Serpents, especially in numbers, are anything other than pure cheese

Eldar are not "squishy" when they are all inside AV 12 fast skimmers. The Eldar and Tau are similar in that they have ways to make their "weaknesses" not matter at all.

A little off topic, but I think the idea will apply...

If you game with a group of guys why not make a handicap chart? Make it specific to person and army, hang it up at he club(if owner agrees) on like a big white board. Every time Player A with Army X beats Player B with Army Y, Player B with Army Y gets a 5% points bonus the next time they play. Player B might get up to +30% before the games become challenging for both players.

It also takes into account that Player A might just be more of a veteran then Player B, but eventually the games should become more competitive. All I know is that my games are much more enjoyable when they come down to the wire, blow outs are boring.

Martel732 wrote:
Eldar are not "squishy" when they are all inside AV 12 fast skimmers. The Eldar and Tau are similar in that they have ways to make their "weaknesses" not matter at all.

But Makumba is talking about a non-serpent spam list and saying they still win against other races tourney builds, which means that those Eldar *aren't* in AV12 skimmers, they are on foot. Which means they are T3 with a 4+ or 5+ save if your opponent is using Guardians or Avengers and that is very squishy.

They even mention blobs of Guardians, that terror of the plains, a unit with a 12" range, T3 and a 5+ save with LD8...

Putting a block of 20 wounds worth of that resilience in the ground at greater than 12" is really not a difficult task and will account for almost 200pts of your enemies force.

I would agree that that build is quite vulnerable against other Xeno lists, but I think it can actually compete against marines due to marines' lack of firepower. (Due to lower model count and crappy Imperial weapons) I'm assuming no list tailoring, because the heavy bolter is indeed bad news for footdar, but the heavy bolter is so terrible in a TAC list, the Eldar never need to factor it into their game plan.

Makumba wrote:

Imperial guard are one of the better armies. with vendettas and melta vets you can quite easily blast wave serpent spam off the board

Ok let say I do get 4 vendettas up on the same turn , they don't get shot down with interceptor/skyfire , that the shields on the serpents are not up and I blow up all 4 of them . now my 4 units of vetts are in the middle a pseudo rending army that can 1> multi charge them with a seer councile 2> shot them of the table with their army removing most of my troops .

so if you cant pick an army that can mow down eldar in droves you are doing something completely wrong.

yeah just let me down those ++2 re-rollable seers+baron+locks while everything else is in a serpent on reserv . Once I kill of those , I have the eldar on his back pleading for mercy .

If you want to have a WW1 type army, why not look at the death korps army:

FW is not legal here .

I still don't see what's so damn scary about a bunch of T3 models with 4+ saves.

Honestly, just take some heavy flamers and ram them up the enemies pointy-eared, pansy little heinies.

Only Eldar things that have ever given me any trouble are Support Weapon Platforms, and that's because T7 is a PITA.

If only the Eldar player would cooperate.

Martel732 wrote:
I would agree that that build is quite vulnerable against other Xeno lists, but I think it can actually compete against marines due to marines' lack of firepower. (Due to lower model count and crappy Imperial weapons) I'm assuming no list tailoring, because the heavy bolter is indeed bad news for footdar, but the heavy bolter is so terrible in a TAC list, the Eldar never need to factor it into their game plan.

They don't need Heavy Bolters.

A single bolter round kills 0.44 Guardians. The very common Space Marine bike lists will dance around any basic shuriken weapon range mowing them down, even basic tacticals will outgun Guardians point for point and sustain virtually 0 casualties once the Serpent is out of the equation because they wil put 3 rounds into them per marine before the Eldar even close to range. Shuriken weapon users will generally get 1 shot before they are in a world of hurt from double tap/assault and Guardians will often not even get that if your opponent is pre-measuring because of how debilitatingly short ranged their guns are.

The Serpent and Jetseers are the only thing propping that army up on it's pedestal, without them it's just another codex with some good, bad and meh units.

At this point I'd love to see both of them nerfed into the ground just to watch Eldar plummet out of competitive play.