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Magic won me the game against woodelves the other day due to freak chain lightening using lore of the heavens.

But for my second game I am up against a close combat style empire army, and lore of the heavens doesnt seem like the right lore to use this time. Mainly because a lot of the offensive spells are D6 S6 which seems a bit over kill to me.

So against an empire army (I have the list) which is built around special character buffs, close combat orientated backed by 2 cannons which lore would you use?

What army are you using?

Sorry failed to mention that. I am also using empire.

 Swastakowey wrote:
Sorry failed to mention that. I am also using empire.

If he's got lots of big units, kill it with Fire.

If he's running about with tonnes of 1+ saves, Metal will turn up the heat.

If he's going for elite combat units/combat synergies, Light will, erm, light your way...

Experiment 626 wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:
Sorry failed to mention that. I am also using empire.

If he's got lots of big units, kill it with Fire.

If he's running about with tonnes of 1+ saves, Metal will turn up the heat.

If he's going for elite combat units/combat synergies, Light will, erm, light your way...

Judging from his list he is doing synergies (characters and magic buffs on a range of units). It looks like synergies rather than one particular focus.

Ok, so what makes light good for this? (as I dont have my mini rule book on me, just a brief description on why).

Also for his knights and demygryphs, shall I use my level 2 wizard as a metal lore one?

Without knowing what your army includes or what level your Wizards are I will take a blind leap and say:

If your opponent has lots of heavy armor then take Metal as it is great against heavy armor.

If he depends on a lot of characters go with Death as it has a few sniper style spells to put pressure on them early.

But my experience is fairly limited in the synergy of magic so I usually stick with Fire because it is fairly simple to get right.

If you want to specifically target his Demigryphs and Knights go Beasts. It has advantages against cavalry and monsters.

Generally speaking, the lore of Magic you used is best chosen over the type of army you're taking, as opposed to the one your opponent's taking, especially Empire, who don't have any targetable low characteristics like Ogres or Lizardmen do.

From what I know, sounds like Lore of Life would do alright. Dwellers is pretty good on Empire, Flesh to Stone, Regrowth and Earthblood will all mitigate the damage done by his combat blocks and Shield of Thorns will punish his need to get into combat.

Ok, (sorry this is my second game, I had no idea magic was like this haha).

I have like 50-60 muskets (in ten man groups)

A unit of 24 halberd men

3 great cannon

1 volley gun

24 knights (with the +1 S, not sure what weapons yet)

1 general (not sure which gear)

1 Lvl 4 wizard

1 level 2 wizard

2 master engineers.

Be aware that thats roughly what I will have as its not complete yet. Its a fragile gunlist but it won my tutorial games and won my first real game. But I dont expect many more wonders to come from it like the last agme.

So now im thinking, lore of light on the level 4

lore of beasts on level 2?

If you're going to try and outfight him in hand-to-hand, you want Lore of Light due to spells like:
1. Birona's Timewarp
Gives your unit the Always Strikes First, +1A and critically double movement for added shenanigans. Most importantly for combat though is ASF as it means you'll hit first and if your initiative value is equal or higher than his, you also get to re-roll any misses!
If you've ever fought elves, you'll quickly understand just how derpy-good this ability is, especially on units with high strength attacks.

2. Pha's Protection
Makes you harder to hit, including with shooting attacks. Shooting that doesn't roll to-hit such as cannons or stone throwers also have a chance at not working vs. your protected unit.
In combat, this basically gives your unit the equivalent of the highly feared Mark of Nurgle ability, which is one of the main reason why fighting Chaos Warriors head-on tends to be full of fail.

3. Speed of Light
Automatically maxes both your WS & I characteristics. Gets really, really, really powerful when you combine with one or both of the above spells for obvious reasons!
Vs. other Empire units who tend to have only average WS at best, it can mean that your opponent might likely require 6's to actually hit your unit(s) in combat.

4. Banishment/Burning Gaze
Your damage dealers. Banishment gets stronger the more Light Wizards you have on the table, and is exceptional vs. any unit/lone character that sports a Ward save as it forces those to be re-rolled! It's also great at nuking Daemons/Undead with extra hits.

5. Net of Amnytok
Normally a fairly 'meh' spell, but vs. Empire it's not too shabby since it means your opponent has a 50/50 shot at not being able to carry out their desired action with the effected unit.

6. Light of Battle
Not needed if you properly position your General & BSB and also know to stop those -Ld spells the enemy might toss your way, but in a pinch it's handy, especially for an average Ld army like Empire.


Light gives a fighty Empire army everything it could ever dream of, with the added bonus of it's spells being low-cost and thus pretty easy for any Lv4 to cast. (hell, even Lv2's can do well with spells like Burning Gaze or Net!)
And best of all, the three stat-boosting augments can all be boosted to give a bubble effect of 12", meaning you can cover multiple units across your battle line.

Experiment 626 wrote:
If you're going to try and outfight him in hand-to-hand, you want Lore of Light due to spells like:
1. Birona's Timewarp
Gives your unit the Always Strikes First, +1A and critically double movement for added shenanigans. Most importantly for combat though is ASF as it means you'll hit first and if your initiative value is equal or higher than his, you also get to re-roll any misses!
If you've ever fought elves, you'll quickly understand just how derpy-good this ability is, especially on units with high strength attacks.

