Why aren't there Psker Chapter Masters?

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**Sir Samuel Buca**

Specialists within the chapter tend to act more as advisors than leaders, but they can take command if need be.
Tigurius commands a small part of the force at Damnos, he also led a campaign where the LotD appeared. Other than that, he mainly acts as an advisor to Calgar and the Captains.
Cassius, as a similar example, tends to lead a bit more. He leads a lot of campaigns against Tyranids, and he almost always takes command of the Tyrannic War Veterans groups.

It's all about the individual really, and how well respected they are within a chapter, but Chapter Master is traditionally a normal marine who worked up through the ranks.

**Waaaghpower**

AnomanderRake wrote:
There are Psyker Chapter Masters; Azariah Kyras is the only one mentioned by name in the fluff, but aside from other problems with him (Khorne-worshipping traitor Librarians? Seriously, Relic?) there's no reason you couldn't have a heavy-on-psykers Chapter with the Chief Librarian running the show. There are no rules for them because they're not the norm as to the Codex, let me throw together a guideline for the hell of it:

Chapter Master Librarian: WS 6, BS 5, S 4, T 4, W 4, I 5, A 4, Ld 10, Sv 3+. 150pts.
Unit: 1 Chapter Master Librarian. Infantry (Independent Character)
Equipment: Power armour, Psychic Hood, Force Weapon, Bolt Pistol, Frag and Krak Grenades, Iron Halo.
Special Rules: And They Shall Know No Fear, Chapter Tactics, Independent Character. Psyker (Mastery Level 3, access to any psychic Discipline in the core rules).
Options
May purchase a Storm Shield for +15pts, swap power armour for artificer armour for +20pts.
May replace bolt pistol with boltgun for free, or with an item from the Ranged Weapons list.
May purchase items from the Chapter Relics or Special-Issue Wargear Lists.
May trade all equipment for Terminator armour, a force sword, a psychic hood, a storm bolter, and an Iron Halo for +40pts. If so may not take any above options but may swap his storm bolter for a combi-weapon at +6pts or a storm shield at +5pts.
Mounted Assault: If the Librarian Chapter Master is on a Bike may take Bike squads of 5+ models in Troops.
Master of Psykers: In an army led by a Librarian Chapter Master all Librarians may access the Divination discipline, additionally Sergeants in Vanguard Veteran, Sternguard Veteran, Terminator, or Assault Terminator squads may purchase a single Psychic Mastery Level (with access to all core psychic Disciplines) at +30pts. Additionally your Alliance Level with Black Templars and Sisters of Battle becomes Desperate Allies.

Eeeh... That seems really overpowered. Just getting access to Divination alone is HUGE... Getting Prescience on all your Sternguard and Terminators for thirty points? Plus, for 25 points over a normal Chapter Master, you get the same close combat monster and a HUGE buff. Roll Biomancy with him, and you've got someone far tougher than a Daemon Prince for about 50 points less.

**AnomanderRake**

Waaaghpower wrote:
AnomanderRake wrote:
There are Psyker Chapter Masters; Azariah Kyras is the only one mentioned by name in the fluff, but aside from other problems with him (Khorne-worshipping traitor Librarians? Seriously, Relic?) there's no reason you couldn't have a heavy-on-psykers Chapter with the Chief Librarian running the show. There are no rules for them because they're not the norm as to the Codex, let me throw together a guideline for the hell of it:

Chapter Master Librarian: WS 6, BS 5, S 4, T 4, W 4, I 5, A 4, Ld 10, Sv 3+. 150pts.
Unit: 1 Chapter Master Librarian. Infantry (Independent Character)
Equipment: Power armour, Psychic Hood, Force Weapon, Bolt Pistol, Frag and Krak Grenades, Iron Halo.
Special Rules: And They Shall Know No Fear, Chapter Tactics, Independent Character. Psyker (Mastery Level 3, access to any psychic Discipline in the core rules).
Options
May purchase a Storm Shield for +15pts, swap power armour for artificer armour for +20pts.
May replace bolt pistol with boltgun for free, or with an item from the Ranged Weapons list.
May purchase items from the Chapter Relics or Special-Issue Wargear Lists.
May trade all equipment for Terminator armour, a force sword, a psychic hood, a storm bolter, and an Iron Halo for +40pts. If so may not take any above options but may swap his storm bolter for a combi-weapon at +6pts or a storm shield at +5pts.
Mounted Assault: If the Librarian Chapter Master is on a Bike may take Bike squads of 5+ models in Troops.
Master of Psykers: In an army led by a Librarian Chapter Master all Librarians may access the Divination discipline, additionally Sergeants in Vanguard Veteran, Sternguard Veteran, Terminator, or Assault Terminator squads may purchase a single Psychic Mastery Level (with access to all core psychic Disciplines) at +30pts. Additionally your Alliance Level with Black Templars and Sisters of Battle becomes Desperate Allies.

