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No tarvits defiantly died. And I think his unglorious death was a nod to the grimness of 40k that even hero's die unnoticed and forgotten.
As for fulgrim stealing forge breaker wasn't he already possessed by the demon in the sword by then and the real fulgrim was pushed to the back of his mind ??
Automatically Appended Next Post:
brother marcus wrote: No tarvits defiantly died. And I think his unglorious death was a nod to the grimness of 40k that even hero's die unnoticed and forgotten. Garro and qruze where the one that got away protecting that saint lady and were the founders of the grey knights
As for fulgrim stealing forge breaker wasn't he already possessed by the demon in the sword by then and the real fulgrim was pushed to the back of his mind ??
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/02/25 12:25:40
If Julius regretted his decision during the massacre in La Fenice, he got over it quickly as by the dropsite, he and Vairosean are two of the most corrupted individuals in the battle.
Rylanor and Tarvitz are currently MIA, we have had no comfirmation of either death, certainly not of Rylanor.
Personally, I liked Solomon's death, it summed up the tragic end of the Great Crusade. One of the Legion's most decorated officers dies out of sight, after being tricked into helping the traitors.
Did Fulgrim use forge breaker at the dropsite? I honestly don't remember or have the book on hand as I am at work. i thought he caved in Ferrus's skull with it on board his ship when he tried to turn him and then brought the Laer blade to Istvaan...he certainly kills Ferrus with the blade.
Personally I hate the fallen Emperor's Children more than any other Legion because no other Legion fell so far, so fast and for such selfish reasons. They are a total perversion of the Legiones Astartes, even the other Traitors could see that. I think I especially hated them because I liked their loyalist characters so much, Vespasian, Tarvitz, Solomon and Rylanor were all the embodiement of what the EC's stood for before arrogance and self aggrandisement started poisoning their values. I hate Fulgrim the most of all the traitor Primarchs because he was so pathetic that despite being surrounded by some of the greatest Space Marine Commanders, he chose to listen to Self loving incompetants like Eidolon and Sycophants like Marius, just because they told him what he wanted to hear. He was such a petulant child, and the only redeeming thing about him is seemingly retconned in the next few stories he is in (I won't spoil by saying what I mean)
Personally I hate the fallen Emperor's Children more than any other Legion because no other Legion fell so far, so fast and for such selfish reasons. They are a total perversion of the Legiones Astartes, even the other Traitors could see that. I think I especially hated them because I liked their loyalist characters so much, Vespasian, Tarvitz, Solomon and Rylanor were all the embodiement of what the EC's stood for before arrogance and self aggrandisement started poisoning their values. I hate Fulgrim the most of all the traitor Primarchs because he was so pathetic that despite being surrounded by some of the greatest Space Marine Commanders, he chose to listen to Self loving incompetants like Eidolon and Sycophants like Marius, just because they told him what he wanted to hear. He was such a petulant child, and the only redeeming thing about him is seemingly retconned in the next few stories he is in (I won't spoil by saying what I mean)
This
also im pretty sure that Julius regretted it at the time but you seem him a couple of books later (like 20) and he is more than happy to be a Knob, i feel a little sorry for Eidolon as well though but only later in the books as mentioned by KorPhaeron. which i also wont spoil
Did Fulgrim use forge breaker at the dropsite? I honestly don't remember or have the book on hand as I am at work. i thought he caved in Ferrus's skull with it on board his ship when he tried to turn him and then brought the Laer blade to Istvaan...he certainly kills Ferrus with the blade.
Yep, he takes it with him to duke it out on Istvaan against Ferrus. The Laeran Blade only gets used when Ferrus disarms Fulgrim.
