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 tomjoad wrote:
I'm glad to see that this Blood Angels thread is about how good Tau/Eldar/Taudar are...again.

Bloody boring, guys.

I keep trying to keep it on track, but I keep getting sucked into it.

You can't wishlist without setting some kind of bar.

Based off what C:SM and DA got, I think this is a bit of a moot issue. Yes, I know it's what we WANT, not GOING TO GET, but I can't even wishlist without feeling dirty because of Tau/Eldar.

Martel732 wrote:
You can't wishlist without setting some kind of bar.

Based off what C:SM and DA got, I think this is a bit of a moot issue. Yes, I know it's what we WANT, not GOING TO GET, but I can't even wishlist without feeling dirty because of Tau/Eldar.

How about starting you own "My Army Suckes becouse the Eldar/Tau are so Over Powered" Thread.
There are a bunch of who do not want to talk about how "My Army Suckes becouse the Eldar/Tau are so Over Powered".
We want to talk about all of special shiny's we want.

 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
You can't wishlist without setting some kind of bar.

Based off what C:SM and DA got, I think this is a bit of a moot issue. Yes, I know it's what we WANT, not GOING TO GET, but I can't even wishlist without feeling dirty because of Tau/Eldar.

How about starting you own "My Army Suckes becouse the Eldar/Tau are so Over Powered" Thread.
There are a bunch of who do not want to talk about how "My Army Suckes becouse the Eldar/Tau are so Over Powered".
We want to talk about all of special shiny's we want.

How are you gauging which shineys are fair and which are not?

Martel732 wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
You can't wishlist without setting some kind of bar.

Based off what C:SM and DA got, I think this is a bit of a moot issue. Yes, I know it's what we WANT, not GOING TO GET, but I can't even wishlist without feeling dirty because of Tau/Eldar.

How about starting you own "My Army Suckes becouse the Eldar/Tau are so Over Powered" Thread.
There are a bunch of who do not want to talk about how "My Army Suckes becouse the Eldar/Tau are so Over Powered".
We want to talk about all of special shiny's we want.

How are you gauging which shineys are fair and which are not?

For an MEQ Army, all of the other MEQ Armies mostly.
This is how GW measures the average army. I am not saying they are good at it, but this is something that can be compaired to.

Martel is evidently the resident Tau/eldar lobbyist.

Hardly. I'd gut those codices if I could, but GW opened that Pandora's Box, and they're not shutting it.

Martel732 wrote:
Hardly. I'd gut those codices if I could, but GW opened that Pandora's Box, and they're not shutting it.

So you want Space Woves, Grey Knights and Blood Angels to be brought up to Eldar/Tau Levels so we can be called TFG before our armies even come out of the case by everyone else.
OR
Do you want Space Woves, Grey Knights and Blood Angels to be ballanced with the other 14 Codexs?

Make sergeants into sanguinary priests (this used to be a combat doctrine, long ago for space marines).

Make said sanguinary priests give furious charge by default

Allow them to purchase the chalice that makes their squad have feel no pain.

Have these sergeants be WS5 like current priests.


Make death masks disallow overwatch when charging. Allow them to be purchased by sergeants or by chaplain characters. Come standard on Sanguinary guard

Give them a rule like Deathwing Assault, where some jump troops can arrive on turn 1.

Cheaper bikes and honor guard/honor guard options

Make chaplains a 1-3 Elite choice, that can be attached to squads but are not independent characters, like Wolf Guard. Maybe do the same with Priests if they don't implement the veteran sergeant priest idea.

Give a psychic power that allows charging after running for one unit, or maybe the caster's unit.

On topic because Tau drivel drives me crazy...
what about the ability to give all BA with jump packs hit and run?

 Spellbound wrote:
Make sergeants into sanguinary priests (this used to be a combat doctrine, long ago for space marines).

Make said sanguinary priests give furious charge by default

Allow them to purchase the chalice that makes their squad have feel no pain.

Have these sergeants be WS5 like current priests.


Make death masks disallow overwatch when charging. Allow them to be purchased by sergeants or by chaplain characters. Come standard on Sanguinary guard

Give them a rule like Deathwing Assault, where some jump troops can arrive on turn 1.

Cheaper bikes and honor guard/honor guard options

Make chaplains a 1-3 Elite choice, that can be attached to squads but are not independent characters, like Wolf Guard. Maybe do the same with Priests if they don't implement the veteran sergeant priest idea.

Give a psychic power that allows charging after running for one unit, or maybe the caster's unit.

Let me count the things I don't like....
None, I like all of those options with 1 Mod:
Give them a rule like Deathwing Assault, where some jump troops can arrive on turn 1 or 2.

