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Id like to see a new tactical choice involved in the assault phase to make it more dynamic.

As the one getting charged, you'd have the following options:

Overwatch, as normal now.

Brace: instead of firing Overwatch, you take a defensive stance granting you +1 toughness for one round

Deter: attempt to flee from the incoming attack, fall back 1D3 inches. No Overwatch, this happens before the charge range is measured so it can make a charge distance longer. If this option is chosen, the unit, if it has fearless, losses it.
The assaulting squad gains fear USR.

I think this would make assault a little more interesting!

Thoughts?

I like it, it's interesting. I might take the fear part out of deter though, depends on how it played. I would say to add a counter-attack type option, buts that's a USR.

Yeah, the gaining fear part was more because I imaginethe squad that elects to deter would likely be afraid of the oncoming attack and attempting to prematurely flee.

Thus causing them to lose any type of fearless, and the attackers gaining fear due to the cowardice of the fleeing enemy.

Although, I did ponder other advantages for the attacking unit. If you can make the charge distance larger, the attacker should gain a temporary benefit for still getting there.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
I would say to add a counter-attack type option

I would definately agree with a 4th option - Counter Attack - The Assaulted unit gains the CA USR and gets to move D3" towards the Charging unit. (one or both sides also gain HoW ? or am i getting too greedy with that ? )
This is for all the assault units that get charged ie, CC termies, DC, ASM etc. are they really gonna shoot ? or would they charge straight back at them ? haha

thats just my 2c ... i like all your other options though, but also agree maybe do without fear on Deter ?

What's the point? There are allready no regular assault troops on boards. It's basically restricted to fast, tough deathstars and monstrous creatures. And +1 toughness/+1 attack/extra fall back only further harms regular assaulters and buffs deathstar's defensive mellee abilities. There will literally be no point in charging many things like t7 MCs, bikers with t6. Annoying wraithknights will be harder to down with increased number of attacks. Adding this rules is like: "We want to make regular assault troops even worse than before and buff mcs and deathstars even further"

If this was to be done then I would also want to add some restrictions, such as if you use defensive gernades you cannot overwatch (as your to busy throwing your gernades to fire). Same thing with counter attack, if you use the counter attack special rule then you cannot over watch.

Sacrificing overwatch is an interesting concept, but it is by no means as incredible as some of your proposed rules. Overwatch from a tactical squad firing upon MEQs equates to a little over 0.55 deaths. So if we're rounding up, you managed to kill a single charging model. Yes that model being removed may have prevented an assault, but usually the next model will carry the day. That in mind I would propose the following amendments.

Brace sounds good, however I would say that the "bracing" unit drops to initiative 1. If they are bracing for an incoming attack they will need to be locked up tightly and won't be able to easily retaliate. From a numbers standpoint if you give the defending unit a bonus to their toughness it actually puts the defenders and attackers on equal footing and negates the bonus attack. So you're giving assault units even LESS of an incentive to attempt to get into close combat.

Deter hurts assaulting units even more so. Unreliable charge distances are already a burden, thinking that my opponent could move back a further 1-3 inches makes the prospect nearly impossible. If my charge distance fails, the unit will more than likely be far enough back to rally and have the chance to shoot me yet again. I couldn't imagine any opponent gambling the chance of killing one of my assaulting models with overwatch when they could scoot back a couple inches and ruin my assault. They'll wipe out the unit in their following turn and laugh at me for even trying to get so close. If you want to boost a shooting unit even more so than they already are, then you have to add dire consequences as well. This is already a shooting edition, there is no need to add to that.

Deter can instead be "The unit may choose to fall back D3 inches. However, if the unit is caught by the assaulting unit, then the fleeing unit is completely wiped out regardless of USRs or saving throws. (Fluff reason being they were entirely unprepared)." Now the defending player has to weigh their options, do you scoot back and hope they fail the charge or do you stand and fire a few shots. It balances by benefiting both players since the assaulting unit could potentially sweep an enemy unit and consolidate towards another, or the charge will fail and the attacks will be shot to pieces in the following round.

I think this is a really cool idea. I think that +1T is too much. it sounds ok for T3 or 4 guys but once you get up to plagumarines and MoN bikers being T6 and 7 it just doesn't seem to balance in the right direction. Maybe the option to increase initiative or WS a point by being ready for the attack.

I like the retreat too and agree with GreyChaos here that there needs to be a real risk for trying to flee and was thinking the same thing. If the charge succeeds the fleeing unit is auto-swept.

Maybe instead of counter attack, go for some kind of counter charge. This would mean both sides count as having charged and that the original charge auto-succeeds. This would be good for assault units like bzerks that rely on doing the charging.

I agree about the toughness can be over powered in many circumstances, I would say they can brace themselves on a roll of 3+ if their initiative is less then the attackers majority they get to strike simultaneously. If their initiative is equal to or higher they get +1 initiative even though if you are higher it won't matter in most situations. Maybe you don't need to roll for a 3+ its just overwatch is not guaranteed, why should the other options be? I also like the deter rule, that is actually really cool and can turn out to be a pain though, when you need a 11 inch charge for example and you make it, but oh, no you don't I just moved 2" away from you, SORRY!