KorPhaeron77 wrote: Personally I hate the fallen Emperor's Children more than any other Legion because no other Legion fell so far, so fast and for such selfish reasons. They are a total perversion of the Legiones Astartes, even the other Traitors could see that. I think I especially hated them because I liked their loyalist characters so much, Vespasian, Tarvitz, Solomon and Rylanor were all the embodiement of what the EC's stood for before arrogance and self aggrandisement started poisoning their values. I hate Fulgrim the most of all the traitor Primarchs because he was so pathetic that despite being surrounded by some of the greatest Space Marine Commanders, he chose to listen to Self loving incompetants like Eidolon and Sycophants like Marius, just because they told him what he wanted to hear. He was such a petulant child, and the only redeeming thing about him is seemingly retconned in the next few stories he is in (I won't spoil by saying what I mean)
Although I am not greatly fond of his and their portrayal in Fulgrim, they are my favourite Legion and Slaanesh my God of choice. Slaanesh is about utter abandonment of all else other than self indulgence, It is the total corruption and destruction of the soul, for you only to be left a screaming, empty husk, wanting to feel something. How cool is that
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/02/25 15:20:43
I just think it was weird how Eidolon died in an obscure short story in such a quick and uneventful way. I didn't believe it and had to reread a couple times to make sure what I read just happened, I wasn't expecting it at all.
Argel Tal and Cyrene: Still a better love story than Twilight
I just think it was weird how Eidolon died in an obscure short story in such a quick and uneventful way. I didn't believe it and had to reread a couple times to make sure what I read just happened, I wasn't expecting it at all.
Read Angel Exterminatus, it should clear some things up regarding Eidolon.
Go forth and amplify, here come the NOISE MARINES!
Sons of Cacophony: Construction Finished, Forever Unpainted
I just think it was weird how Eidolon died in an obscure short story in such a quick and uneventful way. I didn't believe it and had to reread a couple times to make sure what I read just happened, I wasn't expecting it at all.
Read Angel Exterminatus, it should clear some things up regarding Eidolon.
I thought "A reflection crack'd" was such a pointless story.
Spoiler:
First of all the death of Eidolon was such a gimmick because he is back in literally the next book and it didn't impact the story whatsoever. Secondly I absolutely hated the revelation regarding Fulgrim. I felt that it totally ruined the story arch from the book "Fulgrim" and find it dumb that "ah I was possessed, for a month...it was all a trick, I'm back now but I will soon become a Daemon anyway mwhahaha." The one redeeming thing about Fulgrim and they took it away. I think the only reason McNeil retconned it was because he couldn't think of a way to write from a Daemon's perspective and make it interesting so he just used his classic, "Because....magic"
Don't get me wrong, I liked Angel Exterminatus but only because it was mostly from Perturabo's point of view. Non of the EC's are relatable anymore. The only one who has retained his personality is Fabius and I always hated Fabius, the rest are all just cartoonish junkies with no goals or ambitions.
I just think it was weird how Eidolon died in an obscure short story in such a quick and uneventful way. I didn't believe it and had to reread a couple times to make sure what I read just happened, I wasn't expecting it at all.
Read Angel Exterminatus, it should clear some things up regarding Eidolon.
I thought "A reflection crack'd" was such a pointless story.
Spoiler:
First of all the death of Eidolon was such a gimmick because he is back in literally the next book and it didn't impact the story whatsoever. Secondly I absolutely hated the revelation regarding Fulgrim. I felt that it totally ruined the story arch from the book "Fulgrim" and find it dumb that "ah I was possessed, for a month...it was all a trick, I'm back now but I will soon become a Daemon anyway mwhahaha." The one redeeming thing about Fulgrim and they took it away. I think the only reason McNeil retconned it was because he couldn't think of a way to write from a Daemon's perspective and make it interesting so he just used his classic, "Because....magic"
Don't get me wrong, I liked Angel Exterminatus but only because it was mostly from Perturabo's point of view. Non of the EC's are relatable anymore. The only one who has retained his personality is Fabius and I always hated Fabius, the rest are all just cartoonish junkies with no goals or ambitions.
I feel the same exact way.
Spoiler:
It was such a major letdown to see that he actually wasn't controlled by a daemon because I though that was the most interesting story arc and twist in the whole HH series thus far. I guess I'll have to read Anel Exterminatus because I keep hearing there is a lot of lore in that book. Eidolon just coming back is beyond stupid though...
