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 SRSFACE wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Initiative is too tied to close combat.

Isn't that the entire point?

Yes, but it's a bad thing. Initiative doesn't (accurately) represent general reaction times, it represents how fast you can swing a sword. Shooting armies that spend their whole military careers training their shooting skills should be great at shooting in all circumstances, and shouldn't use their melee stats just because they're shooting at a unit that will swing swords at them in the near future.

(Yes, this means that using initiative for things like blind tests is stupid.)

Initiative is how fast you think or react. Not how fast you swing a sword at all.

That stat is strength.

I was used for detection of hidden game elements in the past too.

 Daba wrote:
Initiative is how fast you think or react. Not how fast you swing a sword at all.

That stat is strength.

I was used for detection of hidden game elements in the past too.

I thought that 'how fast you swing' is attack

I would be ok going back to 2nd edition style overwatch - You declare that a unit is going into Overwatch during your shooting phase, but you don't shoot that turn. You get to fire when you are being charged, but at full BS. I always enjoyed that aspect.

Get rid of the idea of this affecting flyers and I am fine with it. Heldrakes are over powered enough as it is.

 Scipio Africanus wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Stupid rule is stupid.

Overwatch being Snap Shots is silly in the first place. The Snap Shot rule is basically saying "you don't aim, but you MIGHT get lucky as you squeeze the trigger and pray!"

With your addendum, you're saying "You might get lucky! And then you might aim!"

It's like American shooting. "Ready, Fire, Aim!".

And yet they still managed to beat the British empire. We won't even consider the boer war, I suppose?

I think this rule would be useful to limit armies that h be unfairly good overwatch (tau).

If you wanted, the to hit of a 6 could be rolled after the roll to hit. It would have the same statistical impact, without hurting your precious feelings that we need to maintain reality in a game where tanks have sponsons.

Actually it was perhaps the only war in history in which the French won.

As an Englishman I'm happy in the knowledge that the USFUCKINGA wouldn't exist in its current form without help from the French.

America started off on the wrong foot and somehow it's got worse!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh with regards to the overwatch thing. It's not broke, it's fine as it is.

Shingen wrote:

 Scipio Africanus wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Stupid rule is stupid.

Overwatch being Snap Shots is silly in the first place. The Snap Shot rule is basically saying "you don't aim, but you MIGHT get lucky as you squeeze the trigger and pray!"

With your addendum, you're saying "You might get lucky! And then you might aim!"

It's like American shooting. "Ready, Fire, Aim!".

And yet they still managed to beat the British empire. We won't even consider the boer war, I suppose?

I think this rule would be useful to limit armies that h be unfairly good overwatch (tau).

If you wanted, the to hit of a 6 could be rolled after the roll to hit. It would have the same statistical impact, without hurting your precious feelings that we need to maintain reality in a game where tanks have sponsons.

Actually it was perhaps the only war in history in which the French won.

As an Englishman I'm happy in the knowledge that the USFUCKINGA wouldn't exist in its current form without help from the French.

America started off on the wrong foot and somehow it's got worse!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh with regards to the overwatch thing. It's not broke, it's fine as it is.

*Sigh*

http://www.militaryfactory.com/battles/french_military_victories.asp

 nimak83 wrote:
I would be ok going back to 2nd edition style overwatch - You declare that a unit is going into Overwatch during your shooting phase, but you don't shoot that turn. You get to fire when you are being charged, but at full BS. I always enjoyed that aspect.

I concur, Overwatch should be a choice. It's also pretty simple to do, too:

If a unit doesn't run or shoot in it's own turn, it can go into Overwatch. It can then fire on any unit attempting to charge it in the enemy turn, at full BS and with the Ignores Cover rule. If multiple units attempt to charge it at once, it gains Split Fire too. Simple.

That makes Overwatch a tactical trade-off to counter melee units that try to advance in cover, rather than just a automatic mechanic to get lucky bonus hits.

 xttz wrote:

 nimak83 wrote:
I would be ok going back to 2nd edition style overwatch - You declare that a unit is going into Overwatch during your shooting phase, but you don't shoot that turn. You get to fire when you are being charged, but at full BS. I always enjoyed that aspect.

