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That 15 minutes should be used for standardized testing prep! We don't have time to waste on stupid prayers. We have testing dollars to earn!

Exactly!

(you're attempt at satire is actually way more real then it should be).

Yeah. It's getting depressing in here.

 Frazzled wrote:

I see rebel flags, chicken fried steak, lots of poor folk, and no one speaks Spanish.

No chicken fried steak in Texas?

 dogma wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

I see rebel flags, chicken fried steak, lots of poor folk, and no one speaks Spanish.

No chicken fried steak in Texas?

I know its scary. Its getting difficult to get half decent chicken fried steak outside of East Texas. Goodies still makes its 2/3 plate sized "small" and full plate sized large one. Mmmm chicke fried steak...

 Frazzled wrote:

 dogma wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

I see rebel flags, chicken fried steak, lots of poor folk, and no one speaks Spanish.

No chicken fried steak in Texas?

I know its scary. Its getting difficult to get half decent chicken fried steak outside of East Texas. Goodies still makes its 2/3 plate sized "small" and full plate sized large one. Mmmm chicke fried steak...

Hmmmm... Country Fried Steak is like one of the ultimate comfort food.

Oh... and also the St. Louis Pork Steaks. (if you haven't tried THAT, you don't know what you're missing)

Is that like a pork chop?

 Frazzled wrote:
Is that like a pork chop?

Oh hell naw man.

It's like this:

 whembly wrote:

He's refering to Congress and not state legislatures.

Do you believe incorporation is a bad thing?

That does look good Whembly.

 dogma wrote:

 whembly wrote:

He's refering to Congress and not state legislatures.

Do you believe incorporation is a bad thing?

Bad... not really. I'm assuming you're meaning that state governments are largely held to the same standards as the federal government.

 Frazzled wrote:

I know its scary. Its getting difficult to get half decent chicken fried steak outside of East Texas. Goodies still makes its 2/3 plate sized "small" and full plate sized large one. Mmmm chicke fried steak...

Chicken and waffles is more common up here, but chicken fried steak is still available.

Have you considered breaded pork tenderloin? I hear there is a reasonably large Eastern European community in Texas.

 Frazzled wrote:
Is that like a pork chop?

Imagine a pork chop, bone in, from pork shoulder. The proud citizens of St. Louis usually barbecue them, though I like to use a sauce made of chili garlic sauce, soy sauce, and apricot preserves when I'm making my own.

Ninja'd.

 whembly wrote:

Bad... not really. I'm assuming you're meaning that state governments are largely held to the same standards as the federal government.

Yes, because they are. And I don't see how that's bad.

I mean, absent incorporation, there is no right for anyone to bear arms without an equivalent state provision.

 CptJake wrote:
I suspect some teacher will find a prayer delivered by an Iman to congress, and if so, should use it as the teaching point for the day.

In fact, here is one they could use:

http://harunyahya.com/en/Returning-to-faith/121607/imam-antepli-delivers-opening-prayer

And may as well use one from this Rabbi the next day:

http://www.jta.org/1930/01/09/archive/rabbi-delivers-prayer-at-session-of-congress

$
Ohhhh. Did anyone ever started congress by reciting “Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn” ? How could would that be !

 Platuan4th wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I think there are significantly bigger problems with the American school system than whether the kids can pray or not.

Again America: Priorities.

You're conflicting state and national governing policies, HBMC.

You don't think the states have a role to play in improving their own education systems?

 sebster wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I think there are significantly bigger problems with the American school system than whether the kids can pray or not.

Again America: Priorities.

You're conflicting state and national governing policies, HBMC.

You don't think the states have a role to play in improving their own education systems?

Not really since they nearly all prove as equally inept as the feds at it.

 Easy E wrote:
That 15 minutes should be used for standardized testing prep! We don't have time to waste on stupid prayers. We have testing dollars to earn!

This is the most truthful thing posted on Dakka Dakka in a long time, sadly.

"Earn those standardized test $$$, you lazy teachers! Dance!" - Politicians everywhere.