I'd transplant Fantasy's system. You either recieve the charge, firing overwatch as you do so, or you may attempt to flee. Flight is essentially an automatic Fall Back resolved before the charge dice are rolled. If the chargers make contact with your fleeing unit they sweep it. Charges may opt to target a new unit with their charge instead if the original target flees.

That's gona make marines super-effective cause they auto-regroup and recieve no penalties and can't be swept if they fail a fall-back move. But overall it's a great idea! Maybe it should specifically nerf atsknf a bit?

I agree I completely overshot the deter. I love the ideas grey posted. It should be something where you are desperately trying to flee the oncoming attack. Instead of firing over watch, you fall back d3" and if still caught are swept regardless of any saving rules or whatnot.

If you successfully fled using deter, on your next turn, you can only not move, exhausted from fleeing, and can only fire snap shots, still in a panic from running.

If you attempted an assault, and didn't make it due to the enemy using deter, in your next assault phase, that unit gains preferred enemy. To signify how peeved they are that the enemy got away from their grasp.

Mike94656 wrote:
Yeah, the gaining fear part was more because I imaginethe squad that elects to deter would likely be afraid of the oncoming attack and attempting to prematurely flee.

Thus causing them to lose any type of fearless, and the attackers gaining fear due to the cowardice of the fleeing enemy.

Although, I did ponder other advantages for the attacking unit. If you can make the charge distance larger, the attacker should gain a temporary benefit for still getting there.

This is a great idea and it would work except that Fear is kind of useless because so many USRs or gear or whatever it is, negates the effects of Fear. Now if you wrote in some kind of thing that made the fleeing squad prone to Fear no matter what then it would work as you intend.

How about breaking Deter into two options?

Withdraw: Defender moves away from the chargers D3" inches, but strikes back at Initiative 1.

Flee: The defenders turn tail and run away, using the Fallback rules. If the chargers manage to still contact the unit, they are swept. Fearless units and units with AtSKNF cannot choose this option.

and perhaps call the countercharge Rush or Advance. "Defenders" can reroll one attack per model (not *quite* as good as an extra attack, but certainly useful)

 koooaei wrote:
What's the point? There are allready no regular assault troops on boards. It's basically restricted to fast, tough deathstars and monstrous creatures. And +1 toughness/+1 attack/extra fall back only further harms regular assaulters and buffs deathstar's defensive mellee abilities. There will literally be no point in charging many things like t7 MCs, bikers with t6. Annoying wraithknights will be harder to down with increased number of attacks. Adding this rules is like: "We want to make regular assault troops even worse than before and buff mcs and deathstars even further"

Do you call dogs a tough deathstar?

I mean, I know they're two wounders with a 5++, but dogs of khorne are far too cheap to be a deathstar, and 10 of them (160 points) can reliably get into assault.

I'm talking about 90% mellee units like sluggaboyz, khorne zerks, genestealers, commandoes, wytches, etc. that are allready hurt so much - they need a notisable buff and not another debuff like extra retreat, toughness or counter-attack for the charged unit.

Meet: unit being charged gets counter-attack, and the charge auto succeeds without a distance roll. (Still must be within 12" to declare a charge.)

Overwatch: As normal, except you may not fire in the following shooting phase.

Flee: fearless units may not choose this option. The defending unit willingly flees as a normal fallback move. If they are still caught by the attacking unit, they are swept. The attacker may choose to charge a different unit instead, before checking charge range. The fleeing unit counts as fleeing in all aspects, and must Ld check to regroup or continue to flee on its turn etc.
(Note that I specifically allowed atsknf models to make use of this, as its a nice tactical option to add to marines, who could honestly use a new special rule in their favor.)

niv-mizzet wrote:
Meet: unit being charged gets counter-attack, and the charge auto succeeds without a distance roll. (Still must be within 12" to declare a charge.)

Overwatch: As normal, except you may not fire in the following shooting phase.

Flee: fearless units may not choose this option. The defending unit willingly flees as a normal fallback move. If they are still caught by the attacking unit, they are swept. The attacker may choose to charge a different unit instead, before checking charge range. The fleeing unit counts as fleeing in all aspects, and must Ld check to regroup or continue to flee on its turn etc.
(Note that I specifically allowed atsknf models to make use of this, as its a nice tactical option to add to marines, who could honestly use a new special rule in their favor.)

your' Meet option would make already hard things exceptionally hard as they then get the same attacks as the charger eg you charge my TH/SS Termies with a few killakans now I get 3 attacks per termie, and didn't have any other option really anyway.

Overwatch should be give up a phase of shooting, agreed.

Flee shouldn't be an option for marines if they can just regroup, who wouldn't do it, even assault marines would just flee then hope you fail and they can shoot you at full BS then try to assault themselves from far closer than you were.

The charge range in 40K is too small to effectively redirect, its one thing for Elven knights or a dragon with charge ranges of 11" to 22" to redirect its totally different when you have a 2-12" range with penalties for terrain etc.