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 Psienesis wrote:

Brutal Viking wrote:
I just know I always forget what the mysterious terrain does and it's bitten me a few times

That's more the fault of the player than the fault of the ruleset. Planets like Catachan are part of the setting.

Or, to phrase it another way,giving the player so much to remember that some things get forgotten, or including rules that are either arbitrary or irrelevant to the point where they are ignored by many, is bad game design.

I don't think 7th is gonna change anything hardly at all. As others have said, its the supplements plus errata bound together to make it more convenient / easier to understand for a person just entering the hobby. Its called 7th because its the only logical thing to call it. Calling '6th edition part deux' is silly and confusing. Forgeworld names their books in a wildly inconsistent way and even people who've been in the hobby for ages can't keep them straight all the time.

As far as the assault vs shooting tossing around of wild rule changes:

Martel732 wrote:Make models that shoot well more expensive. Because they are more valuable than models with clubs. Done.

IMO this is the only reasonable suggestion in the whole thread. I think random charge ranges and overwatch are fun. Models and rules should be made by whats cool and fun. Points are to balance, it is their sole purpose.

I don't see things like overwatch, and challenges going away. that would invalidate "new" codexes like CSM and Tau...

It's more "cinematic" BS random tables designed to obfuscate the fact that the game designers have no idea how to make a balanced game. Because if the worst army in the game can get a win sometimes because a forest eats their opponent, hey, balance, right?

Sometimes, you deploy without having all the facts.... or are on a planet that has never previously known the tread of Man/Space-Elf/Space-Antelope-Fish/Bird-Man/Plant-Mushroom-Thing or Space-Dwarf (or any of the above with spikes). So you have no idea that the weird tree-thing over there is a sentient, flesh-eating monstrosity.

After all, sometimes the world's greatest military invades an enemy that is nearly a century behind in technological level, and gets wtfpwned by the weather and then defeated by peasants.

That doesn't explain why it's so common to not know all the facts. Really, should 1 in 6 forests actually be just a forest?

The only real change I would like to see it the ability to refuse a Challange without penalty.

 Anpu42 wrote:
The only real change I would like to see it the ability to refuse a Challange without penalty.

Didn't you know that every character in the 40k universe is a southern gentleman?



I think they should just get rid of it all together.

Games workshop release a new rule book for 40k roughly about every five years. Its way too soon in 6th editions life span for a new edition.

 Redbeard wrote:
Consider that movement is defined as being deliberate, but stopping periodically to check your surroundings. That's the standard 6" move, and that definition comes right from page 10. And yet, in spite of this deliberate movement, you have no idea that the forest, that may well be in your deployment zone, has ironbark or is carnivorous until you actually walk into it. Sure, that makes loads of sense.

And, worse, the "forest" is really just a couple random trees in an open field. Where the hell are all these nasty carnivores hiding in a patch of "wilderness" smaller than the average front lawn?

Some thoughrs on making assault better.

I like overwatch. But units that fire over watch should surrender all of their CC attacks in that first round of CC.

Not allowing units that run the chance to charge is terrible. Running already costs you any shooting. Allow units to run and assault. Fleet would work well with it but doesn't need a change.

Allow units to assault from vehicles like they were assaulting from difficult terrain. Assault vehicles ignore this.

Failed charges should still allow/force the unit to move. Perhaps unit must move the highest dice rolled forward?

I like consolidate d6 into assault. Force shooty armies to speead out to avoid it.

Give a bonus to combat resolution to charging units?

7th already? Damn. *searches wallet*

I would love to field 2 haruspex..

40k is a sci-fi game not fantasy assault should be the weakest strategy to use in 40k. If you want to play an assault based game GW already makes a game for that it is called Fantasy. Every one complaining about free shooting rolling sixes is not free shooting. Tau normally have to use most of their army to stop one assault. Assault does not suck because of over watch it sucks because they changed the consolidation rules so you can not sweep most of an army with one good assault unit.

 KingofAshes wrote:
40k is a sci-fi game not fantasy assault should be the weakest strategy to use in 40k. If you want to play an assault based game GW already makes a game for that it is called Fantasy. Every one complaining about free shooting rolling sixes is not free shooting. Tau normally have to use most of their army to stop one assault. Assault does not suck because of over watch it sucks because they changed the consolidation rules so you can not sweep most of an army with one good assault unit.

Then assault units should be super cheap. Because they lack efficacy. You don't get to have it both ways.

^exactly

I think that there should definitely be a CC penalty for shooting overwatch. It doesn't make sense you can fire a weapon in overwatch and attack normally after that you normally wouldn't be able to charge with after shooting.

I have to preface this by saying I've flip flopped my opinion on the state of assault rules. And to say 40k is shooty and fantasy is for banging swords is fallacious. Assault is a part of 40k. Is has an entire phase for gaks sake.

Now, if the rumors are true And we are getting 7th. One can be assured that at least one of these things will happen. Overwatch will be altered. Assault range will be altered (wether it be fixed range or gaining the distance regardless of a successful assault). Consolidating into combat may be allowed. Assaulting from outflank/ds will be allowed. If 7th happens at least one of these things will happen. I'm not saying 7th will happen but if it does, one of these changes if not all are coming. And you can take that to the bank.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I play tau and nids. Since 6th I have shelved my tau and focused on my nids.

Martel732 wrote:

 KingofAshes wrote:
40k is a sci-fi game not fantasy assault should be the weakest strategy to use in 40k. If you want to play an assault based game GW already makes a game for that it is called Fantasy. Every one complaining about free shooting rolling sixes is not free shooting. Tau normally have to use most of their army to stop one assault. Assault does not suck because of over watch it sucks because they changed the consolidation rules so you can not sweep most of an army with one good assault unit.