So, wait, do they make teacher's pay dependent on the number of hours of testing the kids get?
That's a terrible idea.

 Da Boss wrote:
So, wait, do they make teacher's pay dependent on the number of hours of testing the kids get?
That's a terrible idea.

No.

Many of the School District's fundings comes from the Federal Government. As such, the politician thinks it's a great idea that in order to get these fundings, the students must take and score well on standardized tests.

As such, the curriculum is often "teach the kids to take this test"... rather than simply to "teach the kids".

Schools that do well get more funding.

Schools that do poorly get less funding, giving them fewer resources to raise their standards.

Winning!

 Frazzled wrote:
Exactly!

(you're attempt at satire is actually way more real then it should be).

I always find the best satire is truth set to 11.

 kronk wrote:
Schools that do well get more funding.

Schools that do poorly get less funding, giving them fewer resources to raise their standards.

Winning!

It doesn't work that way. Except for Race to the Top which was competitive, federal and state money is doled out on a formula basis depending upon a variety of factors. Currently, I am unaware of any state that uses test scores as a factor in funding their State Aid formula.

It usually works the opposite, and often in an unweildy manner. An example is the concept of "School Improvement". If your school performs poorly on whatever ranking system your state has (it used to be AYP, now it's AMOs), under the auspices of the ESEA Flexibility Waiver, you stand to be designated as a Priority or Focus School. These designations depend on a few factors which will vary a bit according to the state's waiver application but in general Priority schools are your bottom 5% schools and Focus schools are those schools with under-performing subgroups (African American, ELL, IEP).

So your school receives a designation due to poor academic performance, federal regs require a heftier investment of federal dollars in these schools to help them improve; this is accomplished by requiring more Title I money to be pumped in and qualifies the school to receive federal SIG funds (School Improvement Grant). What actually happens is that this requries districts to funnel Title I funds away from other Title I schools in the district to these underperforming schools where, more often than not, many of the under-performing kids have either moved away or onto a different school (i.e. from elementary to middle school).

If you're still awake and curious about federal funding and public education, just ask, it's what I do for a living.

Texas does with their state funds.

 kronk wrote:
Texas does with their state funds.

You're right and your wrong. I just checked with the TEA and they use similar data points to those used in Oklahoma. They primarily use what's called a weighted ADA (average daily attendance). Districts have required reporting periods throughout the school year wherein they report the numbers of students and then disaggregate that number into subgroups to determine funding. The subgroups usually most heavily weighted are free/reduced lunch count, Special Education count and Bilingual/ELL count. Some states include a number of other factors which might include the number of students who are in GT (Gifted and Talented) programs which would encapsulate the test score angle to an extent.

The biggest factors that affect State Aid are going to be district tax collections as the state will reduce district allocations by a like amount to account for the district's additional income. Texas' looks like this:
Funding Element 2012–2013 2013–2014 2014–2015
Basic Allotment $4,765 $4,950 $5,040
Equalized Wealth Level (EWL) 1 $476,500 $495,000 $504,000
EWL 3 $319,500 $319,500 $319,500
Guaranteed Yield Level 1 $59.97 $59.97 $61.86
Guaranteed Yield Level 2 $31.95 $31.95 $31.95
Regular Program Adjustment Factor 0.9800 1.0000 1.0000
(RPAF)
Target Revenue Adjustment Factor 0.9235 0.9263 0.9263
(TRAF)
•$330 million to be distributed on a per ADA basis next year as one-time assistance for TRS costs
(SB 1458). Estimated allocation of $67.55

Source: http://www.tea.state.tx.us/index4.aspx?id=6791 - State Funding Data Elements, Sources & Timelines - Jan 2014

Edit: That said, there might be a secondary allocation of funds to high-performing schools (i.e Blue Ribbon Schools) which is not tied to the basic state aid formula.

 whembly wrote:

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

The First Amendment?

Not sure if you're messing with me right now or serious

EDITing for clarity. Not trying to sound like a jerk, but I thought that this was a major thing covered in the First Amendment and then Thomas Jefferson clarified on it. It's been a while since I took US history though so I might be getting some of this wrong.

