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Hello, i'm new to the Dakka Dakka forums, but thought i need somewhere to discuss tactics, and lists without giving away all my secrets to the guys i play with regularly !
I know this might be a little close to Brother Claudio's thread, but its a little less points, and a friendly as opposed to a tournament. Not that it makes much difference, i still want to CRUSH HIM UNDER MY MIGHTY RED BOOTIES !!

I've got a 1500Pt game coming up this saturday with a friend, all i know for certain is that he will be fielding Chaos Space Marines, and that will include a Helldrake, at least one possibly more Hellbrutes, and at least 1 Squad of 5 strong Warp Talons. Exactly what else he will field i don't know.

I was thinking for my list so far that i would put down :

Dante & 5x Sanguinary Guard (with death Masks), all starting in a Stormraven (thinking melta's and assault cannons).
Starting on the board 5 man tactical squad with a Sanguinary Priest in a Razorback, with a TL assault cannon, plus a dreadnough, with an assault cannon.
Also i was going to take 10 man assault squad with a power fist and plasma gun (might deep strike these guys). Plus 10x Death Co, probably with bolters, and in a drop pod.

The above leaves me a mere 30 points leftover, that i don't know what to do with. I'm also a little concerned that the list might be too assault focussed and get me my arse kicked. Any thoughts or suggestions ?

Try that and see how it works. Then come back.

Obviously i can take that endorsement as your list is 'ing awesome and therefore i am clearly going to win without question. Or possibly not.

No, the model count is way too low, but sometimes experience is the best teacher of that particular lesson.

It doesn't help that practically nothing in the codex is worth what it costs.

Hmmm. I was obviously not sarcastic enough. I had thought that but as you say, everything is expensive, and i know i will need the Stormraven which is the most expensive vehicle option. I was hoping lots of Autocanons might make up for it.

Well all I have to say is keep Dante and sanguinary guard out of stormraven. Once you have to hover you a sitting dock with the SR. Give the DC a power sword and/or axe. And good luck.

That might well be true, but the only reason to drop the SR into hover would be to disembark, which isn't required. Personally i would be more worried about them getting killed in a wreck whilst zooming, though it didn't happen last time i put them in it, they spent a whole turn in there without incident !

Hey,

I'm not an expert like many on here but I will try and offer you what little advice I can.

Firstly, keep Dante and co out of the stormraven if possible, as mentioned before you don't want the stormraven to become a sitting duck as it is your only reliable unit for taking down the heldrake. You might also want to start Dante and co in reserve so that they can accurately deep strike where they are needed in battle, maybe add some infernus pistols for popping tanks.

Dante and the sanguinary guard make up about a third of your points total which is an awful lot. Depending on what you want to use them for you may be better served just taking a bog standard librarian, Corbulo and an assault squad in some form of razorback.

BA are incredibly over priced so you are starting at a disadvantage and have to use every dirty little trick you can find.

1. Let Corbulo tank all the wounds and Look out Sir anything his 2+ fails (this is still viable I think)

2. Use your transport to hide your troops from over watch (wounds can only be allocated by your opponent to the models they can see) you can also use terrain for this.

Death company look great on paper but for 200 points in a very troop light army I'm not sure it is the best investment for your points. They can't claim objectives and that is what you need to play for. Try another tactical squad instead (if you have the points get 10 and combat squad them) plus a scout squad with snipers to grab a backfield objective towards the end (start in reserve or go to ground with them)

I'm not a huge fan of dreadnoughts ATM, maybe get a predator with a twin linked las cannon instead? It will give you an AT option for the same price as the assault cannon dread.

Slowly through my uses of Dante, I've evolved him from an honour guard deepstrike bomb, to a Sanguinary guard deepstrike bomb, and now to a normal assault squad deepstrike bomb with 2 meltas and a jump pack priest.

He's fun to play with, and can be very good if the opponent has something that needs to be melted in his back line. The 10 man assault squad and the guard cost almost the same, depending on options, and the assault has double the wounds, (although they don't come with the master-crafter power weapons or dat snazzy armor,) so by the numbers I'd call the assault squad the best choice for Dante's no scatter leap right now.

tactical squads are for the other marines. Any time you want scoring troops, you should either be taking assault marines or scouts. Assault marines can drop their jump packs to get a discount on vehicles, making dedicated razorbacks very very cheap.

I do enjoy DC in a pod, just make sure you're not lacking on scoring guys. I like to have at least 2 full units that can combat squad to 4, (or just 4 units) before I put DC in a list.

