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2014/02/27 05:09:18
Subject: Imperial Knights - Codex Confirmed For Pre Order 1st March. Cover Art Leaked 25/02 OP updated.
Accolade wrote: US full retail to play one knight costs $181...
How do you even get at this number? You got the rules in the WD so you don't really need much else, so that's about $145 plus tax if you go retail. The only time you need the codex is if you want the background or if you need something not in the WD (no idea what that would be until I see the codex).
The white dwarf rules seem incomplete. Depending on how incomplete you may need the codex after all.
Well, to be fair, I am framing my argument from the PoV of allies and not actually a main detachment. Given the "play one knight" statement I quoted, I assumed Accolade was going along the same lines.
OK, in that POV is your knight titan scoring? Is it a battle brother to your primary detachment?
No and yes, in that order.
2014/02/27 05:19:41
Subject: Imperial Knights - Codex Confirmed For Pre Order 1st March. Cover Art Leaked 25/02 OP updated.
TiamatRoar wrote: How the gak does that make any narrative sense whatsoever?
Because you're not rolling randomly, you're rolling cinematically!!!
bodazoka wrote: One step closer to a Mechanicum army.. it will happen!!
See this I can get behind, but I'll leave it to a lavish Forge World production that contains a full Mechanicum list rather than a expensive hard-back Codex for a single model.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/02/27 05:21:10
DJGietzen wrote: Would you prefer a rule that for every knight titan in your force you can roll a d6, on a 1 nothing happens, on a 2-5 they get +1 BS and WS and better ion shields and on a 6 they get +2 BS and WS and the best ion shields?
No. I would prefer a codex that lets you choose which units you are taking, and which upgrades you are going on put on them.
In a game that is supposedly (and that's a big 'supposedly' in this case, but that doesn't change the basic principle) pitting two equal forces against each other, any rule that randomly changes the abilities of a unit is bad, unless each of the random possibilities is equally useful and/or limiting.
Randomly making a unit weaker or stronger is not good games design.
Its the same mechanic used in the grey knight dex with the space monkeys. As we've heard it described its a lot less nuanced but its still the same thing and no one complained then that I can recall.
Plenty of people complained about the Jokaero.
Every time GW includes an option in a codex that has random results (with the possible exception of anything to do with Orks) people complain about it. Because uneven randomness is bad.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/02/27 05:35:25
2014/02/27 05:25:14
Subject: Imperial Knights - Codex Confirmed For Pre Order 1st March. Cover Art Leaked 25/02 OP updated.
DJGietzen wrote: Would you prefer a rule that for every knight titan in your force you can roll a d6, on a 1 nothing happens, on a 2-5 they get +1 BS and WS and better ion shields and on a 6 they get +2 BS and WS and the best ion shields?
Of course not. What we'd want is properly crafted rules, where the capabilities of a unit is represented via its points costs. If there are lesser ranked Knights, then have them as options for a lower points cost. If there are super hardcore elite Knights then, again, list them as a separate unit with an increased points cost. That's what balance is all about - creating a rule-set that rewards options and variety via units that have points costs scaled to their approximate abilities and rarity.
insaniak wrote: In a game that is supposedly ... pitting to equal forces against each other, any rule that randomly changes the abilities of a unit is bad, unless each of the random possibilities is equally useful and/or limiting.
Exactly.
Why do people think that Possessed are so hated? They keep giving them random cinematic tables to roll on rather than allowing people to simply pay for the upgrades they want. Of course points aren't always the great leveller, and you cannot achieve perfect balance - those are givens - but increasing the amount of random rolls is not the answer. They take the game backwards.
Still liking the models, and it's cool seeing different colour schemes on them... but it strikes me that once upon a time, in a picture like that at least one of those 4 models would have been converted in some way. .
Given the mercenary nature of the Freeblades, they woudl have been the perfect canvas for going wild with different detailing... and after all of the variants shown so far, the stock 'standing there' pose is starting to get a little old.