Argel Tal and Cyrene: Still a better love story than Twilight
IIRC, Eidolon was canonically still around after the Heresy, so they kinda had to bring him back. Well, that was the impression I got from the various wiki articles which hilariously had to put it off as "a rumour he's still alive" or a canon contradiction until BL finally brought him back to life.
herpguy wrote: I guess I'll have to read Angel Exterminatus because I keep hearing there is a lot of lore in that book. Eidolon just coming back is beyond stupid though...
A good book, but it is the reason why I can't read any stories involving the EC anymore, even though it took place from the Iron Warriors point... *shudders* Some writers capture the excess of Slaanesh a little too well for my tastes. I would honestly wonder how they all function as a Legion if I had not already heard of Fabius.
"There is a cancer eating at the Imperium. With each decade it advances deeper, leaving drained, dead worlds in its wake. This horror, this abomination, has thought and purpose that functions on an unimaginable, galactic scale and all we can do is try to stop the swarms of bioengineered monsters it unleashes upon us by instinct. We have given the horror a name to salve our fears; we call it the Tyranid race, but if is aware of us at all it must know us only as Prey."
Hive Fleet Grootslang 15000+
Servants of the Void 2000+
Fulgrim killing Ferrus was one of the best parts of the HH. Ferrus is just about the most boring and useless Primarch out of all of them in my opinion.
"Oh look at me, I have special metal arms when some weird metal dragon thing melted on them..... Oh I lost my head by not putting up much of a fight unlike my brothers who have bags of awesome nearly every time they fight"
IIRC, Eidolon was canonically still around after the Heresy, so they kinda had to bring him back. Well, that was the impression I got from the various wiki articles which hilariously had to put it off as "a rumour he's still alive" or a canon contradiction until BL finally brought him back to life.
Spoiler:
Yeah i believe Eidolon is mentioned to be one of Abbadon's inner circle, possibly in a piece from the Black Crusade codex. There is an extract where an assassin is being given kill orders for the main players in the 13th crusade, I am sure he was one of them. It was just dumb that they killed him off for some obvious shock value, but if you only read the full length novels then you would barely notice that he was dead for all of five minutes.
I've become a little wary of Macneil recently, I like Angel Exterminatus but his novels seem to constantly derail the timeline, like Outcast dead.
How are the EC's even functioning as a Legion now anyway, they were a small Legion to start with, lost nearly a third of their number during the purge at Istvaan III, had to have taken at least noticeable casualties at Istvaan V. Then they threw away tons of lives in the conclusion of Angel Exterminatus. They have virtually no real Legion Command anymore. They have Fabius introducing often unstable modifications to their geneseed. From the sounds of it they don't really have a functional Apothecarion anymore as they are all too selfish to actually help one another or care about the Legion. I'm genuinely surprised any even exist in 40k.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/02/27 10:31:42
First of all the death of Eidolon was such a gimmick because he is back in literally the next book and it didn't impact the story whatsoever. Secondly I absolutely hated the revelation regarding Fulgrim. I felt that it totally ruined the story arch from the book "Fulgrim" and find it dumb that "ah I was possessed, for a month...it was all a trick, I'm back now but I will soon become a Daemon anyway mwhahaha." The one redeeming thing about Fulgrim and they took it away. I think the only reason McNeil retconned it was because he couldn't think of a way to write from a Daemon's perspective and make it interesting so he just used his classic, "Because....magic"
Spoiler:
Eidolon was kinda needed for Fulgrims ascension to work, but I wasn't so hot on the idea of performing a ritual to become a Daemon Prince. I though you had to work hard and do many deeds to get that far. But meh, I guess it kinda works. After all, it was the way Perturabo became a Daemon Prince after sacrificing the Fists Geneseed after the Iron Cage, but he had to do a lot more than admire art and be a bit flamboyant. Perhaps ascended after the atrocities he committed during the Siege.
