Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Looks like an uphill battle to organize foreign plants in the south at this point:

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014/02/14/united-auto-workers-union-stunned-by-devastating-defeat-in-tennessee/

Good for them. Don't need to pay dues to someone to let them "negotiate" for you.

Growing dislike on some Unions policies. Like Lockheed(?) moving plants to SC to avoid the BS in WA hence deny SC of jobs. Union leaders seem to be looking more for themselves then others...for the people...

A Union shouldn't be forced on those who don't want it. Good for them.

A little surprising, since the CEO seemed to be down with it. But I have to imagine the spectre of Detroit looms large.

Also, Grover Norquist sucks.

I'm not a fan of unions at all. My dad worked at a plant here for over 20 years that was union, when the plant shut down, all the workers were told to get off the property, except the Union reps. Why? Because rather than fight for everyone else, they voted secretly to double their pay, and stay on to do the work for the next 2 years AND get nice severance packages.


Good for those workers down there

VW have "workers councils" in all their plants, they don't need unions.
Why pay dues for something you get for free?

There simply wasn't much UAW could have done for them. They already have a better wage scheme than the UAW's managed to get for its workers at the Big Three.

Just one more reason that I won't ever buy a Volkswagen.

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:
Just one more reason that I won't ever buy a Volkswagen.

Really!? Because a company that decides it's better to pay it's employees a good, decent wage to make a good, high quality product... and then those employees end up being HAPPY with their payscale/pay situation, and decide it's better to NOT unionize??

That's some kind of crazy right there man. I personally own a VW, and have gotta say, it's quite possibly the best "small car" that I've ever owned... I think that the American car companies should really take note... AFAIK, the UAW has had a ton of difficulty in breaking into the foreign car company plants here in the US (so VW, BMW, etc) to unionize them. Goes to show that these companies have a certain value that they impart not only to their customers, but also their employees.


Good on the guys out here working for VW.

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:
Just one more reason that I won't ever buy a Volkswagen.

Really!? Because a company that decides it's better to pay it's employees a good, decent wage to make a good, high quality product... and then those employees end up being HAPPY with their payscale/pay situation, and decide it's better to NOT unionize??

That's some kind of crazy right there man. I personally own a VW, and have gotta say, it's quite possibly the best "small car" that I've ever owned... I think that the American car companies should really take note... AFAIK, the UAW has had a ton of difficulty in breaking into the foreign car company plants here in the US (so VW, BMW, etc) to unionize them. Goes to show that these companies have a certain value that they impart not only to their customers, but also their employees.


Good on the guys out here working for VW.

From what I've read, VW is a great place to work.
As far as unions go,I had a friend doing an engineering internship at Boeing one summer who came in one morning to find a piece of steel propped against his work area. He moved it 6 feet out of his way and got on with his tasks, not thinking anything about it until a steward came to him at the end of the day and informed him that a complaint had been lodged against him. He had been accused of taking work from a union man when he moved the steel that 6 feet.

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:
Just one more reason that I won't ever buy a Volkswagen.

Really!? Because a company that decides it's better to pay it's employees a good, decent wage to make a good, high quality product... and then those employees end up being HAPPY with their payscale/pay situation, and decide it's better to NOT unionize??

That's some kind of crazy right there man. I personally own a VW, and have gotta say, it's quite possibly the best "small car" that I've ever owned... I think that the American car companies should really take note... AFAIK, the UAW has had a ton of difficulty in breaking into the foreign car company plants here in the US (so VW, BMW, etc) to unionize them. Goes to show that these companies have a certain value that they impart not only to their customers, but also their employees.


Good on the guys out here working for VW.

Yeah really, I won't buy a non-union made car.

They have every right to not unionize just as I have every right not to patronize their business. They have their principles and I have mine; there is nothing crazy about it.

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:
Yeah really, I won't buy a non-union made car.

They have every right to not unionize just as I have every right not to patronize their business. They have their principles and I have mine; there is nothing crazy about it.

Just out of curiosity, why do you only buy union-made vehicles?

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:
Yeah really, I won't buy a non-union made car.

They have every right to not unionize just as I have every right not to patronize their business. They have their principles and I have mine; there is nothing crazy about it.

Just out of curiosity, why do you only buy union-made vehicles?

Because I believe in and support American labor unions.

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:
Yeah really, I won't buy a non-union made car.

They have every right to not unionize just as I have every right not to patronize their business. They have their principles and I have mine; there is nothing crazy about it.

Just out of curiosity, why do you only buy union-made vehicles?

Because I believe in and support American labor unions.

I'm sure you have your stories why just as most of here have our stories why we don't. At one time unions were good, but that time is long past.

Relapse wrote:
I'm sure you have your stories why just as most of here have our stories why we don't. At one time unions were good, but that time is long past.

Outside of anecdotal stories, what has a union done to you specifically that has turned your opinion on them?

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:

Relapse wrote:
I'm sure you have your stories why just as most of here have our stories why we don't. At one time unions were good, but that time is long past.

Outside of anecdotal stories, what has a union done to you specifically that has turned your opinion on them?