The metagame issue here is mainly the helldrake. Any unit not in combat or a vehicle when it comes in should be very nervous, and more than likely is one phase away from dying. I usually just put together TAC lists, thus the advice on the "general" effectiveness of the assault squad over sanguinary guard above, but in this situation, it might actually benefit you to have guard to defy the bale flamer's ap3. Definitely don't put them in the raven though. Have Dante surgical strike them in, or whatever he calls it. With the re-roll for descent of angels, they'll come in turn 2 90% of the time. Also Dante has a death mask already, you don't need to buy more for his guards.

In the entire BA codex, I wouldn't put anything in the raven other than hammerbro terminators and Mephiston, since anything else would probably just die if it gets shot down. Maybe the Sanguinor, if I ever got drunk enough to put him in a list. (glares over at the Sanguinor model on the cabinet.)

As jdredsox said, I'd rather do a predator than a dreadnought for long-range direct fire.

With the list how you have it, you have a razorback and a dreadnought (probably predator instead) on the table at the start...That razorback does NOT want to get close enough to use that 24" assault cannon before other guys start coming on the board. I'd switch it to the ever-popular las/plas or leave it cheap as the heavy bolter.

There is nothing worth melting that justifies Dante's pricetag, though. A tooled up chapter master from C:SM is only a bit pricier and has EW and perhaps IWND.

That is pretty true, and I've mentioned it to others. Dante star implies that not only does Dante's squad successfully melt a decent target, but that they stay alive through the opponent's turn to cause even more havoc to make up for their cost.

Generally you have to settle for nuking something secondary off at a flank near some ruins or something, and then jump pack out into assaults on the next turn.

I HAVE personally had the unit tear through about 1200 points of orks before. It was a heavy city terrain map with only 3 clear alleys through the center, so we were stalemated waiting for each other to advance into the killing alleys....and then Dante's unit showed up, shot some lootas, got assaulted by boyz and whittled them down, hit and ran, and proceeded to start tearing through things. The rest of my army saw its chance to barrel through while they were distracted, but Dante was working overtime. They slaughtered most of the army, and the game ended when some of my other troops had just gotten to his last boys mob and contested his rear objective.

Also the debuff can be pretty cool. It's never all THAT important, but I have gotten first blood from a space wolf rune priest due to it + perils on his first turn. Hilarious.

Going over what you have said about your friends list you definitely want to have some long range weaponry and just blast away before he can get close. Las cannons can certainly give you that.

Hell brutes only have a 24" range and can only walk across the map from what I remember. Sit back and blast them as they approach, remember your vehicles are fast so you can always stay out of range. Warp Talons can only fight in close combat so whittle them down as they approach. If they deep strike they can't assault on the turn they arrive so they will just sit there and absorb fire, 5 won't last long. Chip away at his army for the first couple of turns and then unleash the assault troops once his numbers are down.

The only concern is the heldrake. If he gets the best of your stormraven then BA in general don't really have much in the AA department.

Martel732 wrote:
There is nothing worth melting that justifies Dante's pricetag, though. A tooled up chapter master from C:SM is only a bit pricier and has EW and perhaps IWND.

IWND ? Not sure what that is ?

Jdredsox wrote:
Hey,
Dante and the sanguinary guard make up about a third of your points total which is an awful lot. Depending on what you want to use them for you may be better served just taking a bog standard librarian, Corbulo and an assault squad in some form of razorback.

That's actually fairly sobering, so I've been trying to rework this list, and have been looking at replacing Dante and The Sanguinary Guard to try and get a bit more fire/man power, that and removing some jump packs from the assault troops to free up some points. It would be nice to play them still though as they are virtually finished being painted now, and need to test their wings ! and i don't think he's fielding anything with Hit and Run. Plus as they have swanky artificer armour, aren't they just as likely to survive a SR crash than terminators ?

One question in regards to removing jump packs, if i get a 5 man squad for 100 points, and 35 points off the dedicated transport, are additional assault marines added to the squad 11 points, instead of the normal 18 points per additional man ?

IWND - it will not die (special rule but I can't remember the details off the top of my head)

With regards to the assault marine/jump pack question I believe they are still 18pts per marine.

I know what you mean about having some nicely painted sanguinary guard. Dante is the one model I think I have done the best paint job on and I never bring him out for battles any more. Fingers crossed for a new codex later this year that returns BA back to their former glory.

Spin Dr Wolf wrote:
Plus as they have swanky artificer armour, aren't they just as likely to survive a SR crash than terminators ?

One question in regards to removing jump packs, if i get a 5 man squad for 100 points, and 35 points off the dedicated transport, are additional assault marines added to the squad 11 points, instead of the normal 18 points per additional man ?

