Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

So after spending several months trying to make Chaos Space Marines work, and several months of having my ass handed to me on a platter, I've decided it's time to trade up. As much as I love the lore behind the CSM, the simple fact is that their codex is poorly written and will never hold a candle to other 6th ed codices.

So, until my main army (Orks) gets their much-needed update, I need something I can play that can stand a chance. I should point out that the people I play most often at my FLGS play Tau, Eldar, Chaos Daemons, Space Wolves, and Grey Knights. As you can see, I'm up against a whole lot of bs.

So what I need is a recommendation on an army that can hold their own against this endless storm of gak. I flat out refuse to play Tau, and I'm not much interested in being the third guy at the shop to play Eldar or Necrons. Currently, I'm leaning towards either Vanilla Marines or Chaos Daemons.

The main thing I want is an army that can hold water in this edition; obviously neither Orks nor CSM can do so. I'm flexible in terms of tactics and flavor. Basically, I just want something that's statistically capable of getting a win.

You win some you lose some, Try harder and keep playing >.>

Maybe it really isnt the army but the players?

I dunno about CSM, but Orks can definitely get wins. If the other guys at the FLGS are playing like triple Riptide and stuff, your going to *have* to play the same garbage to do well against them though.

Daemons are really fun, and given you went for two choppy armies plus you like the chaos lore I'd say that they are the right choice for you. Seriously, I took them up as my second army and wow, the first thing I noticed was "holy gak this army can actually assault things... and win!"

I recommend Vanilla Marines. Drop Pods, no less. It sounds like it might shake things up for you, and be a good change of pace.

The new codex is rumored for next month. Perhaps IG? It's easy to build any kind of list you can think of an IMHO they're 5th ed codex is good without being broken.

 Dakkamite wrote:
I dunno about CSM, but Orks can definitely get wins. If the other guys at the FLGS are playing like triple Riptide and stuff, your going to *have* to play the same garbage to do well against them though.

Daemons are really fun, and given you went for two choppy armies plus you like the chaos lore I'd say that they are the right choice for you. Seriously, I took them up as my second army and wow, the first thing I noticed was "holy gak this army can actually assault things... and win!"

No triple Riptide, but as far as Orks go I can only play what I've got. I know Battlewagons and Bikes can go a long way towards winning matches, but I only have one Battlewagon and three bikes, and buying more models isn't an option right now.

The main reason I'm gravitating towards Vanilla Marines are the fact that they're basically CSM, except better. Daemons, on the other hand, look very fun and flavorful.

What this really comes down to, though, is which can perform reliably. Daemons look fun, but unpredictable, and with someone of my terrible luck, something consistent might serve me better.

Unless you're going to play tau or eldar, you're going to have a difficult time playing against tau and eldar for the forseeable future. Anything else is plenty handleable by the CSM and orks you already have.

It sounds like the biggest problem isn't your army's lack of killing power, but your dwindling lack of patience in the face of repeated losses against powergamers. Perhaps fixing this problem would be better than changing armies without.

You need an army? I know what Army you need. You need some orkz. That's the army you need.

Oh you already have orkz.. Well then you need more orkz then.

 Ailaros wrote:
Unless you're going to play tau or eldar, you're going to have a difficult time playing against tau and eldar for the forseeable future. Anything else is plenty handleable by the CSM and orks you already have.

It sounds like the biggest problem isn't your army's lack of killing power, but your dwindling lack of patience in the face of repeated losses against powergamers. Perhaps fixing this problem would be better than changing armies without.

Sadly, I don't think I can force my friends to play other armies. Part of the problem is my lack of models; most of the lists I've used for my CSM have been 90% proxied, and even then I can only proxy infantry, no vehicles. Even with that taken into account, though, there's only so much I can do with CSM's complete lack of synergy and Ork's inability to run Green Tide in 6th.

Trade all of your CSM for 3 battlewagonz and 30 lootas.

Chaos my be a bit bland and have some internal balance issues, but can win games. There are some VERY successful CSM players in my area.

Just a note ; tau/eldar combos (or even just a good straight eldar list) can give any codex problems.

