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So to my understanding the cover of a defense line is based on line of sight still. I was playing against an opponents tau and managed to get my flyrant up to within a inch or two of his line. He of course went to ground for a two up cover but what happens when the majority of his models are 100% visible to my flyrant? Yes, he did have a model from each squad that was touching of the base of the defense line. Can anyone help me with this? The guy does like to rules lawyer so i'm going to have to find proof if they don't get the cover save. I've searched the forum already and didn't find it, and i can't find anything in the book that says he gets a cover save if los isn't blocked.

If you have 100% visibility, then no cover.

Actually, he'll have a 6+ from GtG.
GtG gives +1 (+2 behind an aegis) however, since you have MORE than 75% LoS to his models, he will only get the +1, making it 6+ because no aegis cover.

So when i get up to him i'm sure a couple models in the squad will still be slightly covered by the defense line, even if i'm next to it. So i should give those up close models an appropriate cover save say they are 25%, plus going to ground so maybe a 4+ cover, then after i kill off the ones right against the way all the other models will be 100% visible. I know he will argue it, so i'm preparing for the next match. I'm tired of an entire tau army getting 2 up cover even when my flyer or mc is under 6' away.

 Rotary wrote:
So to my understanding the cover of a defense line is based on line of sight still. I was playing against an opponents tau and managed to get my flyrant up to within a inch or two of his line. He of course went to ground for a two up cover but what happens when the majority of his models are 100% visible to my flyrant? Yes, he did have a model from each squad that was touching of the base of the defense line. Can anyone help me with this? The guy does like to rules lawyer so i'm going to have to find proof if they don't get the cover save. I've searched the forum already and didn't find it, and i can't find anything in the book that says he gets a cover save if los isn't blocked.

Only the models that are actually 25% or more obscured get the cover save. Models that are not at least 25% obscured do not get a cover save.

 Rotary wrote:
So when i get up to him i'm sure a couple models in the squad will still be slightly covered by the defense line, even if i'm next to it. So i should give those up close models an appropriate cover save say they are 25%, plus going to ground so maybe a 4+ cover, then after i kill off the ones right against the way all the other models will be 100% visible. I know he will argue it, so i'm preparing for the next match. I'm tired of an entire tau army getting 2 up cover even when my flyer or mc is under 6' away.

Any models behind his aegis that are 25%+obscured will get 4+ (so yeah, probably just the ones hugging it), but they still get +2 to their cover save for GtG behind an aegis. But the ones farther back (the non-obscured) will only get a 6+ (assuming they've gone to ground and aren't in area terrain) since they aren't obscured by the ADL.
Alternatively, declare focus fire 6+.
The ones getting 2+ cover will be alive, but the ones with 6+ cover are the only ones that will get wounded.
XD

DeathReaper,
I think the real question is:
If the unit goes to ground behind a Defense Line but some of the models are 100% visible to the Firer; do those visible models get a 5 or a 6 for their cover save?
It is an interesting pondering too, as we all can easily agree on how it is meant to be played but the rules themselves are vague enough to allow 'Those ******* guys' some flexibility.

The first issue is the sole requirement listed in the rule, in particular the word "behind," being the core of that vagueness. Needless to say; we do not need to re-open the concept that the Defense Line has to have a 'front and back,' something people have raised in the past when they first tried to understand the Defense Line and how units behind it gain cover saves. As reasonable as it was to state back then, it is still reasonable to state that the Defense Line would have to be between the two units in question in order for one or the other to be considered behind it for the purpose of a rule. However what is 'reasonable' or 'logical' doesn't matter at all when it comes to Rules as Written, only what is written, and the lack of a clear definition to determine 'behind' will be used by someone out there to create unusual shenanigans and declare 'supported by Rules as Written.'

Next problem I am encountering is the fact the Defense Line Rules inform us that a unit which goes to ground gains 2+ to their save instead of a +1. Their use of the word Unit, as opposed to Model, makes it possible to state this rule applies to every model in the unit once it has been evoked. Once it is being applied to every model then it no longer matters if an individual model is 100% visible. This wonderful piece of writing, sarcasm intended, is clearly a good example of why a Rule written to interact with something only models have should do everything to avoid using the terminology Unit anywhere within their body unless it is vitally needed for the Rule in question and is very precise on what it is meaning for the Unit to do and for the individual Models to do. Coupled with the above vagueness of how we determine if an entire unit is behind the Defense Line, it raises even more grounds for different 'interpretations' as to what triggers this rule and how far it can extend once it is triggered.

On that point, a possible counter argument, based on Rules as Written:
All measurements between two units are carried out using a direct path between the closest models so if a Defense Line is not on that direct path it is not 'between' the two unit and if it is not between how can someone state a unit is behind it?

JinxDragon wrote:


On that point, a possible counter argument, based on Rules as Written:
All measurements between two units are carried out using a direct path between the closest models so if a Defense Line is not on that direct path it is not 'between' the two unit and if it is not between how can someone state a unit is behind it?