It's not surprising by this point, given the shift in focus in the latest batch of codexes to showing stock models almost exclusively. But for someone who remembers the creativity that used to come out of the studio, it's disappointing.
2014/02/27 05:45:58
Subject: Re:Imperial Knights - Codex Confirmed For Pre Order 1st March. Cover Art Leaked 25/02 OP updated.
Still liking the models, and it's cool seeing different colour schemes on them... but it strikes me that once upon a time, in a picture like that at least one of those 4 models would have been converted in some way. .
Given the mercenary nature of the Freeblades, they woudl have been the perfect canvas for going wild with different detailing... and after all of the variants shown so far, the stock 'standing there' pose is starting to get a little old.
It's not surprising by this point, given the shift in focus in the latest batch of codexes to showing stock models almost exclusively. But for someone who remembers the creativity that used to come out of the studio, it's disappointing.
Using the C word around Jervis Johnson is a bit like exposing a vampire to sunlight.
I agree there has been a distinct lack of conversions in recent codex's, I'm looking at the old catachan codex right now, a lot of creativity on display. The poses are pretty static on the knights but I think that's a good thing from a gaming perspective, it's easy to forget they're vehicles not mc's.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/02/27 05:49:38
Do you play 30k? It'd be a lot cooler if you did.
2014/02/27 05:46:41
Subject: Re:Imperial Knights - Codex Confirmed For Pre Order 1st March. Cover Art Leaked 25/02 OP updated.
Accolade wrote: I really wanted to get a knight. I really did. The kit looks fantastic, it's very reminiscent of the old epic models, well updated and gorgeous to boot.
But it seems that each new bit of information we get about it, in conjunction with glimpses at the future of 40k, and I just feel like the game is falling apart. US full retail to play one knight costs $181...I guess you could get more "bang for your buck" by running more knights, but it appears that the rules in the codex are basically just rules for ONE MODEL?! so it doesn't sound like you can really improve that cost.
Wait...what... MSRP is $181 ?!?!....... You know that that's over $60.00 per sprue right. Oh my...
Any resemblance of this post to written English is purely coincidental.
2014/02/27 05:51:55
Subject: Re:Imperial Knights - Codex Confirmed For Pre Order 1st March. Cover Art Leaked 25/02 OP updated.
Accolade wrote: I really wanted to get a knight. I really did. The kit looks fantastic, it's very reminiscent of the old epic models, well updated and gorgeous to boot.
But it seems that each new bit of information we get about it, in conjunction with glimpses at the future of 40k, and I just feel like the game is falling apart. US full retail to play one knight costs $181...I guess you could get more "bang for your buck" by running more knights, but it appears that the rules in the codex are basically just rules for ONE MODEL?! so it doesn't sound like you can really improve that cost.
Wait...what... MSRP is $181 ?!?!....... You know that that's over $60.00 per sprue right. Oh my...
$140 for the model and $41 for the Codex.
2014/02/27 05:52:23
Subject: Re:Imperial Knights - Codex Confirmed For Pre Order 1st March. Cover Art Leaked 25/02 OP updated.
DJGietzen wrote: Would you prefer a rule that for every knight titan in your force you can roll a d6, on a 1 nothing happens, on a 2-5 they get +1 BS and WS and better ion shields and on a 6 they get +2 BS and WS and the best ion shields?
Of course not. What we'd want is properly crafted rules, where the capabilities of a unit is represented via its points costs. If there are lesser ranked Knights, then have them as options for a lower points cost. If there are super hardcore elite Knights then, again, list them as a separate unit with an increased points cost. That's what balance is all about - creating a rule-set that rewards options and variety via units that have points costs scaled to their approximate abilities and rarity.
Not rolling on a chart.
Maybe the game designers think that if they make everything perfectly random, it will in turn be perfectly balanced.
2014/02/27 05:54:02
Subject: Re:Imperial Knights - Codex Confirmed For Pre Order 1st March. Cover Art Leaked 25/02 OP updated.
