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I am just getting back into 40k after a 4 year break and it seems like vanguard vets went from being considered a great assault unit to being called a worthless entry in the new codex. I was hoping to use a squad of them in some games as a line breaker unit but it sounds like they would simply die before they even earn their points.

Is there any hope for bringing this unit back into the fold or would I be considered a laughing stock for fielding them?

Actually, you're misremembering it. They weren't ever good in the core marine book. They're just too many points for a marine, even if he can have shiny combat toys. Even with charging off the deep strike, the scatter variance made it a crapshoot and you can't even do that anymore. Only Blood Angels could ever make any good use of them because of Descent of Angels.

They won't make it to combat unless you pay a lot of extra points (Assault transport or jump packs and lots of bodies and storm shields). They won't do anything in combat unless you pay even more points. And still, at the end of the day, they're just marines. Standard weight of fire erases them the same. These aren't new vulnerabilities either. Vanguard have been consistently bad in C:SM for their entire lifespan. They are a textbook little Timmy unit.

A 15% point bump gets you an extra attack and better leadership compared to regular assault marines, as well as filling a less crowded FOC slot. That might seem like a good deal... assuming that you consider assault marines good in the first place (a lot of people don't).

A separate issue is whether it is worth it for them to take power weapons or storm shields. I would sort of laugh at that - each marine would have to kill 40pts worth of stuff just to make back their cost, and they are terribly vulnerable to long-ranged AP2 stuff... unless you huddle behind LOS blocking terrain, which seems like a terrible waste.

Alright so the main issue is that, after wargear, you are paying the cost of an assault terminator squad and then some but sacrificing the durability for a speed increase and sweeping advance. So sticking a squad of them in a Redeemer probably wouldn't work out the best?

Too expensive, too few options, and not as good at what they do as other options in the codex. I'm a big fan of trying to make any unit work, but the Vanguard Vets are a really hard sell. Even in the last edition they sucked, but you could still get some use out of them if you planned for it. With the loss of Deep Strike assaults, they kind of blow.

VV have always been garbage. They actually actually BETTER now, imo. Price is so important. How many bodies can you put down to be ion accelerated off the table?

 DanielBeaver wrote:
A 15% point bump gets you an extra attack and better leadership compared to regular assault marines, as well as filling a less crowded FOC slot. That might seem like a good deal... assuming that you consider assault marines good in the first place (a lot of people don't).

That's the issue, you compare to assault marines.

Assault marines are so bad, that being better then them means practically nothing.

 Verstaka wrote:
Alright so the main issue is that, after wargear, you are paying the cost of an assault terminator squad and then some but sacrificing the durability for a speed increase and sweeping advance. So sticking a squad of them in a Redeemer probably wouldn't work out the best?

In essence, yes. You are getting less for your point expenditure compared to the now-mediocre assault Terminator squad.

Redeemers are still the worst raider variant in existence. You need to be literally point blank and surrounded to make its sponsons even relevant.

Don't get me wrong, I love the idea of posthuman melee specialists charging out of a vehicle spitting flaming death around them. But their rules are so inefficient that it's just not going to happen like that. You'll roll up, get out, not get to flame anyone because template sponsons suck, wipe out one unit on the charge, then lose everything to point blank shooting on their turn. Hooray, you traded 500 points for the bubble-wrapping kroot or tactical squad that was out front just to get murdered.

Land Raiders in general should be awesome in the S6/7 meta, but cost so much they are STILL marginal at best.

So, not to get too off topic, do SM have access to any assault troops that would be considered good in the current meta aside from TH termies?

Martel732 wrote:
Land Raiders in general should be awesome in the S6/7 meta, but cost so much they are STILL marginal at best.

Mainly because a Meltagun or equivalent AP1 weapon has a 50% chance of one-shotting it.Even including BS and chance to pen, a single 24 point marine with a Meltagun has a 1/4 chance to pop a Raider.

 Verstaka wrote:
So, not to get too off topic, do SM have access to any assault troops that would be considered good in the current meta aside from TH termies?

Honour Guard are decent, because they're actually slightly more survivable per point against AP3+ than a normal Marine. Of course they're also much more vulnerable to AP2 per point, but yeah...

White Scars Command Dquads are very good

Waaaghpower wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Land Raiders in general should be awesome in the S6/7 meta, but cost so much they are STILL marginal at best.