Sorta messing with ya....

President Thomas Jefferson wrote to the Danbury Baptist Association assuring them that he would keep the Government out of the Church... note that he didn't say he'd advocate to keep the Church out of the Government.

People seems to think Prez Jefferson was a raging atheist... he was far from that... even wrote these words in 1781 that now appear on his memorial in D.C.: "Can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the gift of God?" What do you think he meant by that?

The “separation of church and state” originated in that U.S. Supreme Court’s 1947 decision of Everson v. Board of Education. What's funny is that this decision references a private letter Jefferson wrote as President in 1802, where he said:

“I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should ‘make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof’, thus building a wall of separa­tion between Church and State.”

He's refering to Congress and not state legislatures.

As a whole, Jef­ferson was referring to the fact that the establishment clause to prohibit Congress from establishing a national church. The founders obviously didn't want a repeat of the Church of England.

He was also such a "States Rights" guy, he said that the whole matter of religion should (or is) left by the Constitution to the States in one of his inaugural address.

So, when someone says "we're ignoring the 'separation clause' " I'd like to ask where that is... because, I know it doesn't exist in the way people sometime thinks it does.

Disclaimer: I wouldn't consider myself religious... as I don't go to church. But, I'm not an atheist either... so, not sure what that makes me. But I find these topics interesting.

The more you know! Thanks man, The way it was covered in high school was that it was a definite part of the constitution.

That's what I get for going to a public high school

 agnosto wrote:
Not really since they nearly all prove as equally inept as the feds at it.

Oh, well I guess they better get back to wasting their time legislating for schools to read out prayers read by congress.

Self-fulfilling prophecy, much?

 sebster wrote:

 agnosto wrote:
Not really since they nearly all prove as equally inept as the feds at it.

Oh, well I guess they better get back to wasting their time legislating for schools to read out prayers read by congress.

Self-fulfilling prophecy, much?

I'm very jaded in the matter. I have seen bill after bill work its way through my state legislature. Each one started as a well-meaning "adjustment" to public education but ended in nothing more than increased confusion and bureaucracy.

Witness Oklahoma's Teacher and school accountability law; it's currently in its...what now? 4th iteration. The legislature in its infinite wisdom has tinkered with it so much that we now have schools that are severely under-performing winding up with high grades and other schools that are greatly improving actually decreasing in grades in the A-F system. One school in my district increased test scores in reading by 12% and math scores by 6% but somehow dropped from a "C" school to a "D" school. In small, rural districts there are not enough students in certain subgroups to be disaggregated for testing (i.e. those on IEPs) so they naturally get a boost in the overall grade. Several universities have completed studies on the formula and informed both the Oklahoma State Department of Education and the State Legislature that there is no real science behind the results and that the whole thing should be rethought if we're to actually get meaningful results; nope, we'll have none of that.

Then there's the 3rd Grade Retention law (the reading sufficiency act) with its host of ills. Then the Teacher and Leader Effectiveness law....

On and on. Combine this with the fact that Oklahoma funds schools at a miserable rate and that the legislators don't bother to speak to educators or researchers before passing these laws and you have a mess. Even the feds stepped in when they decided to drop out of PARCC without a plan of what next and USDE had to step in and ask for a plan by a certain deadline because the OSDE hadn't even bothered to produce and RFP to find a testing vendor.

So, there's the State dabbling in Education.

 agnosto wrote:
I'm very jaded in the matter. I have seen bill after bill work its way through my state legislature. Each one started as a well-meaning "adjustment" to public education but ended in nothing more than increased confusion and bureaucracy.

Hey, I work in state education (vocational & tertiary) and spend days every week working through out own state system, so you don't have to tell me about well meaning systems that don't quite get there

So, there's the State dabbling in Education.

Thing is, the State isn't dabbling in Education. It is the public education system. There's some federal money, but the thing is run at the state level.

So the answer can't ever be 'no state dabbling', but only improved state management of public education.

 sebster wrote:
So the answer can't ever be 'no state dabbling',

Sure it can.