DJGietzen wrote: Would you prefer a rule that for every knight titan in your force you can roll a d6, on a 1 nothing happens, on a 2-5 they get +1 BS and WS and better ion shields and on a 6 they get +2 BS and WS and the best ion shields?
Of course not. What we'd want is properly crafted rules, where the capabilities of a unit is represented via its points costs. If there are lesser ranked Knights, then have them as options for a lower points cost. If there are super hardcore elite Knights then, again, list them as a separate unit with an increased points cost. That's what balance is all about - creating a rule-set that rewards options and variety via units that have points costs scaled to their approximate abilities and rarity.
Not rolling on a chart.
Maybe the game designers think that if they make everything perfectly random, it will in turn be perfectly balanced.
That makes no sense and not just from a logical perspective but a grammatical one as well.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/02/27 06:06:32
Do you play 30k? It'd be a lot cooler if you did.
2014/02/27 06:19:58
Subject: Imperial Knights - Codex Confirmed For Pre Order 1st March. Cover Art Leaked 25/02 OP updated.
Meh! the pricing of GW stuff is just so Kirby can line his CEO pockets before he bails on them and leave them to fix and clean for some other poor schmuck
"Your mumblings are awakening the sleeping Dragon, be wary when meddling the affairs of Dragons, for thou art tasty and go good with either ketchup or chocolate. "
Dragons fear nothing, if it acts up, we breath magic fire that turns them into marshmallow peeps. We leaguers only cry rivets!
2014/02/27 08:08:55
Subject: Imperial Knights - Codex Confirmed For Pre Order 1st March. Cover Art Leaked 25/02 OP updated.
NoggintheNog wrote: Well, I'm planning on buying one as a painting project, and all along didn't think it was likely to see a gaming table at any point.
Now, I'm positive it won't. Still going to enjoy painting it though.
QFT.
"All GW will gain is my increased contempt for their business practices." - AesSedai
"Its terrible the way that conversion kit is causing him to buy 2 GW kits... " - Mad4Minis
"GW are hard to parody, as they are sometimes so stupid that the best in comedy couldn't beat them at their own game..." - Paradigm
2014/02/27 08:18:05
Subject: Re:Imperial Knights - Codex Confirmed For Pre Order 1st March. Cover Art Leaked 25/02 OP updated.
via Father Gabe on Faeit 212
I have had a chance to skim through my advanced copy of Codex: Imperial Knight. Here are the highlights:
3) Ally Matrix:
Battle Brothers: Everyone Else
Allies of Convenience: Eldar,Grey Knights
Desperate Allies: Tau, Dark Eldar
Apocalypse: Orks, Necrons, Chaos Demons, Chaos Space Marines, Tyranids
Am I missing something here? Under 'battle brothers' the rumour states 'everyone else'.
Doesn't that mean every army can take them?
If it does, seems odd that Grey Knights are just AoC.
Everyone else seems to be ranting that CSM can't take them & am now very confused.
Suppose the good news is that Sisters (or whatever they're called now) can take them.
(Also - 1st use of the 'bold' function - so excited!!)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/02/27 08:45:13
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2014/02/27 08:20:50
Subject: Re:Imperial Knights - Codex Confirmed For Pre Order 1st March. Cover Art Leaked 25/02 OP updated.
via Father Gabe on Faeit 212
I have had a chance to skim through my advanced copy of Codex: Imperial Knight. Here are the highlights:
1) For non-Imperial Knight armies...you can get up to 3 as a separate detachment. This is a separate detachment from allies and lord of war...which is the new template I am guessing we will see in future codexes...sorry everyone Escalation is standard. Unless of course I looked at that box wrong...
2) Datasheets. There is a section in the codex, after organization chart, that covers Datasheets. None are mentioned but looks like these will be popping up in books...sorry everyone that don't consider them official, etc...