Eeeh... That seems really overpowered. Just getting access to Divination alone is HUGE... Getting Prescience on all your Sternguard and Terminators for thirty points? Plus, for 25 points over a normal Chapter Master, you get the same close combat monster and a HUGE buff. Roll Biomancy with him, and you've got someone far tougher than a Daemon Prince for about 50 points less.

Mostly 'cause it's a first draft. Probably would want to hike the price and limit the powers available to the squad leader sergeants. The point is that depending on the nature of the Chapter you're dealing with a Chaplain, Librarian, or maybe even a Techmarine or an Apothecary in the "Chapter Master" slot isn't all that far-fetched.

**Seb**

Everything but master of psykers and the total access to everything seems ok.

You can just take a look at bad@ss know psykers to have an idea of what a psyker chapter master would be like. Tigurius and Sevrin Loth come to mind.

(Oh, and I think that Ahriman is technically a psyker AND a chapter master).

**Wyzilla**

Seb wrote:
Everything but master of psykers and the total access to everything seems ok.

You can just take a look at bad@ss know psykers to have an idea of what a psyker chapter master would be like. Tigurius and Sevrin Loth come to mind.

(Oh, and I think that Ahriman is technically a psyker AND a chapter master).

And if he ever gets corrupted, he brings the entire Chapter down to Chaos. Psyker Chapter Masters are simply a liability, nothing more.

**Furyou Miko**

Ahriman isn't a chapter master, lol. He's the Chief Librarian of a Legion, or he was until he went rogue. The Thousand Sons never had a chapter master because they never lost their Primarch and, well, because technically they're still a Legion, albeit a chapter-sized one.

Anyway, you can't give blanket Divination to Marine psykers - it's Tigurius' special Schtick, and the Mantis Warriors' main Chapter Tactic.

**SRSFACE**

KorPhaeron77 wrote:

Is the DA Chapter master a Librarian? I wasn't aware of that. If he isn't then I don't really see your point. Just because you think DA don't play by the rules doesn't mean that they would stick a Librarian in charge. I'd also obviously have no problem if someone wants to make up their own backstory, that's totally up to them. But the OP wanted to know why they don't lead Chapters.

I meant they are definitely part of the command structure of the Dark Angels, in a big way. The Dark Angels librarius is part of their inner circle, which runs it and all the Unforgiven chapters (as the successors of the Dark Angels are known.) They take a more active leading role in the Dark Angels as a result.

And for the most part, Dark Angels are codex adherent. They structure their first and second companies differently is all, and have a secret organization within the command structure. That's hardly unprecedented in the fluff for other chapters, though the secrecy of it is kind of a unique Dark Angels thing. I could see Ezekiel running the Dark Angels chapter if Azrael and Belial and Saffron (chief chaplain, not a unit on the table but really important fluff wise) all died somehow.

**Furyou Miko**

Wait, what? Azrael (angel), Ezekiel (prophet), Belial (Demon)... and Saffron (herb)?

Butter, milk, eggs, squick, anyone?

I doubt he's named after the phoenix in Ranma 1/2, after all.

**Ascalam**

Maybe he's named after Mrs Reynolds in Firefly.

That would be HILARIOUS.

We could call him yo-saf-brig..

**AnomanderRake**

Wyzilla wrote:
Seb wrote:
Everything but master of psykers and the total access to everything seems ok.

You can just take a look at bad@ss know psykers to have an idea of what a psyker chapter master would be like. Tigurius and Sevrin Loth come to mind.

(Oh, and I think that Ahriman is technically a psyker AND a chapter master).

