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 Nicorex wrote:

 Therion wrote:

 thenoobbomb wrote:
So, opinions on that you can do a Household as an army?

It's great stuff. You'll still need some anti-air and other fillers, so in normal sized games like 1.85K it'll be very hard to fit in a 4th Knight. Three will work though.

Actually if you use the Knight Errant you can get 5 in a 1850 list.

I think he meant without having glaring, easy to exploit weakness, not that it wouldn't fit point wise.

So Imperium of Man gets another toy that Chaos miraculously has no access to. I am thrilled... *yawns*

 Kosake wrote:
So Imperium of Man gets another toy that Chaos miraculously has no access to. I am thrilled... *yawns*

That's what they get for going along with Horus's temper tantrum.

 Agent_Tremolo wrote:

 Therion wrote:
They also expect that their Seer Councils can just fight them in close combat. That's just not going to cut it vs Knights, since all of that dies in close combat and the 2 lances won't be enough against a superheavy with a 4+ shield.

The Ion shield's 4++ doesn't work in close combat, it's clearly readable on the leaked pics. You still have to contend with a D-strenght CCW that probably swings at initiative 4, though.

It also has S10 Hammer of Wrath, and as a super-heavy walker it will do D3 stomps in combat. Stomps are blast markers. First one has to touch the Knight, second one only has to touch the first blast marker, and so on. Roll of 1 for the blast does nothing, 2-5 is a S6 AP4 hit for all, and a 6 removes everything under it from play. Not so bad being a super-heavy walker afterall in comparison to being a puny monstrous creature?

 Therion wrote:

 thenoobbomb wrote:
So, opinions on that you can do a Household as an army?

It's great stuff. You'll still need some anti-air and other fillers, so in normal sized games like 1.85K it'll be very hard to fit in a 4th Knight. Three will work though.

I like the way you typed 1.85K which is actually more characters than 1850.

 Kosake wrote:
So Imperium of Man gets another toy that Chaos miraculously has no access to. I am thrilled... *yawns*

We don't know that for sure, so don't get all up in a tizzy just yet.

 Therion wrote:

 Agent_Tremolo wrote:

 Therion wrote:
They also expect that their Seer Councils can just fight them in close combat. That's just not going to cut it vs Knights, since all of that dies in close combat and the 2 lances won't be enough against a superheavy with a 4+ shield.

The Ion shield's 4++ doesn't work in close combat, it's clearly readable on the leaked pics. You still have to contend with a D-strenght CCW that probably swings at initiative 4, though.

It also has S10 Hammer of Wrath, and as a super-heavy walker it will do D3 stomps in combat. Stomps are blast markers. First one has to touch the Knight, second one only has to touch the first blast marker, and so on. Roll of 1 for the blast does nothing, 2-5 is a S6 AP4 hit for all, and a 6 removes everything under it from play.

Subsequent blasts have to be within 3" of the first. Conceivably it can stomp things more than 12" away!

Not sure why people are thinking that Strength D CC attacks "kill everything".. It has 3 attacks, so it kills 2-3 per turn which is HARDLY very dangerous for 375 pts. Seer council could reliably kill this thing in CC pretty fast since as a walker it has no armor save and 6 wounds (HP) or less if it gets pen'd. Stomp can be great sure,b ut it can be useless more often than not especially against real CC units. 3 guys with melta bombs will wreck this thing very very fast. Again Strength D isn't very dangerous if its on a CC weapon.

I play Tau....I don't like this thing. I can't think of an easy way to kill it! It all comes back to that 4+ invulnerable save. I guess I'll have to try flanking them from 2 sides with melta battlesuits or something. Might be enough to make me actually start deep striking them again.

If I start seeing them then it will probably dramatically speed up my decision to buy that Tigershark AX-1-0. Hmmm...3 barracudas and one of those in the Lord of War slot supported by lots of deep striking battlesuits. Tau close air support cadre anyone?

Anyway, back on topic.

 dementedwombat wrote:
I play Tau....I don't like this thing. I can't think of an easy way to kill it! It all comes back to that 4+ invulnerable save. I guess I'll have to try flanking them from 2 sides with melta battlesuits or something. Might be enough to make me actually start deep striking them again.

If I start seeing them then it will probably dramatically speed up my decision to buy that Tigershark AX-1-0. Hmmm...3 barracudas and one of those in the Lord of War slot supported by lots of deep striking battlesuits. Tau close air support cadre anyone?

Anyway, back on topic.

