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 Zweischneid wrote:
Perhaps. But if they'd stick with the old templates, the probably would've sold 3 more to the 3 people interested in Apoc that didn't have them.

Now, after the first Apoc, they had a rough idea of how many people are interested in Apoc, and could sell all of them something new, with a one-off production run that was conservatively based on previous Apoc-release sales to be sure to sell out.

Why wouldn't they have been able to work that out from the sales of the new apoc book? They changed the rules and unit stats/costs so to stay current you needed the min. of the new rulebook.

Looky Likey wrote:

 Zweischneid wrote:
Perhaps. But if they'd stick with the old templates, the probably would've sold 3 more to the 3 people interested in Apoc that didn't have them.

Now, after the first Apoc, they had a rough idea of how many people are interested in Apoc, and could sell all of them something new, with a one-off production run that was conservatively based on previous Apoc-release sales to be sure to sell out.

Why wouldn't they have been able to work that out from the sales of the new apoc book? They changed the rules and unit stats/costs so to stay current you needed the min. of the new rulebook.

Because the new Apoc book and the new "while-stocks-last" templates were released at the same time, if I remember it correctly?

 Zweischneid wrote:

Looky Likey wrote:

 Zweischneid wrote:
Perhaps. But if they'd stick with the old templates, the probably would've sold 3 more to the 3 people interested in Apoc that didn't have them.

Now, after the first Apoc, they had a rough idea of how many people are interested in Apoc, and could sell all of them something new, with a one-off production run that was conservatively based on previous Apoc-release sales to be sure to sell out.

Why wouldn't they have been able to work that out from the sales of the new apoc book? They changed the rules and unit stats/costs so to stay current you needed the min. of the new rulebook.

Because the new Apoc book and the new "while-stocks-last" templates were released at the same time, if I remember it correctly?

But what about the people interested in Escalation, who also have a need for the templates, but can't buy the relevant ones, as they've been unavailable since before it was published, and has no old version to fall back on?

 azreal13 wrote:


But what about the people interested in Escalation, who also have a need for the templates, but can't buy the relevant ones, as they've been unavailable since before it was published, and has no old version to fall back on?

No idea.

My best bet would be that Escalation wasn't yet planned, when they produced (not necessarily released) Apoc, and unlike Apoc, Escalation was a more unknown test-balloon, where they kept their risks small.

Pure speculation though.

I'd assume the "lead/development-time" on a "book-only" release like Escalation, where some people in the studio did some brainstorming on what to throw out for Christmas is a lot shorter, and involves a lot less people, than a "full release" including books, miniatures, templates, etc.. . like Apoc.

 Zweischneid wrote:
Because the new Apoc book and the new "while-stocks-last" templates were released at the same time, if I remember it correctly?

Not following, not sure if I'm being thick or not here?

Everybody needs the book as the rules have changed, you can make the templates or use old ones.
Book is still available so is potentially still actually racking up sales today, the templates sold out ages ago so nobody can buy them even if they wanted to
You need the templates for some of the Lords of War in the FW books but not in the GW Book, so template sales could have been boosted by that (assuming you can actually find some)?

My guess to why the templates aren't available, and it is a guess as I don't have the box anymore, is that the templates were made in China or some such so only a limited batch was brought.

Personally I was very disappointed with the new templates as they were very flimsy, which matters due to the size of them. I would hope they do a new, stronger version.

 Zweischneid wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:


But what about the people interested in Escalation, who also have a need for the templates, but can't buy the relevant ones, as they've been unavailable since before it was published, and has no old version to fall back on?

No idea.

My best bet would be that Escalation wasn't yet planned, when they produced (not necessarily released) Apoc, and unlike Apoc, Escalation was a more unknown test-balloon, where they kept their risks small.

Pure speculation though.

I'd assume the "lead/development-time" on a "book-only" release like Escalation, where some people in the studio did some brainstorming on what to throw out for Christmas is a lot shorter, and involves a lot less people, than a "full release" including books, miniatures, templates, etc.. . like Apoc.

But by the time Escalation was published, possibly even conceived, they'd already done the hard yards on the templates.

I know you do your best to argue in favour of GW when you can (and often when you can't, but do anyway) but it is difficult to see this as anything else as poor planning in one regard or another.

But we're drifting OT again.

Knights! Whooo!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Looky Likey wrote:

Personally I was very disappointed with the new templates as they were very flimsy, which matters due to the size of them. I would hope they do a new, stronger version.

I guess that's a possible explanation in favour of GW, the original design wasn't up to scratch, so they decided not to restock with the same (potentially a little dark, depending on if that decision was made before or after they went on a limited stock sale) and something has happened to snarly up the redesign/re supply, giving a longer gap than they anticipated.

Knights, whooo! Etc...

I mean, I've just gone and ordered the imperial targeting templates where I could find them, because over christmas I got the Escalation and Stronghold Assault books, and a lovely big ol' tempestus firebase. So I'm the guy Azreal13's talking about, and I almost got pretty shafted there. It seems very poorly thought-through. Who's going to buy the Apocalypse book now if they find out they can't get the right templates anymore?