Well then in that case , no the direct line of sight to a MC or FMC is not blocked at all. None the less this opponent has brought the same list for the last 3 games and everyone is tired of it. He basically sits 2k points of tau behind a defense line and gives them an amazingly cheap army wide 2+ cover as long as they stay behind it. If their range wasn't so good it wouldnt be an issue, but if you have to cross into his fire line to get an objective it's going to be difficult to hold.

Indeed Rotary,
While it is possible for the closest model to be 'behind the Line,' the situation you described made that very unlikely. If the majority of a unit is 0% obscured, there is a very good chance that the firing model is in a position where the closest model is one of those 0% obscured models. That is why I put it forth as a possible answer, it was doubtful this would be causing a problem for you if it wasn't for the fact the majority are clearly not covered by the Defense Line. Given that we have instructions informing us how to measure distance between units, it seems plausible that we could use the same instructions to figure out if something is officially between two units, as they inform us how to determine the points we must measuring from.

Also keep in mind that the Rules have some grounds for shooting 'over' something, and this again could be used in this situation. In the rules informing us about intervening models, aka models that the targets are behind, it explains that shots which go over-top of the intervening models do not trigger this Rule. This is one of a very small number of rules that involve an object of any describing being between the firing unit and the target, probably the only one that easily comes to mind which doesn't involve the 25% obscured rule, so it is very useful to make a precedent case. Given the higher angle of the Flying Monstrous Creature, it would be even more difficult for your opponent to prove that the Defense Line is 'between' the two units in question.

Without the Line between the two units, how would your opponent prove the unit is 'behind' it when they try to evoke this rule?

Well, this guy is more competitive with the game than the rest of us. None of us mind that fact but his motivation to win sometimes leads to rule bending like this and it has worn thin of the last few months. Everyone else enjoys the game, but he gets really upset if you don't agree with his way of seeing the rules. I'm simply researching this topic so next game i can have solid counter arguments to his. I don't expect it will be game changing, but at least playing the cover save properly could help to get the moral of the group back up when facing him.

Take some barrage weapons and sit at the back of you DZ and blow the bejesus out of his clumped up units till he tires of the tactic.

One trick ponies are just that. Easy to counter if you know he will do it.

 Steel-W0LF wrote:
Take some barrage weapons and sit at the back of you DZ and blow the bejesus out of his clumped up units till he tires of the tactic.

One trick ponies are just that. Easy to counter if you know he will do it.

Or flame weapons. Or anything with ignores cover, honestly.

Looking at what someone else posted, I forgot it was the entire unit, not just the models.
So either call "Focus fire 5+" so only the ones not hugging the ADL get wounded or, as I believe someone else mentioned, get behind the aegis.
He can't say he gets a 4+/2+ cover save because of the ADL if you're on the same side since there is no cover. He can still GtG for a 6+ (maybe a 5+ because of that iffy wording...)

Is assault an option? No cover in assault.
Also, you realise that when he does GtG for a 2+ cover he needs 6s to hit on his next turn, then they get up and fire normally on his turn after. (IIRC). So keep him GtG and it *should* make it harder for him. Someone feel free to correct me on this, I don't do GtG that much honestly.
I know Tau have a way of raising their BS, but I'm sure that's only on certain models. Something to do with Pathfinders, I think?
I don't play Tau and there's only two or three Tau players in my LGS

 Steel-W0LF wrote:
I know Tau have a way of raising their BS, but I'm sure that's only on certain models. Something to do with Pathfinders, I think?
I don't play Tau and there's only two or three Tau players in my LGS

You're thinking of markerlights, also I wish I lived under the rock you've been under, because the things just make everyone's lives worse. (except for the tau of course.)
Any of their models equipped with the lights could mark a unit and make the unit that had gone to ground have better BS, even on snap shots, against that unit.

I think in the case of a flyer being right over an ADL, I'd advise you to remember focus fire, so that he can't "tank" the wounds with the guys up front, and instead has to take significantly worse saves from the guys behind. As for whether GTG is +1 or +2 because it's "behind" an ADL in a loose definition...by hiwp, I'd say +1. By ridiculous-as-written? Yeah +2.

niv-mizzet wrote:

 Steel-W0LF wrote:
I know Tau have a way of raising their BS, but I'm sure that's only on certain models. Something to do with Pathfinders, I think?
I don't play Tau and there's only two or three Tau players in my LGS

You're thinking of markerlights, also I wish I lived under the rock you've been under, because the things just make everyone's lives worse. (except for the tau of course.)
Any of their models equipped with the lights could mark a unit and make the unit that had gone to ground have better BS, even on snap shots, against that unit.

I think in the case of a flyer being right over an ADL, I'd advise you to remember focus fire, so that he can't "tank" the wounds with the guys up front, and instead has to take significantly worse saves from the guys behind. As for whether GTG is +1 or +2 because it's "behind" an ADL in a loose definition...by hiwp, I'd say +1. By ridiculous-as-written? Yeah +2.

Just call focus fire 5+ so you're safe. He'll get a 6+ if it's a 6+ but you can still hurt him if he insists it'd be 5+.
:3

Off topic; Move to my area, then.
We have all the rocks.