You do realize that you just said "outside of anecdotal stories, what anecdotal stories have you got", right?

 djones520 wrote:

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:

Relapse wrote:
I'm sure you have your stories why just as most of here have our stories why we don't. At one time unions were good, but that time is long past.

Outside of anecdotal stories, what has a union done to you specifically that has turned your opinion on them?

You do realize that you just said "outside of anecdotal stories, what anecdotal stories have you got", right?

Poor choice of words on my part. The question should have read something like this, "Outside of anecdotal stories about friends or friends of friends, what has a union done to you specifically that has turned your opinion on them?

What I meant was what has happened to you personally, not something like, "Well my friend told me one time..."

Well, having a relative who is a member of the UAW in Detroit, I can point out how their actions put her in danger due to their willing (and successful) defense of people who drink and use drugs on the job. I could also point out how they protect a civilian employee that I work with who is absolutely incompetent, and cannot at all be trusted to do his job, but we are unable to fire him without a seeming act of congress.

I don't need personal stories though, I have seen plenty of evidence of bad union conduct to show that there is no reason at all for me to support them. Use of violence, threats of violence, abuse of powers, hell I've seen unions cause employees loss of job to simply spite the owners.

I also find it absolutely silly that you'll refuse to support a company because it's employees didn't want to unionize. Not the executives of the company, but the employees themselves.

There are definitely certain areas where, I think, Unions can/ and do good things... some of these are like the Teachers' Unions, because I'm sure we've all seen personally, how much local/national politicians just LOOOOVE cutting educational funding, and often times, the school boards want to look at teacher salaries, rather than unnecessary programs, such as sports.

Most of them started off well intentioned, but have since grown monstrous in their power/actions. In my home state, the Nursing Corps make roughly 70-80k per year (having asked around, people such as my sister in law, who works in Nevada, make 40-60k per year)... but a few years ago, they went on strike for MORE wages. Now, their grievance at the time was legitimate, and I suppose that the Strike was justified. This was because most of the hospitals had "mandatory overtime" much of which was actually unpaid, because of the existing contracts, etc. But public opinion was against these nurses, and their union because they were seen as greedy.

The UAW tries to pay their workers astronomical amounts for what is basically unskilled, or slightly skilled labor (lets face it, if your sole job is "place right front tire on vehicle, thread lugnuts" you don't have a very demanding skillset) and in the case of the UAW... between them and the political element in Detroit, well, we all see how well that city is faring at the moment.

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:

Relapse wrote:
I'm sure you have your stories why just as most of here have our stories why we don't. At one time unions were good, but that time is long past.

Outside of anecdotal stories, what has a union done to you specifically that has turned your opinion on them?

Personal experience. Teamsters tried to muscle their way into a cabinet factory I worked at in PA. It wasn't pretty.

 djones520 wrote:
Well, having a relative who is a member of the UAW in Detroit, I can point out how their actions put her in danger due to their willing (and successful) defense of people who drink and use drugs on the job. I could also point out how they protect a civilian employee that I work with who is absolutely incompetent, and cannot at all be trusted to do his job, but we are unable to fire him without a seeming act of congress.

I don't need personal stories though, I have seen plenty of evidence of bad union conduct to show that there is no reason at all for me to support them. Use of violence, threats of violence, abuse of powers, hell I've seen unions cause employees loss of job to simply spite the owners.

I also find it absolutely silly that you'll refuse to support a company because it's employees didn't want to unionize. Not the executives of the company, but the employees themselves.

I have seen non-union employers protect incompetent employees who have put themselves and others in danger, disregard company drug/alcohol policies for certain employees, and refuse to terminate employees because of negative actions (and inaction) against a company. Non-union companies have routinely bent and broken labor laws, manipulated employees, and gambled with employee pensions, all to pad the pockets of shareholders and company executives. It is sad that this kind of behavior is overlooked and tolerated (some times even celebrated) by people with an anti-union agenda.

Anti-union activists have used violence and threats of violence. Outside of the historical accounts of it, there are times where it has occurred in today's world. During the Wisconsin pro-union protests, Indiana Deputy Attorney General Jeffrey Cox said that Governor Scott Walker should use live ammunition against the protesters and Indiana deputy prosecutor Carlos Lam suggested Governor Walker stage a "false flag" (even using a firearm) attack and pin it on pro-union activists. I've seen non-union companies fire people for the slightest "misstep" because they know they have no recourse against them.

I have nothing against any man or woman who gets up every morning to go out and make a living just like I do. I celebrate the American worker, but being union is a choice that people have the right to make. Just as it's a choice for me to spend my money on whomever I choose to spend it on. Unions aren't perfect. There is a lot they need to catch up with the 21st century and they have a long way to go to repair their public image.

Is Volkswagen a bad company? Are they guilty of anything I described? I would like to think not. By all accounts, it seems like a decent place to work. That being said, their workers do not support what I believe in, therefore I will choose not to spend my money there. I'm sorry you find my principles "silly."

Well it looks like the endless Union bashing by the people who have the money and control most of what the average American learns about unions in this country has finally paid dividends!