3) Ally Matrix:
Battle Brothers: Everyone Else
Allies of Convenience: Eldar,Grey Knights
Desperate Allies: Tau, Dark Eldar
Apocalypse: Orks, Necrons, Chaos Demons, Chaos Space Marines, Tyranids
4) Primary Detachment: 3 - 6 Imperial Knights. 1 is the designated Warlord (roll on Imperial Knight Warlord Trait table...yep Warlord Traits).
Additionally: Your remaining Imperial Knights in the Primary formation can roll on the Knight Apparent/Knight Seneschal chart. 1 - Knight is -1 WS/BS, Ion Shield is 5+ now. 2-5 Your an Imperial Knight. 6 - Knight is +1 WS/BS, Ion Shield is 3+ now.
5) Concerning Warlord Traits: They range up and down from being useful to 'meh'. Examples: +1" to Run/Charge range. +1 to Building Damage Chart. My favorite: Warlord gains It Will Not Die!
6) Let me stop all the questions now ladies and gentleman. Cannot show pictures. There are no other unit entries for Adeptus Mechanicum or Freeblades. They are not even listed on the ally chart.
7) The Companion Guide is amazingly beautiful for coffee table style books. Its a big book, lots of pretty pictures, etc. It does not contain rules but for collectors its a nice buy. Average guy might not buy it but dedicated collectors will want to order it. I recommend ordering it in a Games Workshop, ship to the store for safety and protection of the book.
Few things I would really love to know if anyone can help! (thanks in advance)
Battle Brothers: Everyone Else - does this actually mention Sisters and the Inquisition codex's by name
4) Primary Detachment: 3 - 6 Imperial Knights. 1 is the designated Warlord (roll on Imperial Knight Warlord Trait table...yep Warlord Traits).
Additionally: Your remaining Imperial Knights in the Primary formation can roll Is that a may/can or must and so can be ignored if you choose........?
I AM A MARINE PLAYER
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
Yeah, that is why I am considering not purchasing. Its way over priced. This thing while having an awesome aesthetic, is going to look puny for $140. I know I won't purchase the codex for $41. That's asinine considering how much rules content it has. It may take 3 or 4 pages of the book. However, I'm sure it will fit on one page neatly, with pictures.
2014/02/27 08:56:11
Subject: Re:Imperial Knights - Codex Confirmed For Pre Order 1st March. Cover Art Leaked 25/02 OP updated.
via Father Gabe on Faeit 212
I have had a chance to skim through my advanced copy of Codex: Imperial Knight. Here are the highlights:
1) For non-Imperial Knight armies...you can get up to 3 as a separate detachment. This is a separate detachment from allies and lord of war...which is the new template I am guessing we will see in future codexes...sorry everyone Escalation is standard. Unless of course I looked at that box wrong...
2) Datasheets. There is a section in the codex, after organization chart, that covers Datasheets. None are mentioned but looks like these will be popping up in books...sorry everyone that don't consider them official, etc...
3) Ally Matrix:
Battle Brothers: Everyone Else
Allies of Convenience: Eldar,Grey Knights
Desperate Allies: Tau, Dark Eldar
Apocalypse: Orks, Necrons, Chaos Demons, Chaos Space Marines, Tyranids
4) Primary Detachment: 3 - 6 Imperial Knights. 1 is the designated Warlord (roll on Imperial Knight Warlord Trait table...yep Warlord Traits).
Additionally: Your remaining Imperial Knights in the Primary formation can roll on the Knight Apparent/Knight Seneschal chart. 1 - Knight is -1 WS/BS, Ion Shield is 5+ now. 2-5 Your an Imperial Knight. 6 - Knight is +1 WS/BS, Ion Shield is 3+ now.
5) Concerning Warlord Traits: They range up and down from being useful to 'meh'. Examples: +1" to Run/Charge range. +1 to Building Damage Chart. My favorite: Warlord gains It Will Not Die!