In my opinion the whole talking sword / Dorian Gray thing ruined it for me. What I liked about the Emperors Children in the first place was their fall, especially Fulgrims. Fulgrim who strived to achieve perfection in all that he did, to be as much like his father, the Emperor, as possible. All for him to turn his back on everything that he and his Children worked towards, to become something so far removed from the principles that they once held to. To have it no longer placed fully on his shoulders cheapens and lessens the dramatic change in him for me. Honestly the talking sword wasn't required, Horus was enough. I glad that we have Fulgrim back and that he is acting on his own steam, having a Daemon do it all seemed silly.
IIRC, Eidolon was canonically still around after the Heresy, so they kinda had to bring him back. Well, that was the impression I got from the various wiki articles which hilariously had to put it off as "a rumour he's still alive" or a canon contradiction until BL finally brought him back to life.
Spoiler:
Yeah i believe Eidolon is mentioned to be one of Abbadon's inner circle, possibly in a piece from the Black Crusade codex. There is an extract where an assassin is being given kill orders for the main players in the 13th crusade, I am sure he was one of them. It was just dumb that they killed him off for some obvious shock value, but if you only read the full length novels then you would barely notice that he was dead for all of five minutes.
He's not one of the four that you are thinking of Kor, that's Devram Korda, Ygethmor the Deceiver, Skyrak Slaughterborn and Urkrathos but the Emperors Children IA Article says:
Unsubstantiated rumours claim that Eidolon is responsible for hundreds, if not thousands, of gruesome raids on Imperial worlds in the past ten thousand years, and have suggested he may have served as lieutenant to Abaddon the Despoiler, consort to Queen Sylelle and champion of the Daemon Prince N'Kari. No Inquisitor has yet succeeded in locating the source of these rumours, but. without undisputable evidence, the Inquisition will not declare Eidolon dead.
KorPhaeron77 wrote: I've become a little wary of Macneil recently, I like Angel Exterminatus but his novels seem to constantly derail the timeline, like Outcast dead.
An explanation for this has been pigeon holed into the audio drama Wolf Hunt, it kinda makes even less sense now though.
Spoiler:
the message was received 2 years before the events of The Outcast Dead
KorPhaeron77 wrote: How are the EC's even functioning as a Legion now anyway, they were a small Legion to start with, lost nearly a third of their number during the purge at Istvaan III, had to have taken at least noticeable casualties at Istvaan V. Then they threw away tons of lives in the conclusion of Angel Exterminatus. They have virtually no real Legion Command anymore. They have Fabius introducing often unstable modifications to their geneseed. From the sounds of it they don't really have a functional Apothecarion anymore as they are all too selfish to actually help one another or care about the Legion. I'm genuinely surprised any even exist in 40k.
I think I like what he's done with the Emperors Children in the way of how far they have fallen, the potions and the concoctions, but there are certain things I don't like. What you mention are some of the things.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/02/27 12:21:00
Ah, I'm not sure where I read it then, but I definitely saw another snippet of info in a codex that mentioned Eidolon. Going to eat at my brain now.
Spoiler:
You hit the nail on the head with the Daemon thing though. Yet another MaNeilism I don't like, two instances of a magic sword turning Primarchs. But I think once he wrote in the Daemon thing, he should have stuck with it, not just changed his mind and ruined the ending of a decent novel. Like I said earlier, I think the problem is that the whole Fulgrim is possessed, is a cool ending...emphasis on "ending." If Fulgrim never showed up again it could have worked, but it was obviously really difficult to write a novel which is about the interactions between two very different brothers, if one of them is actually just a daemon that doesn't even care about mortal concerns anymore. That's my opinion of why Graham MacNeil retconned it.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/02/27 11:53:12
The Chosen of Abaddon are named in the 3.5 Chaos Codex. He might be mentioned in that as well, somewhere.
I don't think it would have worked as well having a Daemon be responsible for the Emperors Childrens actions, it's what you expect something already evil to do. Having a character that attempted to personify the very ideals of the Imperium commit them in the name of new master makes them more shocking.
I don't disagree, I just think it was stupid to introduce the daemon and then back out of the idea in the very next story he's in. Or like maybe if Reflection Crack'd had focussed on Fulgrim's internal struggle and not his Captains suspicions, then it could have been good. As it was, I hated that story.