 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Hardly. I'd gut those codices if I could, but GW opened that Pandora's Box, and they're not shutting it.

So you want Space Woves, Grey Knights and Blood Angels to be brought up to Eldar/Tau Levels so we can be called TFG before our armies even come out of the case by everyone else.
OR
Do you want Space Woves, Grey Knights and Blood Angels to be ballanced with the other 14 Codexs?

If every list was Eldar, then no one would be Eldar.

But since you brought it up, there's a big difference between being able to handle the DA (which BA kinda can even right now) and being able to handle SW (fat chance for the boys in Red). So do BA get to be SW good or kinda lame like DA?

Well how about something like this using some other ideas:
We Start with the Assault Squad.
>Standard USR: ATSKNF, Counter-Attack, Rampage
>Veteran Sergeant gains WS5
>The Sergeant or Veteran Sergeant can be upgraded a Priest with the Blood Chalice giving the Squad FNP [5+]
>The Assault Squad can be made Death Company [at +X per Model] changing the USR to Fearless, Furious Charge, Rage, Relentless WS5, BS3. If the Sergeant takes the Blood Chalice FNP becomes [4+].

Something the same could be done with Scouts, Tactical or Deviator Squads.

 Anpu42 wrote:
Well how about something like this using some other ideas:
We Start with the Assault Squad.
>Standard USR: ATSKNF, Counter-Attack, Rampage
>Veteran Sergeant gains WS5
>The Sergeant or Veteran Sergeant can be upgraded a Priest with the Blood Chalice giving the Squad FNP [5+]
>The Assault Squad can be made Death Company [at +X per Model] changing the USR to Fearless, Furious Charge, Rage, Relentless WS5, BS3. If the Sergeant takes the Blood Chalice FNP becomes [4+].

Something the same could be done with Scouts, Tactical or Deviator Squads.

I agree with you about Death Company being BS3, it would make a lot of sense that guys that have gone out of their minds with rage and who desire to rip you limb from limb and well enjoy bathing in your blood basically are not going to be good shots or for that matter even care to aim.

Martel732 wrote:
You can't wishlist without setting some kind of bar.

Based off what C:SM and DA got, I think this is a bit of a moot issue. Yes, I know it's what we WANT, not GOING TO GET, but I can't even wishlist without feeling dirty because of Tau/Eldar.

I think you're looking at the past here, Taudar aren't the high bar. GW has jumped the Apoc shark and any new codex should be designed to take this into account.

Taudar S6/7 and ignores cover doesn't cut it against AV13/6HP/4++ super heavy and you can bet the Knight will be the first of many.

I'd want a BA codex that dealt with Super Heavies rather than Tau and Eldar.

Bartali wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
You can't wishlist without setting some kind of bar.

Based off what C:SM and DA got, I think this is a bit of a moot issue. Yes, I know it's what we WANT, not GOING TO GET, but I can't even wishlist without feeling dirty because of Tau/Eldar.

I think you're looking at the past here, Taudar aren't the high bar. GW has jumped the Apoc shark and any new codex should be designed to take this into account.

Taudar S6/7 and ignores cover doesn't cut it against AV13/6HP/4++ super heavy and you can bet the Knight will be the first of many.

I'd want a BA codex that dealt with Super Heavies rather than Tau and Eldar.

I see alot of Infunus Pistols showing up.

Bartali wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
You can't wishlist without setting some kind of bar.

Based off what C:SM and DA got, I think this is a bit of a moot issue. Yes, I know it's what we WANT, not GOING TO GET, but I can't even wishlist without feeling dirty because of Tau/Eldar.

I think you're looking at the past here, Taudar aren't the high bar. GW has jumped the Apoc shark and any new codex should be designed to take this into account.

Taudar S6/7 and ignores cover doesn't cut it against AV13/6HP/4++ super heavy and you can bet the Knight will be the first of many.

I'd want a BA codex that dealt with Super Heavies rather than Tau and Eldar.

Deep Striking melta suits cuts it against that though.

 Peregrine wrote:

 BlackArmour wrote:
so far I've gathered get rid of the things that make BA's play as BA's.

Except that's not true at all. Look at the things that define BA, as opposed to all the random filler units that GW had to invent to justify giving them an entire codex. The core of the army is:

1) Assault squads as troops.

2) Fast vehicles.

3) Black rage.

So, put them in C:SM with the following chapter tactics:

Rapid Assault: The BA chapter is known for their fast, aggressive assault tactics. Assault squads drop into battle from Thunderhawk gunships, while their armored spearheads race forward to support them. An army with Chapter Tactics: BA may take assault squads as troops, and all Rhino-hull vehicles gain the Fast subtype (their special Predator turrets are just part of C:SM).