See if you can find some players you think are really good, and ask them for some honest tactical advice. Play a game or two with them, and ask questions (why did you shoot that one? Why did you move there? etc.).

When I am helping new players it is common to give "feedback" in situations like this.

While I can understand the frustration with playing a codex that is not "top tier" (I was a competitive tau player in 5th....yes, I know that is an oxymoron) to be honest, a codex that is too strong will do more harm than good to a new player.

I have seen it many times before - but net lists and power books will just prolong the learning curve and support sloppy play (I have a friend who is on his fourth army, eldar now, and he keeps hopping books....while still making common mistakes).

Things like good deployment, target priority, distraction units, playing to the objectives etc. are all just good solid skills that come with time, and honest assessment.

Now, having said all of that....yeah, learning with a book a bit under-powered can be rough - but I would only switch armies if you genuinely like another.

If you can't find players who are good people in your area that are willing to help - I am in the DFW area - send me a PM, I will play you and meet you up with good guys who will play at any power level you like.

best of luck sir!

Maphysto wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:
Unless you're going to play tau or eldar, you're going to have a difficult time playing against tau and eldar for the forseeable future. Anything else is plenty handleable by the CSM and orks you already have.

It sounds like the biggest problem isn't your army's lack of killing power, but your dwindling lack of patience in the face of repeated losses against powergamers. Perhaps fixing this problem would be better than changing armies without.

Sadly, I don't think I can force my friends to play other armies. Part of the problem is my lack of models; most of the lists I've used for my CSM have been 90% proxied, and even then I can only proxy infantry, no vehicles. Even with that taken into account, though, there's only so much I can do with CSM's complete lack of synergy and Ork's inability to run Green Tide in 6th.

What i see is that your problem is more about the lack of models to build a list to give you fun games, even if you lose you can have great and fun games with a good list and a army you like and love to build.
The problem isnt coming from the army, i am even thinking to play CSM (i love the thypus zombie list and slanessh build ,i would love to make some daemonettes comvertions) the process to build an army is long and full of love for your models, as real hobby enthusiastic i love my orks and space wolves and have been three years of one terrible job to other (to pay the bills and buy some plastic) but worth it, some times i lose and sometimes i lose again , but i still love them, well i am talking more as a hobby fan than a competitive player, if you are the last, then try the army with more op units per page, if not, just love your models, a good idea is to make of a goal, look for a job or a better job to earn some money and build the models you want, this will serve to make an improvement on both, as a personal level and on the game table


Automatically Appended Next Post:

davethepak wrote:
Chaos my be a bit bland and have some internal balance issues, but can win games. There are some VERY successful CSM players in my area.

Just a note ; tau/eldar combos (or even just a good straight eldar list) can give any codex problems.

See if you can find some players you think are really good, and ask them for some honest tactical advice. Play a game or two with them, and ask questions (why did you shoot that one? Why did you move there? etc.).

When I am helping new players it is common to give "feedback" in situations like this.

While I can understand the frustration with playing a codex that is not "top tier" (I was a competitive tau player in 5th....yes, I know that is an oxymoron) to be honest, a codex that is too strong will do more harm than good to a new player.

I have seen it many times before - but net lists and power books will just prolong the learning curve and support sloppy play (I have a friend who is on his fourth army, eldar now, and he keeps hopping books....while still making common mistakes).

Things like good deployment, target priority, distraction units, playing to the objectives etc. are all just good solid skills that come with time, and honest assessment.

Now, having said all of that....yeah, learning with a book a bit under-powered can be rough - but I would only switch armies if you genuinely like another.

If you can't find players who are good people in your area that are willing to help - I am in the DFW area - send me a PM, I will play you and meet you up with good guys who will play at any power level you like.

best of luck sir!

I totally agree with you, try to find some nice guy that could teach you and give some tactical advice, i am more than happy to teach how to play to new players, i give them advice about where to shoot first and how to manouvre their models to gain advantage of the terrain, even if that mean i lose, the important thing is to have fun

Well, the CSM codex is not that bad. What army lists did you play?