They should just rush out a larger big blast marker and call it a day, problem solved.

You don't need the templates for use with a Knight, do you?

http://www.blacklibrary.com/Blog/monsters-martians-and-mysteries.html


relevant part for this thread

Next up, we have a the first in a series of new titles to support some fantastic new miniature(ish)s on the way from the Citadel Studio. We can't tell you much more yet, but if you haven't seen the teaser video that went out on White Dwarf Daily yesterday, take a look. Pay close attention at the end, and you might be able to make out the shape of things to come.

I believe Mr McNeill has penned some relevant texts

 azreal13 wrote:


But by the time Escalation was published, possibly even conceived, they'd already done the hard yards on the templates.

I know you do your best to argue in favour of GW when you can (and often when you can't, but do anyway) but it is difficult to see this as anything else as poor planning in one regard or another.

But we're drifting OT again.

Knights! Whooo!

I am never arguing in favour (or against) of GW. I only ever argue in favour of sound logic.

I don't even disagree that it's stupid (for customers) to not have these templates available anymore. I am simply trying to divine why that would be the case.

Book sales and accessory sales don't match. Look at 40K Codexes and the (while-stocks-last) psychic power cards, Dark Eldar Portals, etc. ..

Presumably, GW has some printer on-hand for all their books, so they can continually make new books if they choose to do so.

Stuff like templates and cards might be done externally and/or a different facility? Speculation?

 Zweischneid wrote:


I am never arguing in favour (or against) of GW. I only ever argue in favour of sound logic.

Ha!

That's almost sig worthy!

You've met me right? I've participated in the same threads as you've writhed and twisted and moved goal posts in? The same threads where the overwhelming majority (I'm tempted to say literally everyone, except being the Internet I'm not going to give you the opportunity to trawl through and find the handful of instances where it wasn't the case) have been shooting holes in your arguments?

I actually lol'd.

Frankly, you wouldn't know sound logic if it hit you on the nose with a rolled up newspaper.

But we digress..

Knights, Whooo!

So what additional weapons do we think we'll see either in the new Mechanicum book or in a future FW book?

The obvious ones I can think of being is something with the flamer template, hopefully with torrent, something heavy anti infantry - really want avenger cannon(s) here, and some sort of lascannon style anti tank shot.

 azreal13 wrote:


You've met me right? I've participated in the same threads as you've writhed and twisted and moved goal posts in? The same threads where the overwhelming majority (I'm tempted to say literally everyone, except being the Internet I'm not going to give you the opportunity to trawl through and find the handful of instances where it wasn't the case) have been shooting holes in your arguments?

Sure I know you. Happy to roll up any of the old threads. Just because people like you apparently can't handle more than one argument at a time in a single thread doesn't mean I am "moving goal-posts" and I've conceded every point where I truly was wrong (which does happen, though not necessarily all the points where you claimed I was wrong).

I want giant gatling cannons. I don't care if they suck, I want giant gatlings.

 Zweischneid wrote:
I am never arguing in favour (or against) of GW. I only ever argue in favour of sound logic.

HHahahahah!



Oh, and... umm... wooo! Knights!

 Zweischneid wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:


But what about the people interested in Escalation, who also have a need for the templates, but can't buy the relevant ones, as they've been unavailable since before it was published, and has no old version to fall back on?

No idea.

My best bet would be that Escalation wasn't yet planned, when they produced (not necessarily released) Apoc, and unlike Apoc, Escalation was a more unknown test-balloon, where they kept their risks small.

Without having read Escalation, I get the impression it's essentially just the Apoc rules for the Lords Of War units, with some tenuous rules to fit them into a normal game. So I'd quite happily accept that it was thrown together when Apocalypse didn't have the sales it was expected to. There was about a 6 month lag between releases, there's a 3 month turnaround for printing, so it's entirely possible Escalation was written a month or 2 after Apoc came out (over the course of a caffiene fuelled weekend).

That wouldn't have anything to do with the templates though, presumably they just don't think it's worth ordering another batch of them and are too detatched to realise that they've rendered 2 of their expansion books unsupported.

 Zweischneid wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:


You've met me right? I've participated in the same threads as you've writhed and twisted and moved goal posts in? The same threads where the overwhelming majority (I'm tempted to say literally everyone, except being the Internet I'm not going to give you the opportunity to trawl through and find the handful of instances where it wasn't the case) have been shooting holes in your arguments?

Sure I know you. Happy to roll up any of the old threads. Just because people like you apparently can't handle more than one argument at a time in a single thread doesn't mean I am "moving goal-posts" and I've conceded every point where I truly was wrong (which does happen, though not necessarily all the points where you claimed I was wrong).

People like me?

By all means elaborate.

I dare you.

 azreal13 wrote:


People like me?

By all means elaborate.