?? It's only armor 13 with 6 Hp that means it's the same as killing 2 necron vehicles generally, just because it's a super heavy doesn't mean it's difficult to kill..sheesh. Just spam missiles at it and bring it down with glances or yeah meltas work, or riptides or anything really..If you can't 2 necron vehicles as Tau then there is a serious issue going on.

It's only a 4+ invul :p that's pretty common

The rules are decent, not OP, and I like the inclusion of a Str D CC weapon. I must say that the Leviathan is a "cooler" looking model and probably more "poseable" than the GW Knights.

As a Chaos player, I'm trying to figure out how to fit one of these into my army, will it be part of an allied attachment (dark mechanicum?), or do you think that a Chaos version will be available via dataslate?

 Kirasu wrote:
Not sure why people are thinking that Strength D CC attacks "kill everything".. It has 3 attacks, so it kills 2-3 per turn which is HARDLY very dangerous for 375 pts. Seer council could reliably kill this thing in CC pretty fast since as a walker it has no armor save and 6 wounds (HP) or less if it gets pen'd. Stomp can be great sure,b ut it can be useless more often than not especially against real CC units. 3 guys with melta bombs will wreck this thing very very fast. Again Strength D isn't very dangerous if its on a CC weapon.

If the enemy has units that can contend with 4 D attacks on the charge, a S10 HoW and D3 blast stomps that have the potential to auto-remove everything, what you do is just deploy your 3 Knights in the middle. They'll all charge the same unit, ensuring it's utter destruction. A Baron Jetseer Council is worth 1000 points fully loaded, so charging it with 3 Knights is adequate. As far as melta bombs on suicide squads go, I haven't seen those played in years, but your mileage may vary. Nobody is disputing the fact that you can't kill Knights in many ways. What I'm saying atleast is that they're a hard counter to death star units, and due to their versatility will probably be worth their points in many lists. Only time will tell what the optimal number to play will be.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Kosake wrote:
So Imperium of Man gets another toy that Chaos miraculously has no access to. I am thrilled... *yawns*

We don't know that for sure, so don't get all up in a tizzy just yet.

Even if they were available for Chaos I wouldn't be thrilled. Bringing superheavies to the table seems just wrong to me outside of appocalypse. It can be fun for a round of "kill the superheavy" where one side must hunt the other's prize toy before it has a chance to rip them appart but otherwise I love my 40k centered around a couple of squads of infantry and the odd tank or some walkers to spice things up.

 Therion wrote:

 Kirasu wrote:
Not sure why people are thinking that Strength D CC attacks "kill everything".. It has 3 attacks, so it kills 2-3 per turn which is HARDLY very dangerous for 375 pts. Seer council could reliably kill this thing in CC pretty fast since as a walker it has no armor save and 6 wounds (HP) or less if it gets pen'd. Stomp can be great sure,b ut it can be useless more often than not especially against real CC units. 3 guys with melta bombs will wreck this thing very very fast. Again Strength D isn't very dangerous if its on a CC weapon.

If the enemy has units that can contend with 4 D attacks on the charge, a S10 HoW and D3 blast stomps that have the potential to auto-remove everything, what you do is just deploy your 3 Knights in the middle. They'll all charge the same unit, ensuring it's utter destruction. A Baron Jetseer Council is worth 1000 points fully loaded, so charging it with 3 Knights is adequate. As far as melta bombs on suicide squads go, I haven't seen those played in years, but your mileage may vary. Nobody is disputing the fact that you can't kill Knights in many ways. What I'm saying atleast is that they're a hard counter to death star units, and due to their versatility will probably be worth their points in many lists. Only time will tell what the optimal number to play will be.

Haywire wyches will make a laugh of it IF you can get them into combat. Thanks for clearling up the stomp attacks also. As I said, I haven't had any reason to buy escalation yet.

 Kosake wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Kosake wrote:
So Imperium of Man gets another toy that Chaos miraculously has no access to. I am thrilled... *yawns*

We don't know that for sure, so don't get all up in a tizzy just yet.

Even if they were available for Chaos I wouldn't be thrilled. Bringing superheavies to the table seems just wrong to me outside of appocalypse. It can be fun for a round of "kill the superheavy" where one side must hunt the other's prize toy before it has a chance to rip them appart but otherwise I love my 40k centered around a couple of squads of infantry and the odd tank or some walkers to spice things up.