I concur, Overwatch should be a choice. It's also pretty simple to do, too:

If a unit doesn't run or shoot in it's own turn, it can go into Overwatch. It can then fire on any unit attempting to charge it in the enemy turn, at full BS and with the Ignores Cover rule. If multiple units attempt to charge it at once, it gains Split Fire too. Simple.

That makes Overwatch a tactical trade-off to counter melee units that try to advance in cover, rather than just a automatic mechanic to get lucky bonus hits.

Close, but the advantage is still way to the shooter. I charge, you overwatch, wipe out half the unit, I fail the charge, you get to shoot me up some more next turn. Random charge distance makes overwatch a problem, not the ability itself. The guy who runs my FLGS came up with a friendly rule that says a charging unit may charge 6", but if you want more, you can roll a D3 to get up to three extra inches. That way overwatch can be left the way that it is, and charging becomes a viable option again...

So you made charge ranges in 6+d3 rather then 2d6.

Sure, less maximum range, but easy as hell charges to begin with, easier then 5th edition!

I fail to see why people keep crying on the 2d6 thing when 5th edition was flat 6, not only on average less, but overly predictable that I just had to stand 12.1inch away and you could NEVER charge (unless you good something that makes you faster, let jump packs), and yet assault armies were fertile.

You know what assault need? CODCIES.
Once the assault army codcies will drop, you will see how it works out.
Chaos might have fumbled a bit, but nids can get it done, and so does white scars and demons.

As for tau overwatch being OTT due to supporting fire, sure having 24 fire warriors and 3 broadsides overwatching you be troublesome, but horde armies can have such numbers in a single squad as it is!
Nids? 30 per squad possible. orks? same, guard platoons? three-digit is within the realm of possibility.

The markerlights? sure, my 6 pathfinders will net, on average, 1 marking, granting a single shooting squad +1 to BS. and its not like tau squads are huge. the reason the overwatch is "nasty" is because multiple squads participate, but only 1 gains from the marker.
If he somehow have 2 squads of pathfinders overwatching, you are doing something wrong, by the time you GET to assault (turn 2 or 3), the tau player should feel lucky if there is a single surviving pathfinder.

-I think it's slowed that some of the best shooters in the universe can't shoot any better than an ork while snap shotting, even when firing at, say, a SUPER HEAVY FLYER.
And awkwardly enough, orks make amazing snapshotters since their guns are already designed and costed in line with a low BS.

To that end, I've said since the start of 6e that snapshots should be BS -2. Thus giving the eldars, marines, and crons a bit better accuracy, as well as making good IC's overwatch actually matter some.

-At the same time, over watching should cost you something action-wise. Not being able to shoot in the next turn a la interceptor seems reasonable.

Also on Tau and overwatch-decoys. I've played them a fair number of times for and against. It's reasonably easy to let ONE unit get close and use your firepower to not let another unit anywhere near the first one. Voila, no overwatch-shield for them.

-I'm always amused by people who believe that they are in any way relevant to which country did what in which war. Were some of you guys involved in those battles in past lives, or do we just have several 300 year olds in the thread?

If anything, I like the way Zone Mortalis handles overwatch, where the squad must pass majority initiative, and then can fire overwatch as snap shots.

Shingen wrote:

Actually it was perhaps the only war in history in which the French won.

As an Englishman I'm happy in the knowledge that the USFUCKINGA wouldn't exist in its current form without help from the French.

America started off on the wrong foot and somehow it's got worse!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh with regards to the overwatch thing. It's not broke, it's fine as it is.

Norman says what?

Also, Norman Forgets Napoleon's Campaigns in Spain, Italy and Arabia.

niv-mizzet wrote:
To that end, I've said since the start of 6e that snapshots should be BS -2. Thus giving the eldars, marines, and crons a bit better accuracy, as well as making good IC's overwatch actually matter some.

iGuy91 wrote:If anything, I like the way Zone Mortalis handles overwatch, where the squad must pass majority initiative, and then can fire overwatch as snap shots.