Mainly because a Meltagun or equivalent AP1 weapon has a 50% chance of one-shotting it.Even including BS and chance to pen, a single 24 point marine with a Meltagun has a 1/4 chance to pop a Raider.

That and their dakka sucks out loud.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Verstaka wrote:
So, not to get too off topic, do SM have access to any assault troops that would be considered good in the current meta aside from TH termies?

Honour Guard are decent, because they're actually slightly more survivable per point against AP3+ than a normal Marine. Of course they're also much more vulnerable to AP2 per point, but yeah...

They are on foot. Bleh.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
White Scars Command Dquads are very good

They are passable. Nothing more.

 Verstaka wrote:
So, not to get too off topic, do SM have access to any assault troops that would be considered good in the current meta aside from TH termies?

Yes. Honour Guard are amazing for the cost. You get a 2+ save and a choice of power weapon as a default, and while they necessitate a Chapter Master, they also work very well with one, as he can tank wounds for them and massively boost the CC potential. Coming out of a Land Raider (preferably a Crusader) they are a great linebreaker.

Assault Marines are good as bully units against backfield weak targets, but can't go one on one with dedicated CC units (not that they ever could or were meant to, they are best at killing troops and support units)

 Paradigm wrote:

 Verstaka wrote:
So, not to get too off topic, do SM have access to any assault troops that would be considered good in the current meta aside from TH termies?

Yes. Honour Guard are amazing for the cost. You get a 2+ save and a choice of power weapon as a default, and while they necessitate a Chapter Master, they also work very well with one, as he can tank wounds for them and massively boost the CC potential. Coming out of a Land Raider (preferably a Crusader) they are a great linebreaker.

Assault Marines are good as bully units against backfield weak targets, but can't go one on one with dedicated CC units (not that they ever could or were meant to, they are best at killing troops and support units)

You are paying for a land raider. Autofail right there as an "amazing" unit.

The cost of a Land Raider is perfectly justifiable as far as I'm concerned.

The Crusader has firepower slightly better than a full tactical squad once you throw on a Multi-melta, which means you're paying around 100 points for complete immunity to small arms, a huge transport capacity that hugely boots the usefulness of another unit, and far greater mobility. More than fair in my opinion.

Except in practice they usually fall flat. They kind of add up on paper, but their lack of efficacious dakka dooms them. I can't remember the last time I lost to a LR-using list. They just can't kill the BA fast enough.

Playing other meqs always spoils me though. If I have models left after turn 3, I view my opponent as a slacker. And marines can't pull that off. Even the mighty grav guns are tickle-cannons to BA compared to ion accelerators.

Martel732 wrote:

 Paradigm wrote:

 Verstaka wrote:
So, not to get too off topic, do SM have access to any assault troops that would be considered good in the current meta aside from TH termies?

Yes. Honour Guard are amazing for the cost. You get a 2+ save and a choice of power weapon as a default, and while they necessitate a Chapter Master, they also work very well with one, as he can tank wounds for them and massively boost the CC potential. Coming out of a Land Raider (preferably a Crusader) they are a great linebreaker.

Assault Marines are good as bully units against backfield weak targets, but can't go one on one with dedicated CC units (not that they ever could or were meant to, they are best at killing troops and support units)

You are paying for a land raider. Autofail right there as an "amazing" unit.

What? How does that make them unable to be amazing? All you've done in this thread is come in and throw out one liners about a unit and say it sucks. How about a little thought to be taken seriously.

Honor Guard are amazing units. Especially with that chapter banner. What sucks is that they can't have bikes or assault packs, or get an apothecary in there. But other than that there isn't much of a downside to them.

Edit: you ninja'd me there a little. But I don't think that a Land Raiders firepower is too bad. Two twin linked las cannons is pretty good. Throw in a heavy Bolger and it's a little better. Give it a melta and you're good to go. Plus it's an assault vehicle, with 4 hull points and AV 14 all around. I find them to be worth it. And it may not be the land raider that is bad. It could be user error in the games you've played against them.

Martel732 wrote:

Playing other meqs always spoils me though. If I have models left after turn 3, I view my opponent as a slacker. And marines can't pull that off. Even the mighty grav guns are tickle-cannons to BA compared to ion accelerators.

And there we go. From what you're saying, you've adopted the viewpoint that all marine armies are doomed to fail, rather than looking for ways to make them work. The Marine Codex is perfectly playable, but you do seem resigned to the fact it's not any good.