Yeah, I don't really WANT superheavies to shake up the meta, because by "shake up" it actually means "take heaps of anti-tank and play a game of roll dice at it and hope it goes away".

 sub-zero wrote:

As a Chaos player, I'm trying to figure out how to fit one of these into my army, will it be part of an allied attachment (dark mechanicum?), or do you think that a Chaos version will be available via dataslate?

What I don't get is why don't you just use the Imperial rules and convert all of the models to Chaos? Tons of people worldwide have done this for years with Traitor Guard and Dark Mech armies.

Yeah, I don't really WANT superheavies to shake up the meta, because by "shake up" it actually means "take heaps of anti-tank and play a game of roll dice at it and hope it goes away".

Another unjustified attack vs. super-heavies. A Knight Paladin has only slightly better survivability than 2 Predators on a Skyshield Landing Pad. 1000 points of Knights is no different from a 'oh my god I need to prepare myself for this in advance' perspective than 1000 points of flyers, 1000 points of heavy tanks, 1000 points of monstrous creatures or 1000 points of deathstar unit with 2++ re-rollables. All of the previous happens all the time. The terror the word super-heavy causes in people is beyond me.

The issue with Wyches against walkers is that it is an opposed WS roll, which instantly cuts the number of grenades that land down significantly.

I had my Soulgrinder (a fairly similar profile in a lot of ways to the knight) charged by 5 in my last game and with perfectly respectable rolls on both sides, it was the SG that was still standing. That said the ++ save and extra attack of the SG were a factor and one could send 10 Wyches after it, so if they managed to take it out with their first attack, they'd be golden, if the knight survived to swing back, they'd be in trouble, as I suspect the combined D attacks and stomps would be sufficient to kill 10.

Posted over at La Taberna de Laurana:

Pure awesome! How much do you think the retail price is going to be?

 Therion wrote:

 sub-zero wrote:

As a Chaos player, I'm trying to figure out how to fit one of these into my army, will it be part of an allied attachment (dark mechanicum?), or do you think that a Chaos version will be available via dataslate?

What I don't get is why don't you just use the Imperial rules and convert all of the models to Chaos? Tons of people worldwide have done this for years with Traitor Guard and Dark Mech armies.

Because clearly, that's not tournament legal!

Plus some people can be really lazy and just want something to complain about.

Yeah, I don't really WANT superheavies to shake up the meta, because by "shake up" it actually means "take heaps of anti-tank and play a game of roll dice at it and hope it goes away".

Another unjustified attack vs. superheavies. A Knight Paladin has only slightly better survivability than 2 Predators on a Skyshield Landing Pad. 1000 points of Knights is no different from a 'oh my god I need to prepare myself for this in advance' perspective than 1000 points of flyers, 1000 points of heavy tanks, 1000 points of monstrous creatures or 1000 points of deathstar unit with 2++ re-rollables. All of the previous happens all the time. The terror the word super-heavy causes in people is beyond me.

Clearly it's because superheavies like the Knight Paladin have the "Fear" special rule.

These will obviously sell like hotcakes because of how amazing they look regardless of how good they are.

But they aren't good, they're terrible if you're allowing other Lords of War into the equation. Because the fact that they don't appear to have any 'D' ranged weapons (and still cost 375 points) means that they are a terrible choice compared to even a Warhound (which is just about the same cost as two Knights) that is armed with two 'double-barreled tubo-laser destructors (four 'D' shots a turn)...that Warhound will absolutely decimate two Knights.

That's the stupid terrible curse of GW releasing rules where 'D' weapons cost no extra points when they are, far and away, the best weapons in the game. That makes any Escalation unit without them utter garbage.

So the only real question is...are Knights Lords of War or not? The text from the WD seems to maybe indicate they're not, but the fact that they are a super-heavy vehicle and have 'D' weapons (things that only Lords of War are/get) kind of suggests that they are...will have to wait and see the full rules to be sure.

But really, since Knights are super-heavies and have 'D' CC weapons, I have a hard time believing that this will suddenly be the line that gets drawn in the sand where people can easily say that Knights are okay to include (because they don't have ranged 'D' weapons) while all other actual Lords of War are not allowed. It just makes no sense. GW is clearly going to keep pushing this direction, so to me it seems inevitable that either Knights are going to need to be banned in tournaments, or all Lords of War are going to have to be allowed.

And if you allow other Lords of War, then Knights are a terrible, terrible, terrible choice.