2. Pha's Protection
Makes you harder to hit, including with shooting attacks. Shooting that doesn't roll to-hit such as cannons or stone throwers also have a chance at not working vs. your protected unit.
In combat, this basically gives your unit the equivalent of the highly feared Mark of Nurgle ability, which is one of the main reason why fighting Chaos Warriors head-on tends to be full of fail.

3. Speed of Light
Automatically maxes both your WS & I characteristics. Gets really, really, really powerful when you combine with one or both of the above spells for obvious reasons!
Vs. other Empire units who tend to have only average WS at best, it can mean that your opponent might likely require 6's to actually hit your unit(s) in combat.

4. Banishment/Burning Gaze
Your damage dealers. Banishment gets stronger the more Light Wizards you have on the table, and is exceptional vs. any unit/lone character that sports a Ward save as it forces those to be re-rolled! It's also great at nuking Daemons/Undead with extra hits.

5. Net of Amnytok
Normally a fairly 'meh' spell, but vs. Empire it's not too shabby since it means your opponent has a 50/50 shot at not being able to carry out their desired action with the effected unit.

6. Light of Battle
Not needed if you properly position your General & BSB and also know to stop those -Ld spells the enemy might toss your way, but in a pinch it's handy, especially for an average Ld army like Empire.


Light gives a fighty Empire army everything it could ever dream of, with the added bonus of it's spells being low-cost and thus pretty easy for any Lv4 to cast. (hell, even Lv2's can do well with spells like Burning Gaze or Net!)
And best of all, the three stat-boosting augments can all be boosted to give a bubble effect of 12", meaning you can cover multiple units across your battle line.

How does the first spell effect knights? Is it worth putting my level 2 on the knights with great swords (and +1S) the doubling their movement (hopefully) and giving them strike first? Or do they still strike last with great weapons?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Remember I am using a gunline due to the models I have.

I think for a typical combined arms empire list, I'd suggest a LVL 4 of light/life and lvl2 of metal/beasts. I think light/beasts is best, but if you have a lot of chaos warriors, demis, mournfang, metal can be good. but against DOC, Skaven, OnG it's good against like 3 units.

Regarding placing a wizard with knights, I really like the idea of a beast wizard with knights, since the range on normal wildform is only 12" however it does take Transformation off the table, and that is a potential game winner at the right moment.

You could try to pick off his heroes with death magic, but with so little fighting power, I don't think he even needs the synergies to beat a gunline, all he has to do is get there.

I'd consider lore of fire. I don't normally recommend it, but your knights don't really need a buff, and buffing 10 man handgunner units is a waste. Hexing him would only pay off if he's running a death star, and in a synergy type list, he'll have more units than you can hex.
That pretty much leaves direct damage, and against empire, fire is a pretty good choice.

I'd keep the lore of beast on the level 2, or switch him to fire as well, and take the ruby ring. That would max out the fire lore attribute, the +D3 to casting can really work out well.

For lore of fire, the best spell is Flame Cage (it's a hex, so you can cast it into combat), and fireball. Piercing Bolts is too hard to cast for how many hits you get, and Firestorm is too random unless your opponent has a stupidly large block of infantry.

-Matt

So if you're using predominately a gunline, consider Lore of Heavens on your Lvl4. It itself is somewhat of a gun-line, as it contains some very powerful magic missiles, but it also augments your shooting ability and can be used to push enemy unit backwards, as well as make them re-roll 6s to save. Furthermore, it's Lore Attribute further punishes flying units, which is very handy with dealing with units such as Demigryph knights that are likely to close with your lines quickly.

 The Shadow wrote:
So if you're using predominately a gunline, consider Lore of Heavens on your Lvl4. It itself is somewhat of a gun-line, as it contains some very powerful magic missiles, but it also augments your shooting ability and can be used to push enemy unit backwards, as well as make them re-roll 6s to save. Furthermore, it's Lore Attribute further punishes flying units, which is very handy with dealing with units such as Demigryph knights that are likely to close with your lines quickly.

Yea well I have been using the lore of heavens to great effect, for example against wood elves I used the commit to force the wood elves in range of my guns, The high strength attacks really hurt his monsters and so forth.

I agree that I dont need too much buffs and de buffs as nothing in my army (mostly) will stand up to enemy combat anyway, which is why I asked for help because the S6 seems a bit over kill for mere humans.

So (judging by every bodies comments) ill go lore of beast on level 2, and lore of heavens on level 4,

I have 3 cannon so I can just try to "snipe" his characters out of the units early.

I would suggest turning 1 cannon into a mortar saves some points, and is good vs cheap blocks of infantry.

 Arbiter wrote:
I would suggest turning 1 cannon into a mortar saves some points, and is good vs cheap blocks of infantry.

I have nothing to full out those points though, is it actually worth getting? Im hoping my hell blaster does works against the blocks of infantry.