Just mind the DE and Space Wolf players. They're competitive as *ahem*.
<.<

Focus Fire might not be as useful as some people are thinking.

Focus Fire Rules state that models which go to ground after Focus Fire is announced still count as models which can have wounds allocated to them, regardless if their cover save is now better then the Focus Fire announcement. As far as I know, it also lacks instructions informing us to ignore the Going to Ground modifier being applied by the very poorly worded Defense Line. So even the models 100% visible can claim they are entitled to a 5+ cover save even if you focus fire on only those models, the same save they would be getting anyway in this situation. That exploiting of a poorly worded Rule is the core of the problem and Focus Fire does not prevent 'those ******* guy's' from gaining the benefits of the exploit.

I'm just going to take a few minute break here to rant to myself over the use of the word 'unit' in a rule designed to modify 'model' characteristics!

Also, the angles being discussed mean the closest models are likely 100% visible to begin with. As the closest models in the unit, wounds would be allocated to them first as part of the normal process. Focus Fire wouldn't change this factor in the slightest, it only ignores those with the better save and those are further back in the unit, so it would therefore make only the slightest of impacts on the exploitation of this Rule.

Only in situations where the closest model, or the second if not third closest model, is benefiting from the 25% Obscured bonus does Focus Fire make a difference. In situations where it is the tenth model gaining a bonus to their Cover Saves, and the rest are in the open, there is no real need to announce Focus Fire unless one really believes they will generate 10+ wounds. However in the normal situations where the closest model, or two, have a higher Cover Save are those which Focus Fire was designed for. Always consider Focus Fire when you are facing a unit with mixed Cover Saves, particularly if the models in the front are gaining the better Cover Save, as it would be a disservice to your Army not to.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Rotary wrote:
So to my understanding the cover of a defense line is based on line of sight still. I was playing against an opponents tau and managed to get my flyrant up to within a inch or two of his line. He of course went to ground for a two up cover but what happens when the majority of his models are 100% visible to my flyrant? Yes, he did have a model from each squad that was touching of the base of the defense line. Can anyone help me with this? The guy does like to rules lawyer so i'm going to have to find proof if they don't get the cover save. I've searched the forum already and didn't find it, and i can't find anything in the book that says he gets a cover save if los isn't blocked.

Only the models that are actually 25% or more obscured get the cover save. Models that are not at least 25% obscured do not get a cover save.

This is correct. Additionally, those models that are not obscurred but are within 2" of the ADL will still get the 2+ modifier.

 Inquisitor Lord Cuthbert wrote:
Additionally, those models that are not obscurred but are within 2" of the ADL will still get the 2+ modifier.

Citation required. Nothing on page 104 says that.

 Inquisitor Lord Cuthbert wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Rotary wrote:
So to my understanding the cover of a defense line is based on line of sight still. I was playing against an opponents tau and managed to get my flyrant up to within a inch or two of his line. He of course went to ground for a two up cover but what happens when the majority of his models are 100% visible to my flyrant? Yes, he did have a model from each squad that was touching of the base of the defense line. Can anyone help me with this? The guy does like to rules lawyer so i'm going to have to find proof if they don't get the cover save. I've searched the forum already and didn't find it, and i can't find anything in the book that says he gets a cover save if los isn't blocked.

Only the models that are actually 25% or more obscured get the cover save. Models that are not at least 25% obscured do not get a cover save.

This is correct. Additionally, those models that are not obscurred but are within 2" of the ADL will still get the 2+ modifier.

This is incorrect. Distance does not matter, only obscurement. If the model is not obscured, then it does not get a cover save from the wall.

 Steel-W0LF wrote:
Take some barrage weapons and sit at the back of you DZ and blow the bejesus out of his clumped up units till he tires of the tactic.

One trick ponies are just that. Easy to counter if you know he will do it.

Agreed. If you can't make him see reason that he is interpreting the rules incorrectly, then adapt.
Take weapons that state [Ignores cover]

Since from your profile I'm assuming you play Nids.
My suggestions would be:
- Biovores
- Hive Guard
- Tyrannofex (acid Spray)

Alternatively go under his ADL, with deep strikes.
- Raverners
- Trygons
- Mawlocs
- Even the increadibly terrible ripper can deep strike if you pay for it.

Another option if he wants to play the rules as written game.
- Buy 5 Pyrovores, get them behind his lines then let him kill them.
- Then inform him the combined explosion of these pyrovore just wiped out his army.

Volatile: If a Pyrovore is slain by a Wound that inflicted Instant Death, every unit suffers
a Strength 3 AP- hit for each model (excluding Pyrovores) within D6" of the slain
Pyrovore (resolve damage before removing the Pyrovore as a casualty).

rigeld2 wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Cuthbert wrote:
Additionally, those models that are not obscurred but are within 2" of the ADL will still get the 2+ modifier.

Citation required. Nothing on page 104 says that.

It is also a quite common misunderstanding of the rules - come across this concept a few times in tournaments.

I presume it comes from the old firing out of area terrain ruels in 5th, which had a 2" stipulation.