The only thing I think we can hope and pray for is for GW to release a '7th edition' as rumored that fundamentally changes the 'D' rule, calming it down and making it not such a bonkers-obvious choice over every weapon type (for no additional points cost). But given that they've *JUST* released Apocalypse and Escalation with the 'D' weapon rules in them, makes me doubt that this is a realistic possibility.

I see the chainsword seems to be on a poseable arm in that pic....am I hoping too much that the weapon options will be on interchangeable arms?

that would seriously make me stop breathing for a moment of GW allowed all three options to be made independently of each other in one kit with no parts expressly shared. Holy crap.

 Therion wrote:

 sub-zero wrote:

As a Chaos player, I'm trying to figure out how to fit one of these into my army, will it be part of an allied attachment (dark mechanicum?), or do you think that a Chaos version will be available via dataslate?

What I don't get is why don't you just use the Imperial rules and convert all of the models to Chaos? Tons of people worldwide have done this for years with Traitor Guard and Dark Mech armies.

Yeah, I don't really WANT superheavies to shake up the meta, because by "shake up" it actually means "take heaps of anti-tank and play a game of roll dice at it and hope it goes away".

Another unjustified attack vs. super-heavies. A Knight Paladin has only slightly better survivability than 2 Predators on a Skyshield Landing Pad. 1000 points of Knights is no different from a 'oh my god I need to prepare myself for this in advance' perspective than 1000 points of flyers, 1000 points of heavy tanks, 1000 points of monstrous creatures or 1000 points of deathstar unit with 2++ re-rollables. All of the previous happens all the time. The terror the word super-heavy causes in people is beyond me.

I'll agree to this, if these Knights are the "power level" at which GW wants us to play escalation then okay.. These are acceptable because they're not all that scary compared to other units you can use for the price. Strength D ranged weapons are the issue, and these don't have them.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Therion wrote:

 sub-zero wrote:

As a Chaos player, I'm trying to figure out how to fit one of these into my army, will it be part of an allied attachment (dark mechanicum?), or do you think that a Chaos version will be available via dataslate?

What I don't get is why don't you just use the Imperial rules and convert all of the models to Chaos? Tons of people worldwide have done this for years with Traitor Guard and Dark Mech armies.

Because clearly, that's not tournament legal!

Except that it is. Are you saying that if you take a few Knights, convert chaos symbols and mutations on them, they're no longer legal to play? Are you saying that Imperial Guard that uses Traitor Guard models instead of Cadians isn't a legal Imperial Guard army? That's news to me. I know about a dozen people who have played at GTs with illegal armies then.

Plus some people can be really lazy and just want something to complain about.

That's more likely. I'm half-expecting a response "But I don't want to use Imperial rules. I want Knights in my army with Fateweaver etc".

Clearly it's because superheavies like the Knight Paladin have the "Fear" special rule.

You nailed it

 azreal13 wrote:
The issue with Wyches against walkers is that it is an opposed WS roll, which instantly cuts the number of grenades that land down significantly.

I had my Soulgrinder (a fairly similar profile in a lot of ways to the knight) charged by 5 in my last game and with perfectly respectable rolls on both sides, it was the SG that was still standing. That said the ++ save and extra attack of the SG were a factor and one could send 10 Wyches after it, so if they managed to take it out with their first attack, they'd be golden, if the knight survived to swing back, they'd be in trouble, as I suspect the combined D attacks and stomps would be sufficient to kill 10.

You'd have to be lucky to kill 10 unless I'm missing something, maybe I am as I'm not all that familiar with escalation (kill 1 or 2 with the melee attacks and then kill a handful with stomp).

 yakface wrote:

These will obviously sell like hotcakes because of how amazing they look regardless of how good they are.

But they aren't good, they're terrible if you're allowing other Lords of War into the equation. Because the fact that they don't appear to have any 'D' ranged weapons (and still cost 375 points) means that they are a terrible choice compared to even a Warhound (which is just about the same cost as two Knights) that is armed with two 'double-barreled tubo-laser destructors (four 'D' shots a turn)...that Warhound will absolutely decimate two Knights.

That's the stupid terrible curse of GW releasing rules where 'D' weapons cost no extra points when they are, far and away, the best weapons in the game. That makes any Escalation unit without them utter garbage.

So the only real question is...are Knights Lords of War or not? The text from the WD seems to maybe indicate they're not, but the fact that they are a super-heavy vehicle and have 'D' weapons (things that only Lords of War are/get) kind of suggests that they are...will have to wait and see the full rules to be sure.