Perhaps a combination of these two factors - first pass a Initiative Test and then perform Snap Shooting at -2 (capping at 1BS) BS. Seems pretty legit.

Represents the squad first reacting to, then shooting at, the approaching enemy. If you can't react in time you don't get to shoot, and sometimes even with quick reactions, you may shoot poorly. notbad.jpg

Welcome the the wonderful world of 1970s Napoleonic rules, used for high tec battles in space.

Overwatch is another additional rule to fill the gaps that 'WHFB in space' game mechanics and resolution methods can not cope with.

What is the current game play concept of 40k?

Is it manouvering to get the best close combat match up, with ranged attacks used purely in a supporting role.
Or
Is it an equal balance of Mobility to seize objectives Fire power to control enemy movement , and Assault to contest objectives.

Or something else entirely?

niv-mizzet wrote:
-I think it's slowed that some of the best shooters in the universe can't shoot any better than an ork while snap shotting, even when firing at, say, a SUPER HEAVY FLYER.
And awkwardly enough, orks make amazing snapshotters since their guns are already designed and costed in line with a low BS.

To that end, I've said since the start of 6e that snapshots should be BS -2. Thus giving the eldars, marines, and crons a bit better accuracy, as well as making good IC's overwatch actually matter some.

-At the same time, over watching should cost you something action-wise. Not being able to shoot in the next turn a la interceptor seems reasonable.

Also on Tau and overwatch-decoys. I've played them a fair number of times for and against. It's reasonably easy to let ONE unit get close and use your firepower to not let another unit anywhere near the first one. Voila, no overwatch-shield for them.

-I'm always amused by people who believe that they are in any way relevant to which country did what in which war. Were some of you guys involved in those battles in past lives, or do we just have several 300 year olds in the thread?

In regards to the -2, that would make it so Orks (And probably some Tyranids even) couldn't snapshot at all. The reason Orks thrive on snap shots, as rare as it we get them, is simply due to our Dakka count. Our basic guns are 2 shots each, which is great for it...but we still need 6 to hit, and Mork knows what to actually WOUND. And with only Tyrnaids having equally gakky saves most of the time, other races can shrug off a vast majority of the hits they get.

Thread necromancy, ahoy!

Jefffar wrote:
I've always thought that Overwatch should be done at full BS . . . but require a successful leadership test first - to see if they hold their nerve long enough to aim and shoot.

...and thus make it impossible for Assault armies to kill anything. Wohoo!

It should be initiative test, not Ld if that was the case.

This might be a little toooo simple.

But if tau are the problem. How about a tau specific solution: make it "models" within 6" can support fire instead of whole units.

 nimak83 wrote:
I would be ok going back to 2nd edition style overwatch - You declare that a unit is going into Overwatch during your shooting phase, but you don't shoot that turn. You get to fire when you are being charged, but at full BS. I always enjoyed that aspect.

This is exactly how I think Overwatch should work, there is then some tactical thought into overwatch then. I would make 1 minor tweak though and that is you declare over watch in the movement phase, so it plays something like movement phase declare overwatch don't move don't fire but can fire at full BS if charged.

180pts of ork shoota boyz (30) shooting overwatch gives 10 st4 hits,182pts of tactical marines (13) gives 4 overwatch hits. Basic Ork troops are 2.5 times more effective than basic SM troops at overwatch point for point due to the overwatch mechanic.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Thats a problem.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Scipio Africanus wrote:

Shingen wrote:

Actually it was perhaps the only war in history in which the French won.

As an Englishman I'm happy in the knowledge that the USFUCKINGA wouldn't exist in its current form without help from the French.

America started off on the wrong foot and somehow it's got worse!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh with regards to the overwatch thing. It's not broke, it's fine as it is.

Norman says what?

Also, Norman Forgets Napoleon's Campaigns in Spain, Italy and Arabia. Plus Prussia, and Austria

Added a bit.
And the hundred years war... and the first crusade (mostly french and normans), and 1066 ironically enough since he's proud to be english :-p.