 Rismonite wrote:
You need an army? I know what Army you need. You need some orkz. That's the army you need.
Oh you already have orkz.. Well then you need more orkz then.

There is no problem that can't be solved by throwing screaming Ork bodies at it.

HQ Grand Master AWESOME (Mastery Level 2, Master-Crafted Psycannon, Master-Crafted Nemesis Warding Stave, Blind Grenades, Melta Bombs, Digital Weapons, Psybolt Ammunition, Empyrean Brain Mines, Psychotroke Grenades, Rad Grenades, Orbital Strike Relay) 410 Draigo 275 TROOPS 1 Paladin (Apothecary, Master-Crafted Nemesis Warding Stave) 155 1 Paladin (Apothecary, Master-Crafted Nemesis Warding Stave) 155 HEAVY Nemesis Dreadknight (2x Heavy Psycannons, Personal Teleporter, 2x Nemesis Greatswords) 335 Nemesis Dreadknight (2x Heavy Psycannons, Personal Teleporter, 2x Nemesis Greatswords) 335 Nemesis Dreadknight (2x Heavy Psycannons, Personal Teleporter, 2x Nemesis Greatswords) 335 *Note that models had to be TRIMMED DOWN IN POINTS to fit into this 2k list, and that with TWO Grand Masters, you DO get to have BOTH Grand Masters make D3 of those Dreadknights scoring! 2,000 points, 7 models


Automatically Appended Next Post:
cheapest army i came up with was a mono-tzeetch daemons army. fateweaver, 6 flamer boxes, 3 horror boxes, and some greenstuff to turn 2 horrors into disc heralds. roughly $150 on a discount site.

Did I miss something? You want to start a new army but don't have the money to add more competitive stuff to your current ork army? If i missed the reason somewhere in the thread I apologize.

If you can afford another army, I wouldn't waste the money or effort on starting an entirely new army. Unless like posted above, one of the other armies really catches your eye and you really want to play them. If not...stick with orks! The ork player in our group has been unbeaten except for the one loss I handed him with a 500 point nid army. I had to play his game of running a blob of hand to hand stuff with swarmy at the helm. He's tabled my vanilla marines too many times to count. Save up and get some bikes. Nob bikers are slowed strong with a couple of pk's and a painboy. If I wouldn't have built up a hatred for orks because of that player, I'd run a secondary ork army. I've read the codex and they seem like they'd be a blast to play. Don't give up on orks!

Also, if you played an army for several months and lost a bunch...don't get discouraged. That's the point of learning a new army the correct way and disregarding what the internet has to say. It was over a year before I started to get some consistant wins with my vanilla marines. I bet I used every unit in the codex trying to win. I learned thru tons of trial and error what units work and what units really don't. For nearly a year I never fielded the same army twice. I would field groups of units that fit the same roles but never an entire build as different units have different roles. That's another good thing to have against your enemy as they can't say "well I bet he's bringing this unit or that unit so I'll run this or that to counter it." But that was my experience in my group. Keep up with the chaos as well if you like the fluff. Keep pressing on trying out units and you'll find what works for you and you alone...not what works for other chaos players out there.

My vote would be Eldar, strong in multiple departments, can ally with other strong codex's.
If you are going to jump ship Eldar would probably be the best option.

 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, the CSM codex is not that bad. What army lists did you play?

I've mostly experimented with core squads of Plague Marines or Noise Marines, supported by Heldrakes and either Havocs or Obliterators. I've also played around with Daemon Princes, a Forgefiend, Termies and Thousand Sons. The problem I'm having is that, no matter what army I'm playing against, everything just gets shot all to hell before it can accomplish anything. Using terrain to my advantage hasn't helped, as usually my opponent is deployed in such a way that there are no real blind spots.

 RavenGuard55 wrote:
Did I miss something? You want to start a new army but don't have the money to add more competitive stuff to your current ork army? If i missed the reason somewhere in the thread I apologize.