And if he ever gets corrupted, he brings the entire Chapter down to Chaos. Psyker Chapter Masters are simply a liability, nothing more.

Counterexample (spoilers for Dawn of War 2 follow): Azariah Kyras. Corrupted. Killed by a Captain serving with his own Honour Guard, replaced by the Captain of the Third Company.

**Wyzilla**

AnomanderRake wrote:
Wyzilla wrote:
Seb wrote:
Everything but master of psykers and the total access to everything seems ok.

You can just take a look at bad@ss know psykers to have an idea of what a psyker chapter master would be like. Tigurius and Sevrin Loth come to mind.

(Oh, and I think that Ahriman is technically a psyker AND a chapter master).

And if he ever gets corrupted, he brings the entire Chapter down to Chaos. Psyker Chapter Masters are simply a liability, nothing more.

Counterexample (spoilers for Dawn of War 2 follow): Azariah Kyras. Corrupted. Killed by a Captain serving with his own Honour Guard, replaced by the Captain of the Third Company.

And he still nearly destroyed the entire Chapter and wrought horrific damage on both the Chapter and the sub-system, which lead to the Blood Ravens sustaining massive casualties and losing their entire home system and forcing them onto a penitent crusade as a now fleet-based chapter.

If anything, Kyras is the perfect example of why the hell you keep your leaders from being a psyker.

**AnomanderRake**

And the head Chaplain for the Dark Angels is named Sapphon, not Saffron. The etymology isn't much more inspiring, though (Sappho being the masculine pseudonym of a Greek poetess of the sixth century BC who wrote a lot of love poems to women).

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Wyzilla wrote:
AnomanderRake wrote:
Wyzilla wrote:
Seb wrote:
Everything but master of psykers and the total access to everything seems ok.

You can just take a look at bad@ss know psykers to have an idea of what a psyker chapter master would be like. Tigurius and Sevrin Loth come to mind.

(Oh, and I think that Ahriman is technically a psyker AND a chapter master).

And if he ever gets corrupted, he brings the entire Chapter down to Chaos. Psyker Chapter Masters are simply a liability, nothing more.

Counterexample (spoilers for Dawn of War 2 follow): Azariah Kyras. Corrupted. Killed by a Captain serving with his own Honour Guard, replaced by the Captain of the Third Company.

And he still nearly destroyed the entire Chapter and wrought horrific damage on both the Chapter and the sub-system, which lead to the Blood Ravens sustaining massive casualties and losing their entire home system and forcing them onto a penitent crusade as a now fleet-based chapter.

If anything, Kyras is the perfect example of why the hell you keep your leaders from being a psyker.

Any Chapter Master that goes south is going to lead to serious problems.

**Wyzilla**

AnomanderRake wrote:
And the head Chaplain for the Dark Angels is named Sapphon, not Saffron. The etymology isn't much more inspiring, though (Sappho being the masculine pseudonym of a Greek poetess of the sixth century BC who wrote a lot of love poems to women).

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Wyzilla wrote:
AnomanderRake wrote:
Wyzilla wrote:
Seb wrote:
Everything but master of psykers and the total access to everything seems ok.

You can just take a look at bad@ss know psykers to have an idea of what a psyker chapter master would be like. Tigurius and Sevrin Loth come to mind.

(Oh, and I think that Ahriman is technically a psyker AND a chapter master).

And if he ever gets corrupted, he brings the entire Chapter down to Chaos. Psyker Chapter Masters are simply a liability, nothing more.

Counterexample (spoilers for Dawn of War 2 follow): Azariah Kyras. Corrupted. Killed by a Captain serving with his own Honour Guard, replaced by the Captain of the Third Company.

And he still nearly destroyed the entire Chapter and wrought horrific damage on both the Chapter and the sub-system, which lead to the Blood Ravens sustaining massive casualties and losing their entire home system and forcing them onto a penitent crusade as a now fleet-based chapter.

If anything, Kyras is the perfect example of why the hell you keep your leaders from being a psyker.

Any Chapter Master that goes south is going to lead to serious problems.

You're missing the point. Kyras was a psyker. Any psyker that happens to be in a position of power of commanding the whole chapter is a massive liability so long as he holds the position, as a psyker is OOM more likely to fall to Chaos than one with no sensitive connection to the Warp.