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been thinking about this, and ive noticed that alot of the new 40k kits are stuff that existed way back in epic, and is now getting new 40k size kits. i mean, the imperial baneblades, russ, deathstrike missile, even the sm hunter, and now knights. even the rules are starting to sort of mirror a sense of how epic was played. so...good or bad? agree or not?

Terrible IMO, because 40k is NOT Epic, and some things (Titans) have no place in a 40k game. But it sells more models. They've slowly been raising the size of 40k armies for years now, so this is the logical (de)evolution of the game.

Doesnt bother me. I just play the game how I please with like mided people so it doesnt matter what GW does in the end haha. I do like the options being there though.

So good.

It is good. It is a natural evolution. The longer a game is around, the larger player's armies will be, since most people keep expanding their collections. And since people like to be able use all their stuff in a game, games naturally grow larger over time.
I think this is good because large, epic games are awesome and it does not have to be to the detriment of smaller games, as Kill Team shows us. Kill Team is also awesome.

GW wants to to buy a pinch of this:



And a dash of this:


and a smattering of this:


Now you can play 40K in a new and innovative way! New, easy to move units! Bigger-than-Apocolypse games!

Yeah, this isn't exactly a secret. The mill of "Epic -> Forgeworld -> 40k" has been grinding on for awhile now.

Yes. And why not? There's a lot of untapped potential in GW's own past, and helps making the 40k universe coherent over the years.

And before screaming "boooooo! Titans!", perhaps it should be noted that not every Epic-inspired release has been a titan, a superheavy or a game-breaking OP unit. The Haruspex, Exocrine and Space Marine Hunter tanks all have roots in Epic.

Yeah, the problem is the scale of the game keeps increasing, yet the rules still remain rooted in a skirmish level game. I've often thought that a reboot of 40K would benefit from treating units as a single model (with, say, 10 wounds), rather than a bunch of 10 models that all just happen to shoot together, but die separately.

 Tannhauser42 wrote:
Yeah, the problem is the scale of the game keeps increasing, yet the rules still remain rooted in a skirmish level game. I've often that a reboot of 40K would benefit from treating units as a single model (with, say, 10 wounds), rather than a bunch of 10 models that all just happen to shoot together, but die separately.

At the end of the day all you need is 2 troops and 1 HQ. I would say the game is only increasing in scale because people choose to use that option. It can still be played in a small skirmish style battle. So its not really increasing in scale, it just has the option to do so.

And before screaming "boooooo! Titans!", perhaps it should be noted that not every Epic-inspired release has been a titan, a superheavy or a game-breaking OP unit. The Haruspex, Exocrine and Space Marine Hunter tanks all have roots in Epic.

But, but....the Haruspex and Exocrines could be so much better if there was a Dominatrix next to them!

Tannhauser42 wrote:Yeah, the problem is the scale of the game keeps increasing, yet the rules still remain rooted in a skirmish level game. I've often that a reboot of 40K would benefit from treating units as a single model (with, say, 10 wounds), rather than a bunch of 10 models that all just happen to shoot together, but die separately.

They did, it was called 5th edition.

Woo, we can look forward to them orphaning and then abandoning the game in a few years then.

Deathstrike missiles are akin to ICBMs and don't belong on a 28mm table. Nor does anything larger than a mortar. It can all be represented better by an off-table artillery support mechanism like the game used to have (back in the 2nd ed days).

If you want stupidly huge war machines with even bigger guns, play epic. The rules are better. The models are an even bigger PITA to paint, though.

No, 40k is not turning in to Epic... Epic was good... they need to bring Epic back.

Anyway, the embiggening of everything in 40k just makes for a worse game but with cooler models. I like the Imperial Knight, I don't like the gameplay associated with it. I like the Wraithknight, Riptide, I like most of the flyers... I just don't think they should exist in a skirmish game, and that's what 40k is, a (slightly large) skirmish game.

I'd rather just play Epic if we want to play with Titans and such.

Hell, even in Epic flyers used to just wizz across the battle from one side to the other in a single turn, now we have a battlefield that is a 5th the size with fighters and such trying to manoeuvre their way around.

 Tannhauser42 wrote:
...the scale of the game keeps increasing...

I can't wait until they release a 28mm Ramilies Star Fort, I'll need to get one to counter the 28mm Cairn Tomb Ship that my opponent has.

Just wait until they run out of Epic units and have to resort to Battlefleet Gothic. Models so big, you can live in them!

.... it will be a side-board game, played on the TV tray table you otherwise use to hold a bowl of popcorn or chips or crisps or whatever-the-feth it is you call them wherever you happen to live.

So you've got a game of 40K going on the main table, with 1100 models per side, some an inch tall, ranging up to a trio of meter-tall Titans on each side, and then on the side-table mentioned above, you've got a space-battle game going on, which occasionally results in some sort of large blast template being thrown down on the main table, as either a lance strike hits or some bit of a destroyed vessel comes smashing into the ground from space.

 Ailaros wrote:

Tannhauser42 wrote:Yeah, the problem is the scale of the game keeps increasing, yet the rules still remain rooted in a skirmish level game. I've often that a reboot of 40K would benefit from treating units as a single model (with, say, 10 wounds), rather than a bunch of 10 models that all just happen to shoot together, but die separately.

They did, it was called 5th edition.

Actually, I believe it was called War of the Ring where GW used the concept of making a unit function as a single model.

 Swastakowey wrote:
At the end of the day all you need is 2 troops and 1 HQ. I would say the game is only increasing in scale because people choose to use that option. It can still be played in a small skirmish style battle. So its not really increasing in scale, it just has the option to do so.