If you can afford another army, I wouldn't waste the money or effort on starting an entirely new army. Unless like posted above, one of the other armies really catches your eye and you really want to play them. If not...stick with orks! The ork player in our group has been unbeaten except for the one loss I handed him with a 500 point nid army. I had to play his game of running a blob of hand to hand stuff with swarmy at the helm. He's tabled my vanilla marines too many times to count. Save up and get some bikes. Nob bikers are slowed strong with a couple of pk's and a painboy. If I wouldn't have built up a hatred for orks because of that player, I'd run a secondary ork army. I've read the codex and they seem like they'd be a blast to play. Don't give up on orks!

Also, if you played an army for several months and lost a bunch...don't get discouraged. That's the point of learning a new army the correct way and disregarding what the internet has to say. It was over a year before I started to get some consistant wins with my vanilla marines. I bet I used every unit in the codex trying to win. I learned thru tons of trial and error what units work and what units really don't. For nearly a year I never fielded the same army twice. I would field groups of units that fit the same roles but never an entire build as different units have different roles. That's another good thing to have against your enemy as they can't say "well I bet he's bringing this unit or that unit so I'll run this or that to counter it." But that was my experience in my group. Keep up with the chaos as well if you like the fluff. Keep pressing on trying out units and you'll find what works for you and you alone...not what works for other chaos players out there.

I was referring to trading in my CSM models for something else.

And really, it's never so much that I lose so much as it is that I lose so BADLY. It feels like no matter what I bring, my opponent has a hard counter for it, while all my units feel mediocre. Half the time I end up calling matches by turn 3 or 4, simply because my units couldn't do what they were supposed to. It feels like I'm beating my head against a brick wall; everyone I play against has units that can fill their roles perfectly, but my equivalent units that are supposed to fill the same roles underperform every time.

Just a side note - sounds like you also may not be playing with enough terrain on the board. Regardless if you have given up on CSM because you lose too often with them. I would highly recommend Tau or Eldar at this point. More to the fact Eldar.

The Wave Serpent easy button may be for you!

Do you have a friend that plays 40k? If so ask them to do a slow walk thru game and talk over what's going on in the game. I've done this quite a bit with a friend I got to play. He took up crons and understood them better and faster because of our walk thrus. In my severely limited experience, chaos shouldn't get destroyed that badly. If you have no true friends at the local store, then ask a few of the players if they would play a very casual game where things are talked thru. The one chaos player in our group only does as well as he does because of the units themselves as he has zero tactical know-how. Not really sure what else to suggest as you've already ruled out the current most powerful armies. Really sounds like your group is either sink or swim which is terrible for a new player. If they're dominating a new player every single game then I would completely understand your frustration. Is your group very competitive?

Hah, Christ dude, I'M the guy who got most of the people at my FLGS playing. I'm not exactly an experienced player, I only recently started getting matches regularly, but there's only two guys there who have played longer than I have, and one of them was out of the game since 4th ed.

And really, we're not that competitive. The Tau player picked his army purely for their aesthetic, he had no idea how strong the are. There are a couple of people who powergame a bit, but most of the matches are friendly.

What this really comes down to is that they're bringing things I have no counters for, and nothing I bring is ever as effective.

Well I think you can win with either of your current armys. But you might need to add some more figures, so swapping one out for more of the other sounds like a good plan. I've heard good things about Nurgle/Zombies for CSM. And Orks? Orks always win, 'cause if they get stomped dey can just come by later for another go!

A few options;
*Stick it out with Chaos
If you aren't totally sick of them, I'd recommend digging deeper into CSM. Sounds like your focusing on shooting and getting outgunned. You need a little one-two punch balance. I'd recommend some fast greasy speed like spawn or bikers to tie-up shooty units. Then you can bring up your Noise Marines ect into position to mop up. Don't buy into "Take drakes and Nurgle and quit if that doesn't work"; it's the anthem of losers. Try different combos. Now that FW is indisputably legal, take a look at some of the units you can add/proxy from IA. (Some choppy units in Dreadclaws might ruin a gunline's day.)