But really, since Knights are super-heavies and have 'D' CC weapons, I have a hard time believing that this will suddenly be the line that gets drawn in the sand where people can easily say that Knights are okay to include (because they don't have ranged 'D' weapons) while all other actual Lords of War are not allowed. It just makes no sense. GW is clearly going to keep pushing this direction, so to me it seems inevitable that either Knights are going to need to be banned in tournaments, or all Lords of War are going to have to be allowed.

And if you allow other Lords of War, then Knights are a terrible, terrible, terrible choice.


The only thing I think we can hope and pray for is for GW to release a '7th edition' as rumored that fundamentally changes the 'D' rule, calming it down and making it not such a bonkers-obvious choice over every weapon type (for no additional points cost). But given that they've *JUST* released Apocalypse and Escalation with the 'D' weapon rules in them, makes me doubt that this is a realistic possibility.

It doesn't look like they'll be Lords Of War, it looks like up to 6 in a force will be legal. But only legal in the sense of they'll be supported by an expansion book, which is a whole 'nother can of worms.

 yakface wrote:

These will obviously sell like hotcakes because of how amazing they look regardless of how good they are.

But they aren't good, they're terrible if you're allowing other Lords of War into the equation. Because the fact that they don't appear to have any 'D' ranged weapons (and still cost 375 points) means that they are a terrible choice compared to even a Warhound (which is just about the same cost as two Knights) that is armed with two 'double-barreled tubo-laser destructors (four 'D' shots a turn)...that Warhound will absolutely decimate two Knights.

But you're forgetting that the Knights do have a role. They're not Lords of War. They're units from a supplement codex that can play on their own, take allies, or be taken as allies. So tournaments that don't allow Lords of War will still allow Knights. Tournaments that do allow Lords of War, won't see Knights, since the guys who like big guys will show up with the much more points efficient Warhounds then.

As far as Knights being super-heavy goes, I think it's the only vehicle type other than monstrous creature that is currently playable for these types of big guys. A simple walker would have been awful, and a monstrous creature would have been inconsistent to the Imperial line. As far as size goes it seems to be much smaller than people expect, so it will thematically fit in with Trygons, Riptides and Wraithknights just fine.

 Therion wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Therion wrote:

 sub-zero wrote:

As a Chaos player, I'm trying to figure out how to fit one of these into my army, will it be part of an allied attachment (dark mechanicum?), or do you think that a Chaos version will be available via dataslate?

What I don't get is why don't you just use the Imperial rules and convert all of the models to Chaos? Tons of people worldwide have done this for years with Traitor Guard and Dark Mech armies.

Because clearly, that's not tournament legal!

Except that it is. Are you saying that if you take a few Knights, convert chaos symbols and mutations on them, they're no longer legal to play? Are you saying that Imperial Guard that uses Traitor Guard models instead of Cadians isn't a legal Imperial Guard army? That's news to me. I know about a dozen people who have played at GTs with illegal armies then.

That was a joke--hence the "".

I do think most people seem to be unaware that you can run a "counts as" force without a huge amount of issues, provided you're willing to put some sweat and elbow grease into it.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:
The issue with Wyches against walkers is that it is an opposed WS roll, which instantly cuts the number of grenades that land down significantly.

I had my Soulgrinder (a fairly similar profile in a lot of ways to the knight) charged by 5 in my last game and with perfectly respectable rolls on both sides, it was the SG that was still standing. That said the ++ save and extra attack of the SG were a factor and one could send 10 Wyches after it, so if they managed to take it out with their first attack, they'd be golden, if the knight survived to swing back, they'd be in trouble, as I suspect the combined D attacks and stomps would be sufficient to kill 10.

You'd have to be lucky to kill 10 unless I'm missing something, maybe I am as I'm not all that familiar with escalation (kill 1 or 2 with the melee attacks and then kill a handful with stomp).

Up to 3 blast markers, which can be placed within three inches of one another, which inflict auto hits on everything they cover on a 2+, against a unit that will be obliged to pile in and cluster up?

It will hurt. Certainly sufficiently to force a combat result with a fairly hefty negative modifier.

By the logic of the Knight rules Riptides should be priced closer to 300 points. Little difference in durability, slight downgrade in regards to the Thermal Cannon with the charged IA, and all you really lose after that is a slightly better invuln and the CC ability.

But, for little more they have Interceptor or a better invuln (FNP essentially makes their 5++ re-rollable) and the ability to JSJ, ignore night fighting, double range on the big gun by default.