Red Thirst/Black Rage: The BA suffer from a crippling flaw: at any moment they could give in to their rage and be consumed by it, becoming little more than mindless killing machines. All BA models gain the Furious Charge USR and FNP (4+) against all close combat attacks. Before deployment roll A D6 for each unit with Chapter Tactics: BA in your army. On a 1 the unit also gains the Rage USR, but is never counted as a scoring or denial unit, and always counts as being destroyed at the end of the game in missions where this is relevant.

There, now you've captured the entire concept of the BA chapter without needing to spend an entire codex on them.

This. No space marine chapter is unique enough to need its own codex IMO, except maybe Space Wolves and Grey Knights.

Even Dark Angels could have been done in the SM codex (they might have been better off too!).

Except for Baal Preds, Death Company, Sanguinary Guard, Sanguinary Priests, Death Company Dreads, and Furioso Dreadnoughts... Yeah they're basically red ultramarines.

 MephistonLoD wrote:
Except for Baal Preds, Death Company, Sanguinary Guard, Sanguinary Priests, Death Company Dreads, and Furioso Dreadnoughts... Yeah they're basically red ultramarines.

Most of these are easily represented by a single wargear option on existing units.

Furioso dreads become an upgrade from one of the three existing dread options. Same could be done for death company dreads as a BA only option.

Sanguinary priests are functionally apothecaries, which all marines should have access to anyways, so that would fix that while adding more options for other marines.

Sanguinary guard are a tweaked honour guard with jetpacks. Easily represented by honour guard units given a jetpack option for all, and BA having the option to purchase glaive encarmines.

Baal preds are just normal preds with a slightly different loadout (similar to ones available from FW anyways) in the FA slot; something all the marines could use anyways.

Death company I can see being their unique troop choice, like BT.

Give them a CT, and boom, BA are represented almost whole cloth with a few pages and some wargear options while also adding more variety to other marines, which opens up more potential for DIY/custom chapters.

*Edit* And really, they are just red Ultras. Every marine chapter is just a different coloured power armoured, bolter wielding dude. The BA are even codex compliant, with only very minor changes. The Sallies are less codex compliant, and they're represented just fine in C:SM.

 Blacksails wrote:

 MephistonLoD wrote:
Except for Baal Preds, Death Company, Sanguinary Guard, Sanguinary Priests, Death Company Dreads, and Furioso Dreadnoughts... Yeah they're basically red ultramarines.

Most of these are easily represented by a single wargear option on existing units.

Furioso dreads become an upgrade from one of the three existing dread options. Same could be done for death company dreads as a BA only option.

Sanguinary priests are functionally apothecaries, which all marines should have access to anyways, so that would fix that while adding more options for other marines.

Sanguinary guard are a tweaked honour guard with jetpacks. Easily represented by honour guard units given a jetpack option for all, and BA having the option to purchase glaive encarmines.

Baal preds are just normal preds with a slightly different loadout (similar to ones available from FW anyways) in the FA slot; something all the marines could use anyways.

Death company I can see being their unique troop choice, like BT.

Give them a CT, and boom, BA are represented almost whole cloth with a few pages and some wargear options while also adding more variety to other marines, which opens up more potential for DIY/custom chapters.

*Edit* And really, they are just red Ultras. Every marine chapter is just a different coloured power armoured, bolter wielding dude. The BA are even codex compliant, with only very minor changes. The Sallies are less codex compliant, and they're represented just fine in C:SM.

No. Just stop, All you're doing is taking away the unique/awesome look of the Blood Angels by taking models I listed and calling them something they are not. Leave them the way they are.

Good Grief, I though we left this back on page 4.

Please do not fill this with Roll them into one Codex Chatter.
>It Did Not Happen
>It is Not Going to Happen

Can we move on and talk about the Bling.

 MephistonLoD wrote:

No. Just stop, All you're doing is taking away the unique/awesome look of the Blood Angels by taking models I listed and calling them something they are not. Leave them the way they are.

Not at all. The way BA look and feel isn't dependent on a codex. The models, paint jobs, and other aesthetics are dependent on your ability to field a good looking army, while the game play feel would remain virtually unchanged with what I suggested.

If you'd like to respond to my ideas in a coherent manner and maybe have a discussion about the merits of it, please feel free to do so. Telling me to just stop because you don't like it is hardly compelling.

Take a step back from the emotional attachment and look at it mechanically.

And even discussing them as a separate codex doesn't leave a whole lot of room for much particularly exciting. I suspect it'll see points alterations (some for the better, some for the worse), a slightly changed CT style thing, and a flyer variant.

They really aren't much different than any other marine chapter.

Really i'd just be happy with a fair point decrease, and a new interesting way to get into Assault a little easier. There was an idea a few pages back about the Red Thirst and Assaulting from Deep Strike, loved that idea! I don't think we're far from balanced minus the big price tags we pay.