*Demons
You can use units from Daemons to plug deficiencies in your CSM army. Proxy what you want to play, then trade off CSM units you don't like for the Daemons you do. Thematic!

*Dirty Smelly Loyalists
Just proxy your chaos with the loyalist codex. Maybe paint them with a standard theme parodying a loyalist chapter.

*Guard
If you like the Chaos vibe ally or replace your Marines with traitor guardsmen. (Either standard codex or IA lists.) You sukkas like gunlines? Let's play gunlines!

Expanding on your Orks for the future is a no-brainer. If you can proxy at your venue, why not scratch build your battlewagons out of toy trucks and old model tanks? Get cheap boys on ebay and start building a mob for this summer. In the mean time you can ally with Chaos and distract the gunline with multiple small units running at them.

I would definitely NOT recommend Grey Knights. If you have a problem with plague marines getting shot up, don't try an entire army of pricey slow-moving models clumped together in small units.

Yeah, I'm gonna give CSM at least a few more go's before I write them off completely, because I do really like their lore, and they have some drop-dead gorgeous models. I feel like a lot of my problems could be fixed if I just had some vehicles; I know better than to even try running a Zerker list without Rhinos, for instance, and having a Land Raider can never really be a bad thing.

If I do decide to get rid of them, though, I'll prolly either trade them in for more Orks (I'm in desperate need of more bikes) or Chaos Daemons, since some of the players at my FLGS are expressing interest in WH Fantasy, and having an army that could do double-duty would be a great moneysaver.

 Boggy Man wrote:
A few options;
*Stick it out with Chaos
If you aren't totally sick of them, I'd recommend digging deeper into CSM. Sounds like your focusing on shooting and getting outgunned. You need a little one-two punch balance. I'd recommend some fast greasy speed like spawn or bikers to tie-up shooty units. Then you can bring up your Noise Marines ect into position to mop up. Don't buy into "Take drakes and Nurgle and quit if that doesn't work"; it's the anthem of losers. Try different combos. Now that FW is indisputably legal, take a look at some of the units you can add/proxy from IA. (Some choppy units in Dreadclaws might ruin a gunline's day.

How many units of Spawn would you recommend? I've heard a lot about how great they are at tarpitting, and have a list that uses them, but haven't had a chance to playtest it yet.

Maphysto wrote:

 Dakkamite wrote:
I dunno about CSM, but Orks can definitely get wins. If the other guys at the FLGS are playing like triple Riptide and stuff, your going to *have* to play the same garbage to do well against them though.

Daemons are really fun, and given you went for two choppy armies plus you like the chaos lore I'd say that they are the right choice for you. Seriously, I took them up as my second army and wow, the first thing I noticed was "holy gak this army can actually assault things... and win!"

No triple Riptide, but as far as Orks go I can only play what I've got. I know Battlewagons and Bikes can go a long way towards winning matches, but I only have one Battlewagon and three bikes, and buying more models isn't an option right now.

The main reason I'm gravitating towards Vanilla Marines are the fact that they're basically CSM, except better. Daemons, on the other hand, look very fun and flavorful.

What this really comes down to, though, is which can perform reliably. Daemons look fun, but unpredictable, and with someone of my terrible luck, something consistent might serve me better.

, trade or sell your chaos Space marines. I'll tell you what, you should not be having big issues against space marines.

I hate Veterans of the long war. Bring a couple of drakes, deep strike some terminators or obliterators or both. Chaos SM have a lot of stuff, I don't think they have a broken codex. You're just not playing them right.

I'm not saying you're one of them but a lot of the people I see play chaos get too into the lore. I'm gonna play this chaos army because they have this lore..when given advice or suggestions, they come back with" that doesn't play to my army though." Who cares if you have iron warriors, bring plague marines man, have a demon prince HQ.

You're codex is not broken.

Johnnytorrance wrote:
, trade or sell your chaos Space marines. I'll tell you what, you should not be having big issues against space marines.

I hate Veterans of the long war. Bring a couple of drakes, deep strike some terminators or obliterators or both. Chaos SM have a lot of stuff, I don't think they have a broken codex. You're just not playing them right.