Sanguinary guard have no invuln save. The hit you take from the ground is s9 ap2. The reason hammerbros can take it is a 3++ invuln from their storm shield (Insert air surfing terminator image here,) although you're still likely to lose 1 in the crash. For the guard, you're likely to lose all 5.

The marines still cost the full amount even after removing the packs. This does mean you're getting the biggest bang for your buck on that deal with 5 man razorback teams.

Ah, i hadn't realised the Terminators also had an invulnerable save. Not having a standard Space Marines codex is increasingly seeming like it's a problem, and that it would be of great benefit to have one, until at least they update the Blood Angels codex, and hopefully make stuff cheaper. Also something to counter overwatch would be nice, i want to go back to ground and pound and barely firing any shots. That seems way more in line with the BA backstory/fluff.

Overwatch can hurt but it isn't the be all and end all, especially as you aren't up against tau.

1. A defending unit can only overwatch once per turn, if you want to protect a specific assault unit try "feeding" a less important unit to your target first. Then pile in your other unit.

2. A unit already in CC can't overwatch.

3. Use terrain or vehicles to hide most of your assaulting unit, wounds can only be allocated to what your opponent can see. (FYI, make sure all of your unit is within charge range though, you hate to survive overwatch and then find you can't make the charge distance)

4. Use a character (like Corbulo) with a great save (2+) to tank the wounds from overwatch. It can't hurt you if it can't dent the save.

If I'm wrong on any of this hopefully someone will say.

Lastly, overwatch only hits on a 6 so your opponent will need to be seriously lucky or have a seriously large unit to put out enough hits to even cause you to save a sizeable number of wounds. Just don't rely on a bog standard marine save, as it is only 50/50, if you're using MSU in full view of the defending unit.

Corbulo sounds pretty sweet, i've not tabled him before so perhaps now is a good time to try him out. I bet he'll end up felled by the first wounds i try and soak up with him. After a bit more reading of the other threads and peoples advice above i'm now thinking:

Librarian (Epistolary, with Prescience and Fireshield), and Corbulo, both with 5 man assualt squads, in Razorbacks with las/plas.
2x Assualt squads with jump packs, a power axe, and a plasmagun (one in reserve).
5 Scouts with camo cloaks.
Stormraven, obviously in reserve.

That leaves me 155 points, which i'm not sure what to do with. I was thinking that i'm covered well enough with firepower especially for vehicles, Stormraven should kill his Helldrake, so more troops, and either :
7 Man Assualt Squad, with another plasmagun
6 Death Company in a drop pod, with bolters controversially, since they are relentless. (Not technically troops i know).

Any thoughts on the last few points ?

Don't put plasma on assault troops. It's a rapid fire weapon.

Oh yeah. Good point, back to Melta's it is.

W/ Dante it's fun to give the squad infernus pistols and deep strike.

Spin Dr Wolf wrote:
Corbulo sounds pretty sweet, i've not tabled him before so perhaps now is a good time to try him out. I bet he'll end up felled by the first wounds i try and soak up with him. After a bit more reading of the other threads and peoples advice above i'm now thinking:

Librarian (Epistolary, with Prescience and Fireshield), and Corbulo, both with 5 man assualt squads, in Razorbacks with las/plas.
2x Assualt squads with jump packs, a power axe, and a plasmagun (one in reserve).
5 Scouts with camo cloaks.
Stormraven, obviously in reserve.

That leaves me 155 points, which i'm not sure what to do with. I was thinking that i'm covered well enough with firepower especially for vehicles, Stormraven should kill his Helldrake, so more troops, and either :
7 Man Assualt Squad, with another plasmagun
6 Death Company in a drop pod, with bolters controversially, since they are relentless. (Not technically troops i know).

Any thoughts on the last few points ?

Looking great, atm.
Epistolary uprgade is way too expensive! 50 points for extra psychic power per turn?
If you take codex powers, you can take Shield of Sanguinius and keep both RB's in cover AND since it's casted on opponent's turn, you get to cast another power in your own turn.

And as said, go with Flamers or meltaguns for ASM.

With remaining points a Sanguinary Priest might be useful.

Yeah 50Pts is expensive to cast another power per turn, though i wanted to use Prescience to try and make the assault squads hit a little harder, and i though the Fireshield would compliment that nicely providing some hits in lieu of Hammer of Wrath as the two five man squads don't have jump packs. I presume that you have to use psyker powers from either the codex of the main rulebook and can't mix and match ? Perhaps i should use some of the remaining 165Pts to have a second librarian instead, then i could do both...