 Blacksails wrote:

 MephistonLoD wrote:

No. Just stop, All you're doing is taking away the unique/awesome look of the Blood Angels by taking models I listed and calling them something they are not. Leave them the way they are.

Not at all. The way BA look and feel isn't dependent on a codex. The models, paint jobs, and other aesthetics are dependent on your ability to field a good looking army, while the game play feel would remain virtually unchanged with what I suggested.

If you'd like to respond to my ideas in a coherent manner and maybe have a discussion about the merits of it, please feel free to do so. Telling me to just stop because you don't like it is hardly compelling.

Take a step back from the emotional attachment and look at it mechanically.

And even discussing them as a separate codex doesn't leave a whole lot of room for much particularly exciting. I suspect it'll see points alterations (some for the better, some for the worse), a slightly changed CT style thing, and a flyer variant.

They really aren't much different than any other marine chapter.

Again, when I pointed out what this did to BT you shrugged if off with a "well their old rules were bad too!".

To say they're all red ultras? Really? Tell me how mundane, blue boyscout guardians of humanity are the same as space vampires succumbing to millinea old insanity via rage/blood lust, or anti-social space vikings with a furry-esque fixation on wolves?

As for what I want from the dex?

- EW for Dante and his damb I6 back
- Inv save and an AP 2 sword for mephy
-Points cuts obviously
- Better way to get into assault. Either assault from DS via DoA (even if its only from a no scatter DS) or the ability to charge after running instead of FC. Perhaps an option for assault ramps on transports.
- Counter attack and/or WS 5 (for CC troops).

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:



Again, when I pointed out what this did to BT you shrugged if off with a "well their old rules were bad too!".

I don't remember saying something like that, I do remember saying that I'd tweak what they have now to improve them appropriately. The concept of rolling them in was fine, but with much of GW, the execution was flawed. There really isn't too much to be done to make BT perfectly fine within C:SM.

But once again, I do support improving them. I do understand they're not ideal as they are now, but I also don't think a separate codex would fix that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BaalSNAFU wrote:
To say they're all red ultras? Really? Tell me how mundane, blue boyscout guardians of humanity are the same as space vampires succumbing to millinea old insanity via rage/blood lust, or anti-social space vikings with a furry-esque fixation on wolves?

A CT captures all of that, as well as the background fluff.

Really, as BA are right now, they share the majority of their units anyways with C:SM.

 Blacksails wrote:

 MephistonLoD wrote:

No. Just stop, All you're doing is taking away the unique/awesome look of the Blood Angels by taking models I listed and calling them something they are not. Leave them the way they are.

Not at all. The way BA look and feel isn't dependent on a codex. The models, paint jobs, and other aesthetics are dependent on your ability to field a good looking army, while the game play feel would remain virtually unchanged with what I suggested.

If you'd like to respond to my ideas in a coherent manner and maybe have a discussion about the merits of it, please feel free to do so. Telling me to just stop because you don't like it is hardly compelling.

Take a step back from the emotional attachment and look at it mechanically.

And even discussing them as a separate codex doesn't leave a whole lot of room for much particularly exciting. I suspect it'll see points alterations (some for the better, some for the worse), a slightly changed CT style thing, and a flyer variant.

They really aren't much different than any other marine chapter.

Take a step back emotionally from my beloved Angels I've invested thousands of dollars and hours into? Nah. I think i'll have my own personal opinion on them and stick with that.

 Blacksails wrote:
But once again, I do support improving them. I do understand they're not ideal as they are now, but I also don't think a separate codex would fix that.

And Rolling them into the Space Marine Codex does.

What is wrong with a separate codex, no one is going to hold a bolt gun to your head and make you buy it unless you are a Blood Angels Player. Even if you are and you find you don’t like it you can just not buy it and use a “Count-As” with something from Codex: Space Marine.

 Blacksails wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:



Again, when I pointed out what this did to BT you shrugged if off with a "well their old rules were bad too!".

I don't remember saying something like that, I do remember saying that I'd tweak what they have now to improve them appropriately. The concept of rolling them in was fine, but with much of GW, the execution was flawed. There really isn't too much to be done to make BT perfectly fine within C:SM.

But once again, I do support improving them. I do understand they're not ideal as they are now, but I also don't think a separate codex would fix that.

I can agree with that (minus the separate Codex part). It's not that I think it's undoable, it's just I've not seen it done in a convincing way yet. The issue, in my opinion, is that Vanilla marines has more of a shooting slant whereas BA, BT, and SW have an assault slant. Trying to cram in melee armies in a shooting Codex and only changing some CTs isn't going to be enough.