I'm not saying you're one of them but a lot of the people I see play chaos get too into the lore. I'm gonna play this chaos army because they have this lore..when given advice or suggestions, they come back with" that doesn't play to my army though." Who cares if you have iron warriors, bring plague marines man, have a demon prince HQ.

You're codex is not broken.

- I've fielded Daemon Princes multiple times in various configurations. They just die before accomplishing anything, and that's 250-350 points down the drain.

- Vets of the Long War is a big point sink for something that's only going to give me a benefit against one of the guys I play, and a questionable benefit at that. Besides, I don't like list tailoring.

- Plague Marines have been helpful, but they still melt under sustained fire, especially when I'm outranged (which I usually am). I need Rhinos for mobility and cover to really make them work, and I have none.

- I bring 2 Heldrakes in every list, standard. They're great at burning 3+ infantry, but if my opponent brings tanks or anything with a 2+, they're pretty much useless. And if he has something with Skyfire (Which he will because everyone I play knows Drakes are the only truly threatening thing I have), they'll be dead by turn 4.

- Obliterators are great, but they're a huge point sink for only 6 wounds. That's less points for me to spend on anything else, and when I Deep Strike, if they scatter in a bad position or Mishap, then that's another 200 points wasted.

- Termies can only do so much when your opponent has more dakka and more AP2 than you. At best I could suicide them with combi-meltas and pop a tank or two, but that's a really expensive unit to be sending out to die. See also: Scatter and Mishap.

Lastly, there's no call for you to take such an insulting tone. "Get good or stop trying" is not a valid piece of advice. Everyone else here has been friendly and understanding, so maybe you should learn from them.

 cvtuttle wrote:
Just a side note - sounds like you also may not be playing with enough terrain on the board. Regardless if you have given up on CSM because you lose too often with them. I would highly recommend Tau or Eldar at this point. More to the fact Eldar.

The Wave Serpent easy button may be for you!

Agreed; go Tau or Eldar if you want to dominate the board.

That, or find a way to afford the other options in your codex. I would stick with Kill Team or Combat Patrol until you can get more heavy support and fast attack.

Guardsman Belisarius wrote:

 cvtuttle wrote:
Just a side note - sounds like you also may not be playing with enough terrain on the board. Regardless if you have given up on CSM because you lose too often with them. I would highly recommend Tau or Eldar at this point. More to the fact Eldar.

The Wave Serpent easy button may be for you!

Agreed; go Tau or Eldar if you want to dominate the board.

That, or find a way to afford the other options in your codex. I would stick with Kill Team or Combat Patrol until you can get more heavy support and fast attack.

I should probably point out that I have no interest in dominating the board. That's why I refuse to play Tau; I know firsthand how stupid easy they are, and I don't feel like selling myself out. I just want an army that can get some wins, and at least keep losses close. I don't want easy wins; I want a challenging and fulfilling game. But every match I've played has been a curb-stomp, with my opponent bringing things that I literally have no way to counter.

Maphysto wrote:

Guardsman Belisarius wrote:

 cvtuttle wrote:
Just a side note - sounds like you also may not be playing with enough terrain on the board. Regardless if you have given up on CSM because you lose too often with them. I would highly recommend Tau or Eldar at this point. More to the fact Eldar.

The Wave Serpent easy button may be for you!

Agreed; go Tau or Eldar if you want to dominate the board.

That, or find a way to afford the other options in your codex. I would stick with Kill Team or Combat Patrol until you can get more heavy support and fast attack.

I should probably point out that I have no interest in dominating the board. That's why I refuse to play Tau; I know firsthand how stupid easy they are, and I don't feel like selling myself out. I just want an army that can get some wins, and at least keep losses close. I don't want easy wins; I want a challenging and fulfilling game. But every match I've played has been a curb-stomp, with my opponent bringing things that I literally have no way to counter.

Then either go Vanilla Marines or Imperial Guard if you want to feel like you've earned a victory.

CSM have it hard? Try running Nids for a while. Then come back and see how hard CSM really have it in this edition.