I am a union employee in an enviroment with both Union and non Union employees. Yes there are bad examples and practices inside a union. However, if you think the non Union and contract employees are somehow better off or happier I would say you are misinformed, under duress, or have willingly accepted blissful ignorance. I've seen all walks of construction workers, factory workers, engineers, and technicians all in relevant fields that I could work. I do not want what they have at all. I could tell you volumes, sadly few are listening here. But please, ignore me and continue getting your education from every example the tv or other media can parade around between thier sponsor's commercials for you to see and believe that unions are actually detrimental to anything other than a corporation's bottom line.

This wasn't even worth my time : (

It seems the problem with US unions is they still have the ability to form a closed shop. That is where the problem lies, but the problem on the other side in the US is that if you don't have a close shop in many states the employer can drive out unions by refusing to employ union members as I understand it. I think you don't have any protection from discrimination for Union membership like we do in the UK, so the only choice is to ensure the Union has enough power to close the business if they have a problem, as if they don't have he numbers they will just be sacked. Unfortunately that is on the employers not the unions that employees need that protection.

In this case it seem that they were offers the choice, VW were more than happy for them to unionise and they chose not too as they are happy as VW are a good employer. I can't see that as anything but a good thing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:


Is Volkswagen a bad company? Are they guilty of anything I described? I would like to think not. By all accounts, it seems like a decent place to work. That being said, their workers do not support what I believe in, therefore I will choose not to spend my money there. I'm sorry you find my principles "silly."

It is odd because VW are a good company. Surely unions are like armies. We have them out of necessity and anyone pro worker should be supporting a company who's workers are treated well enough that they don't feel the need for a union?

I think its awesome that they don't want to or need to unionize. Unions are made to protect workers, but it seems their employes are content and don't need one. I used to work for a vw dealership as a tech and all of my experiences with them were good. Now the have owner of dealership, maybe not so much. I think in some cases unions are over used. I'm currently in a union and they have were castrated by my employer long before i arrived, its very frustrating to pay dues into a union that can't do anything.

 Steve steveson wrote:

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:


Is Volkswagen a bad company? Are they guilty of anything I described? I would like to think not. By all accounts, it seems like a decent place to work. That being said, their workers do not support what I believe in, therefore I will choose not to spend my money there. I'm sorry you find my principles "silly."

It is odd because VW are a good company. Surely unions are like armies. We have them out of necessity and anyone pro worker should be supporting a company who's workers are treated well enough that they don't feel the need for a union?

They voted against organizing and I respect that. Even though I feel a unionized work force is better trained and better paid, no one should be forced to organize. If the UAW is not wanted there, than so be it. If the UAW were to try to force their way in to the VW plant, I would oppose it. That is how I support them.

That being said, I will not support their foreign-owned company using my union-earned wage. I will instead use it to buy a union made vehicle from an American-owned manufacturer.

Good for them.

While there are instances where a union is a good thing, that kind of instance is rarer and rarer. The sooner we get rid of self-serving unions, the better.

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:
Just one more reason that I won't ever buy a Volkswagen.

If the workers don't want a union, what's wrong with not having a union?

I was pro-union until I joined one.

That union that I am a part of has done absolutely nothing to protect my interests, which are to have a flexible work schedule and continuation of benefits. They won't do any of that. They will not help a fellow co-worker on a schedule change because she tried to resolve the issue with management first. They flat out refused to assist. Instead, they are running a campaign to suggest that people have or develop allergies/fatigue because of the building I work in... so they can work at home. Which is stupid.

Management used the union as an excuse to not do their jobs. My previous management would not discuss things like hours, leave, and scheduling because they were afraid of the union (direct quote from a former supervisor). I took over the steward's former position in part, and she insisted, INSISTED that an empty office be kept for her. She wasn't doing any staff work, instead was full time union and was never on site! And, the union makes office selection ridiculous, implementing a bunch of rules that are then gamed so management does whatever they want anyway.

Even though I've paid dues for 3 years, I haven't received a raise in that time, meanwhile my benefits have been reduced with a simultaneous increase in out of pocket expenses. Yet the union spends all sorts of money to send out newsletters, talk to congress, etc. Sorry, don't want to be a part of that.

All that is annoying, but this is the last straw: the union is very pro-collection of dues, and advertises how to join, what form to fill out, etc. and you can join any time. But now that I want to exit, I had to search extensively for that process. They only allow people to exit once per year. A form has to be filed in triplicate in a two week span in June, sent to the president and somewhere in payroll, then the dues cease end of June. If I or they mess up on the filing? Too bad, gotta pay another year.

That last thing is why I want out. Don't make it so I have to pay for something I don't want, then make it a stupid game to get out.

So, good on the VW workers. Do I think unions have a place? Yes. I also think they are subject to extreme corruption, pay for protection type of schemes. I dislike that there is no real recourse if the union is incompetent.

I like the idea of unions in theory very much. Unfortunately every union my wife and I have belonged to (UAW 2110 for me, APWU for her) have provided a very similar experience to what Gymno described above - they seem to nigh-universally suck in practice.