"What sucks is that they can't have bikes or assault packs, or get an apothecary in there. But other than that there isn't much of a downside to them."

Do they need more downside? They are cheaper, footbound sanguinary guard. Do know how fast SG get picked up in my average games?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Paradigm wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

Playing other meqs always spoils me though. If I have models left after turn 3, I view my opponent as a slacker. And marines can't pull that off. Even the mighty grav guns are tickle-cannons to BA compared to ion accelerators.

And there we go. From what you're saying, you've adopted the viewpoint that all marine armies are doomed to fail, rather than looking for ways to make them work. The Marine Codex is perfectly playable, but you do seem resigned to the fact it's not any good.

Well. Marines can't table me in 3 turns by ignoring all my BA defenses. That has a tendency to make me rank them lower than the codices that can. If by doomed to fail, you mean have a sub-50% win rate, then yes I guess that's what I'm saying.

Martel732 wrote:
"What sucks is that they can't have bikes or assault packs, or get an apothecary in there. But other than that there isn't much of a downside to them."

Do they need more downside? They are cheaper, footbound sanguinary guard. Do know how fast SG get picked up in my average games?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Paradigm wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

Playing other meqs always spoils me though. If I have models left after turn 3, I view my opponent as a slacker. And marines can't pull that off. Even the mighty grav guns are tickle-cannons to BA compared to ion accelerators.

And there we go. From what you're saying, you've adopted the viewpoint that all marine armies are doomed to fail, rather than looking for ways to make them work. The Marine Codex is perfectly playable, but you do seem resigned to the fact it's not any good.

Well. Marines can't table me in 3 turns by ignoring all my BA defenses. That has a tendency to make me rank them lower than the codices that can.

One of the major differences to Sanguinary Guard though is that they can take Drop Pods, making them usable in Drop Pod lists.

I've tried and tried with drop pod DC. Drop pod assault troops are just asking to be obliterated. I can't get behind that.

Look people. Marine durability is at its lowest point since 2nd. All these special troops and gimmicks they put in our codices usually are not improved durability, they are adding some stupid trick that doesn't fly in the face of massed S6/7 or ion accelerators. The gimmicks look usable against other meq lists because meq lists have crap firepower. Because of low body count, because of gear that doesn't do anything in 6th, and because we pay for gimmicks that aren't efficacious, and around and around we go.

Please tell me how to make gimmicks work that don't have any meaningful impact on my ability to survive my opponent's turn. The opposition either has far too many wounds for us to take away, or have neigh invulnerable units.

I think they do. They are a great unit that doesn't have access to everything- which is a good thing. If they had access to all that boosting stuff they'd be overpowered. But they aren't which is evident in the fact we are having a difference of opinion right now.

The unit works the way it is supposed to- I've been able to do it multiple times. So clearly there is some disconnect in players trying to use them in ways they aren't supposed to (I've seen someone footslog them up the middle of the board and complain when they all got killed) or having bad match ups (tau riptide catching them without a chapter master with an invul in the front to take the AP 2 wounds).

All I'm saying is that dismissing them as incapable of being an amazing unit because one of the ways to field them uses a land raider is a little ridiculous.

Most of the time the way I use them is either in a drop pod or in a storm raven. And I'm having good results and having a blast using a unit that looks great, is a good centerpiece unit, and is pretty effective on the table.

Martel732 wrote:

 Paradigm wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

Playing other meqs always spoils me though. If I have models left after turn 3, I view my opponent as a slacker. And marines can't pull that off. Even the mighty grav guns are tickle-cannons to BA compared to ion accelerators.

And there we go. From what you're saying, you've adopted the viewpoint that all marine armies are doomed to fail, rather than looking for ways to make them work. The Marine Codex is perfectly playable, but you do seem resigned to the fact it's not any good.

Well. Marines can't table me in 3 turns by ignoring all my BA defenses. That has a tendency to make me rank them lower than the codices that can. If by doomed to fail, you mean have a sub-50% win rate, then yes I guess that's what I'm saying.

If your rating for a good army is to be able to table an opponent in 3 turns, then I think your parameters are way off, to be honest. Either you play in a ultra-competitive meta where everyone plays super-optimised lists or you play against exceptionally good opponents the whole time, neither of which I imagine most players experience. From what I've seen online and in real life, most communities are far more casual than competitive, and will include a range of skill levels, so I'm really don't see your parameters as that helpful.