Then assault units should be super cheap. Because they lack efficacy. You don't get to have it both ways.

Assault units are as expensive as you want them to be Nids and Orks can spam really good assault units for less than ten points a model. A chaos space marine is something like fourteen points and will beat most shooty units in assault. You are asking for a umber unit that does not cost anything.

No, I'm pretty sure there is a number printed in most codices for assault elements. And under 6th ed rules, they are all too high.

Imnewherewheresthebathroom wrote:
I have to preface this by saying I've flip flopped my opinion on the state of assault rules. And to say 40k is shooty and fantasy is for banging swords is fallacious. Assault is a part of 40k. Is has an entire phase for gaks sake.

Now, if the rumors are true And we are getting 7th. One can be assured that at least one of these things will happen. Overwatch will be altered. Assault range will be altered (wether it be fixed range or gaining the distance regardless of a successful assault). Consolidating into combat may be allowed. Assaulting from outflank/ds will be allowed. If 7th happens at least one of these things will happen. I'm not saying 7th will happen but if it does, one of these changes if not all are coming. And you can take that to the bank.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I play tau and nids. Since 6th I have shelved my tau and focused on my nids.

Assault is part of 40k but it should not be the stronger strategy to use like it has been in previous edition. Assaulting should be a strategy used when the situation dictates it not I need to assault because assaulting is so much better than using the firearm in my hand.

If they're including super heavies in the standard rules, I hope they tweak some of their rules in the process. D-weapons, Stomp and SH explosions should be seriously toned down.

 KingofAshes wrote:
40k is a sci-fi game not fantasy assault should be the weakest strategy to use in 40k. If you want to play an assault based game GW already makes a game for that it is called Fantasy. Every one complaining about free shooting rolling sixes is not free shooting. Tau normally have to use most of their army to stop one assault. Assault does not suck because of over watch it sucks because they changed the consolidation rules so you can not sweep most of an army with one good assault unit.

That's all very nice and stuff, but it's science fantasy, not science fiction, so yeah...

Martel732 wrote:
No, I'm pretty sure there is a number printed in most codices for assault elements. And under 6th ed rules, they are all too high.

Most of the codexs have shooting models that are to expensive that is not an argument.

 KingofAshes wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
No, I'm pretty sure there is a number printed in most codices for assault elements. And under 6th ed rules, they are all too high.

Most of the codexs have shooting models that are to expensive that is not an argument.

Really? You want to go there? So if we make a lineup of overcosted models, how many of the top 10 are going to be assault models? Top 20? Top 50?

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 KingofAshes wrote:
40k is a sci-fi game not fantasy assault should be the weakest strategy to use in 40k. If you want to play an assault based game GW already makes a game for that it is called Fantasy. Every one complaining about free shooting rolling sixes is not free shooting. Tau normally have to use most of their army to stop one assault. Assault does not suck because of over watch it sucks because they changed the consolidation rules so you can not sweep most of an army with one good assault unit.

That's all very nice and stuff, but it's science fantasy, not science fiction, so yeah...

Just because you add the word fantasy suddenly a power weapon armed combatant should be stronger than a combatant welding a plasma rifle?

It's not a matter of what "should" be stronger its a matter of game balance. The game does not properly balance shooting and assault.

Attempting shooting has no downsides (barring a few rare cases) whereas attempting assault is extremely dangerous to the assaulting unit. If a unit is weak then it should be low cost so as to create greater threats. If a unit is strong it should cost more to limit spam and reduce supporting units.

Yay! Someone can do maths!

 KingofAshes wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 KingofAshes wrote:
40k is a sci-fi game not fantasy assault should be the weakest strategy to use in 40k. If you want to play an assault based game GW already makes a game for that it is called Fantasy. Every one complaining about free shooting rolling sixes is not free shooting. Tau normally have to use most of their army to stop one assault. Assault does not suck because of over watch it sucks because they changed the consolidation rules so you can not sweep most of an army with one good assault unit.

That's all very nice and stuff, but it's science fantasy, not science fiction, so yeah...

Just because you add the word fantasy suddenly a power weapon armed combatant should be stronger than a combatant welding a plasma rifle?

Yes.

Martel732 wrote:

 KingofAshes wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
No, I'm pretty sure there is a number printed in most codices for assault elements. And under 6th ed rules, they are all too high.

Most of the codexs have shooting models that are to expensive that is not an argument.

Really? You want to go there? So if we make a lineup of overcosted models, how many of the top 10 are going to be assault models? Top 20? Top 50?

Even if you lowered the points what made assault so good in 4th and 5th was the sweeping and consolidation rules. The argument I make is just like I no one uses overpriced shooting units don't use overpriced assault units. I would argue that most of the top overpriced units would be vehicles, and most of them are shooting.

It's hard to not use overpriced assault units when 90% of them are overpriced.

I'm not saying 7th will happen but if it does, one of these changes if not all are coming. And you can take that to the bank.

People, People, listen to me and be saved! PUT DOWN the Kool-Aid, please.
Did 6th fix 5th... NO, it broke 5th, infact it changed most everything.

Now you believe 7th will fix the broken 6th they had us drink! REALLY! Crap man they will be working on 8th shortly before releasing 7th.

Talk about taking it to the BANK..... While you are there, make a withdrawal to buy 7th.
Because their Kool-Aid is getting expensive!

Just Saying