6) Let me stop all the questions now ladies and gentleman. Cannot show pictures. There are no other unit entries for Adeptus Mechanicum or Freeblades. They are not even listed on the ally chart.
7) The Companion Guide is amazingly beautiful for coffee table style books. Its a big book, lots of pretty pictures, etc. It does not contain rules but for collectors its a nice buy. Average guy might not buy it but dedicated collectors will want to order it. I recommend ordering it in a Games Workshop, ship to the store for safety and protection of the book.
Few things I would really love to know if anyone can help! (thanks in advance)
Battle Brothers: Everyone Else - does this actually mention Sisters and the Inquisition codex's by name
4) Primary Detachment: 3 - 6 Imperial Knights. 1 is the designated Warlord (roll on Imperial Knight Warlord Trait table...yep Warlord Traits).
Additionally: Your remaining Imperial Knights in the Primary formation can roll Is that a may/can or must and so can be ignored if you choose........?
Don't count on C:=I= being mentioned. The escalation book touted a super heavy for every faction would be printed with its pages. The Inquisition and sisters were both omitted from that book as I expect they will be moving forward.
2014/02/27 09:22:46
Subject: Imperial Knights - Codex Confirmed For Pre Order 1st March. Cover Art Leaked 25/02 OP updated.
Its the same with forthcoming Legion of the Damned as well....................I guess the other supplementary Codexes count as their parent codexes for this............as LofthD might for Space Marines
I AM A MARINE PLAYER
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
Well, that random table sounds massively stupid, I hope it is completely optional. I didn't expected much from this codex, but if these rumours are true, it still manages to be a disappointment. At least I hoped that there would be something special for the Baron, (besides warlord traits) but apparently not. It is annoying if there is a veteran version of the Knights, but your Warlord cannot be one.
The thing I keep musing on, is Kroothawks excellent and somewhat "Lampooning post" on the Armies in the next tournament.... It's funny because it's basically true, 6th Edition Allies has absolutely killed this edition, I know I haven't played much 6th, but I've seen plenty of games at my local club and I've see some ridiculous non-40k things in there highlights include.
Ultramarines with a Lord of Skulls
Eldar Wraith knight allied with a Riptide on a Skypad Landing dock thing with a Bastion etc etc.
Blood Angels with Necrons
I'm all for variation but to my mind, this is just fething ridiculous and it just annoys the hell out of me. GW has made the Rules a vehicle to shift models, not a vehicle to a fun, balanced and engaging game full of variety. Freeblades is just another example of this "Shift models and bollox to the 40k universe".You know a game system is broken, when you have a million choices but the same 10 armies are pretty much seen on rotation. The constant "Pay to Win" mentality means rules are constantly being added to and never achieve a degree of balance, basically if you have the latest model and codex you have a 20% better chance of winning. That in itself is balls.
Freeblades are just a excuse for this. As I see it 4 factions should have these.
1. Imperial guard (I'm throwing Ad Mech, sisters etc in with these)
2. Traitor Guard (Cultists)
3. Space Marines
4. Chaos Marines
Why other factions get these....We may as well say That Orks can have Landraiders and Rhino's.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2014/02/27 10:21:09
Collecting Forge World 30k????? If you prefix any Thread Subject line on 30k or Pre-heresy or Horus Heresy with [30K] we can convince LEGO and the Admin team to create a 30K mini board if we can show there is enough interest!
2014/02/27 10:19:54
Subject: Re:Imperial Knights - Codex Confirmed For Pre Order 1st March. Cover Art Leaked 25/02 OP updated.
The universe has become so muddy and sullied, and retconned to hell you can prove just about anything is fluffy with a reference, just because it's written down doesn't mean it isn't a load of Balls. The last decade has spawned a awful lot of crap fluff.
Collecting Forge World 30k????? If you prefix any Thread Subject line on 30k or Pre-heresy or Horus Heresy with [30K] we can convince LEGO and the Admin team to create a 30K mini board if we can show there is enough interest!