If you're that convinced that marines are useless, then why bother answering a thread about marines?

If I could get my opponents to leave all the AP 2 in the model case, I'd agree with you. But they don't. Hell, plasma vets end these guys trivially.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Paradigm wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Paradigm wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

Playing other meqs always spoils me though. If I have models left after turn 3, I view my opponent as a slacker. And marines can't pull that off. Even the mighty grav guns are tickle-cannons to BA compared to ion accelerators.

And there we go. From what you're saying, you've adopted the viewpoint that all marine armies are doomed to fail, rather than looking for ways to make them work. The Marine Codex is perfectly playable, but you do seem resigned to the fact it's not any good.

Well. Marines can't table me in 3 turns by ignoring all my BA defenses. That has a tendency to make me rank them lower than the codices that can. If by doomed to fail, you mean have a sub-50% win rate, then yes I guess that's what I'm saying.

If your rating for a good army is to be able to table an opponent in 3 turns, then I think your parameters are way off, to be honest. Either you play in a ultra-competitive meta where everyone plays super-optimised lists or you play against exceptionally good opponents the whole time, neither of which I imagine most players experience. From what I've seen online and in real life, most communities are far more casual than competitive, and will include a range of skill levels, so I'm really don't see your parameters as that helpful.

If you're that convinced that marines are useless, then why bother answering a thread about marines?

It's the list I have the most experience with and against.

And no, tabling in 3 turns is my parameter for "amazing". This unit was called "amazing". They are not. Riptides backed up by buffmanders are "amazing". 2+ armor footsloggers are just more victims for the AP 2 guns.


I guess an even more pertinent question for those "trying to make it work" is this: what are these guys good against other than other meqs? This has become an asymmetrical game to the extreme: Tau and Eldar basically ignore the assault phase (except jetseers who can't be hurt) and Daemons will eat your honor guard. I can punch Eldar and Tau to death with regular assault marines. I can't GET them there.

Wow, just got out of my class to find a lot more responses than I expected an very mixed opinions. I'm a bit hesitant to grab the Honor Guard since the Champion has that requirement to make challenges, I m not really familiar with the pros and cons aside from a cool narrative.

But if it looks like the general consensus is, if they are available, the Honor Guard destroy a lot in the Assault phase. So how many would you guys recommend be put in a squad? The 10 man unit seems just as pricey and perhaps a bit of overkill. And if a Master is unavailable am I just out of luck for having access to a good assault unit or is there hope? I know assault is out of style right now but I always like to have at least one unit that can mix it up in hand to hand, plus some of the 7th edition rumors are making it sound as though overwatch is getting nerfed hard.

 Verstaka wrote:
Wow, just got out of my class to find a lot more responses than I expected an very mixed opinions. I'm a bit hesitant to grab the Honor Guard since the Champion has that requirement to make challenges, I m not really familiar with the pros and cons aside from a cool narrative.

But if it looks like the general consensus is, if they are available, the Honor Guard destroy a lot in the Assault phase. So how many would you guys recommend be put in a squad? The 10 man unit seems just as pricey and perhaps a bit of overkill. And if a Master is unavailable am I just out of luck for having access to a good assault unit or is there hope? I know assault is out of style right now but I always like to have at least one unit that can mix it up in hand to hand, plus some of the 7th edition rumors are making it sound as though overwatch is getting nerfed hard.

To be honest, the Champ bring forced into challenges is no great loss. He's pretty handy against non-CC characters, so you've actually got a decent chance to win, and at the very least he protects you Chapter Master from being challenged, so he can focus on wrecking face.

I'd go with a unit of between 6-10, points-dependant. Be sure to throw in the chapter Banner and possibly a Chaplain, and mix axes and mauls. At 2000+ points, I'd probably go with the full 10+CM in a LRC as a deathstar, lower than that maybe 6 and the CM.

Other than those, Assault Termies can still do well, and Assault Marines can work so long as you pick the targets.

Again, I'll ask what do you intend to go after with these guys?

Martel732 wrote:
Again, I'll ask what do you intend to go after with these guys?

Pretty much anything short of a MC or Deathstar. I'm pretty sure they can reliably handle most infantry in the game, and no, I'm not talking about screamerstars/jetstars. Fire Warriors, Guardsmen, marines, Necrons. There's a huge array of viable targets.