I dare you.

People who derails arguments with vague accusations of "moving goal-posts" or similar mud-slinging substitutes to .. well ... actually providing counter-arguments.

Zwei has a bit of a vested interest in creating 'controversy' and 'click throughs', and this possibly might...shade his interactions and arguments here.

If he annoys anyone too much, I suggest just using the excellent "IGNORE" feature on Dakka Dakka.

 Zweischneid wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:


People like me?

By all means elaborate.

I dare you.

People who derails arguments with vague accusations of "moving goal-posts" or similar mud-slinging substitutes to .. well ... actually providing counter-arguments.

So pot, you are calling me, the kettle, black?

Well done.

As usual, I've let you have your way for a bit, but enough is enough now, so if you want to continue this discussion, you'll be doing it by yourself.

I advise anyone else reading this to resist the urge to get involved also.

Knights! Whoooo!

EDIT
Essentially ninjad by Alph.

John Woo Knights? I think they look a little too stiff.

Well, I'm fed up with always being behind the meme curve so I'm jumping on the bandwagon early!

Knights, Whooo!

I'm significantly moved enough to get my first BIG unit.

Although an avid IG collector, I've never been enough of a gamer (never approaching Apocalypse) to consider anything like the Baneblade as being a worthwhile purchase...and that was before they put the price up to £85.

This, however, will see my IG getting some support after I've shopped around for the best price.

 azreal13 wrote:


So pot, you are calling me, the kettle, black?

/shrug

I was accused by you of GW favoritism

I was accused by you of "moving the goal post".

You provided evidence for neither.

What exactly was your intention with these insults?

 RiTides wrote:
You don't need the templates for use with a Knight, do you?

AS a superheavy, when it dies you use the big template for the explosion

Based on my local store, i coulde see these things being effective (you know not everyone brings tournament quality net lists ALL THE TIME). Whether i can save long enough for one is a different story. Overall, after looking at the model, and seeing the rules I'm pleased.

 Zweischneid wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:


You've met me right? I've participated in the same threads as you've writhed and twisted and moved goal posts in? The same threads where the overwhelming majority (I'm tempted to say literally everyone, except being the Internet I'm not going to give you the opportunity to trawl through and find the handful of instances where it wasn't the case) have been shooting holes in your arguments?

Sure I know you. Happy to roll up any of the old threads. Just because people like you apparently can't handle more than one argument at a time in a single thread doesn't mean I am "moving goal-posts" and I've conceded every point where I truly was wrong (which does happen, though not necessarily all the points where you claimed I was wrong).

You two get a room and stop dragging down threads....

Is the model to be released on the 22nd and direct only? I cant get my local store to respond so I have no idea what the availability of the model will actually be. Also I am suprised there are no "pre release" offers up on Itunes for the two book so it makes me wonder if they will be digital or not.

It will go up for pre-order on the 22nd and on sale on the 1st of March.

alphaecho wrote:
Well, I'm fed up with always being behind the meme curve so I'm jumping on the bandwagon early!

Knights, Whooo!

I'm significantly moved enough to get my first BIG unit.

Although an avid IG collector, I've never been enough of a gamer (never approaching Apocalypse) to consider anything like the Baneblade as being a worthwhile purchase...and that was before they put the price up to £85.

This, however, will see my IG getting some support after I've shopped around for the best price.

As I said earlier, I think its a great model, something that will probably take me 2 months of hobby time to finish, so if I can get it for £70 ish at a discounter I'll probably be getting one, it doesnt represent a truly dire cost/time investment, as far as GW go at least. I doubt it will ever see a gaming table though.

For reference, the last time I bought a big kit from GW was a baneblade. That was from forgeworld, a big lump of resin and cost me £150 or so.

NoggintheNog wrote:

alphaecho wrote:
Well, I'm fed up with always being behind the meme curve so I'm jumping on the bandwagon early!

Knights, Whooo!

I'm significantly moved enough to get my first BIG unit.

Although an avid IG collector, I've never been enough of a gamer (never approaching Apocalypse) to consider anything like the Baneblade as being a worthwhile purchase...and that was before they put the price up to £85.

This, however, will see my IG getting some support after I've shopped around for the best price.

As I said earlier, I think its a great model, something that will probably take me 2 months of hobby time to finish, so if I can get it for £70 ish at a discounter I'll probably be getting one, it doesnt represent a truly dire cost/time investment, as far as GW go at least. I doubt it will ever see a gaming table though.

For reference, the last time I bought a big kit from GW was a baneblade. That was from forgeworld, a big lump of resin and cost me £150 or so.

I was interested in the Gorgon and Crassus at various points in the past but the Knight is tickling me past the "interested" phase and heading towards "will buy". Failing that, the Transformers Metroplex that is still in a loft somewhere is getting a paint and skulls upgrade.

". Failing that, the Transformers Metroplex that is still in a loft somewhere is getting a paint and skulls upgrade.

NO, Don't you dare!!!