If I want to play a Sci-Fi skirmish game, I will play Necromunda, Infinity, or Deadzone. 40K does not work anymore as a skirmish game, it simply does not have the depth for it, and it is long past time for GW to actually evolve the rules.

 Agent_Tremolo wrote:
Yes. And why not? There's a lot of untapped potential in GW's own past, and helps making the 40k universe coherent over the years.

And before screaming "boooooo! Titans!", perhaps it should be noted that not every Epic-inspired release has been a titan, a superheavy or a game-breaking OP unit. The Haruspex, Exocrine and Space Marine Hunter tanks all have roots in Epic.

This.

When the new Ork codex rolls around, I'd love for there to be Flakk & Gunwagons and/or some of the variant Titan Legion-era predecessors like Gobsmashas, Bonebreakas/Bonecrunchas, Braincrushas, Gutrippas etc. Even if they just give us the basic FOC choice with a stack of build options to field them in the desired flavour. They'd hardly be game breaking but would add some variety and a tad extra oomph to a list in need of an update.

i actually like it. im not a fan of the dollar increase, but thats an economical argument for another thread. as far as the actual game itself, i love that the armies keep getting bigger, with newer and better units. it allows one to keep expanding his force while remaining diverse. and i mean, if you dont want to play a huge game using titans and whatnot, just play a smaller points match, or even just scenario special rule: no super hevs. its in the first few pages of the brb....agree to the rules of the game before hand, THEN get everything set up, get your list and so on. personally i plan on creating a knights army, im also going to be developing a house rule personal codex in lue of a gw one for a proper force org, using barons lancers and crusaders to round out the slot choices and add some variety to the army.

I would like a proper epic scaled game again.

I would like a proper skirmish/pseudo skirmish/half company level game for normal 40k.

I would like an over the top, entirely separate game mode for super heavy stuff that did not mingle in any way with the base game.

I know it won't happen, but a man can wish. While we're at it, bring back BFG. All in plastic too.

Actually, I believe it was called War of the Ring where GW used the concept of making a unit function as a single model.

 Swastakowey wrote:
At the end of the day all you need is 2 troops and 1 HQ. I would say the game is only increasing in scale because people choose to use that option. It can still be played in a small skirmish style battle. So its not really increasing in scale, it just has the option to do so.

If I want to play a Sci-Fi skirmish game, I will play Necromunda, Infinity, or Deadzone. 40K does not work anymore as a skirmish game, it simply does not have the depth for it, and it is long past time for GW to actually evolve the rules.

So you want to play 40k because there are other skirmish games already? Or you want 40k to replace those games?

Anyways all im saying the game has the option to play huge battles, its not needed, its an option. So who cares if it has the option to be huge? I mean its an option so why not have it. For some reason most gamers seem to like large games so it makes sense for it to be that way.

I used to daydream about huge 40k battles as a kid.
I'm pretty happy with the state of 40k.

I wonder if the day will come when Titans will come to the official GW store, at something like £400... or 3 for £1200.

 Elgrun wrote:
I wonder if the day will come when Titans will come to the official GW store, at something like £400... or 3 for £1200.

April 7th, 2014. Seriously.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DarthSpader wrote:
been thinking about this, and ive noticed that alot of the new 40k kits are stuff that existed way back in epic, and is now getting new 40k size kits. i mean, the imperial baneblades, russ, deathstrike missile, even the sm hunter, and now knights. even the rules are starting to sort of mirror a sense of how epic was played. so...good or bad? agree or not?

Here's hoping! Can you imagine a 28mm scale CAPITOL IMPERIALIS! Truth is, you can play everything from kill team games up to 2,000, or even 3,000 point games pretty easily...

 chromedog wrote:
Woo, we can look forward to them orphaning and then abandoning the game in a few years then.

Deathstrike missiles are akin to ICBMs and don't belong on a 28mm table. Nor does anything larger than a mortar. It can all be represented better by an off-table artillery support mechanism like the game used to have (back in the 2nd ed days).

If you want stupidly huge war machines with even bigger guns, play epic. The rules are better. The models are an even bigger PITA to paint, though.

What I like the idea of is a 3-table 40k rule set. Basically, there is the main 6'x4' table, which has the objectives on it. Both players then get a 4'x4' auxiliary table. Basically, a player may deploy any number of units on their Aux table or the main table, but may only deploy models with Infiltrate or scout (or a similar special rule) on their opponents aux table. Models may deepstrike onto any table.

Then, add in rules for artillery which prevent them from shooting at anything on the same table with their main guns. Each piece gets a range measured from their controllers edge of both other tables instead. For example, something with comparatively short range (like a Griffon Mortar) might get a range value of "Main Table 24" (meaning that they could shoot up to 24" onto the main table), something with longer range (like a Basilisk) might get "Main Table Unlimited, Aux 24" (shoot anywhere on main table, up to 24" on Aux table), and a Deathstrike would get "Unlimited" (shoot anywhere not on the same table).

You could also play around with other unit types. Flyers could be limited to 45 degree turns, have their minimum movement increased, and not be allowed to return to the table the turn that they moved off of it. They could, however, enter any other table on the next turn, and could deploy normally on the Auxillary table (to guarantee a turn 2 arrival on the main table).

Maybe allow some deepstrikers (such as terminators) to deepstrike between tables. Also, integrate new rules that would allow transit between tables (Eldar/Dark Eldar Webway portals, Tyranid Hive Tunnels, etc.).

Space-intensive? Yes. Fun? I'd expect so.

I like the option, but dislike the tournament player concept that all options must be explored for the sake of winning. If 40k had several game modes discussed in the BRB with rules modifying each type of game, rather than the "one size fits all" way the rules are currently worded, I'd be much more okay with it.

Personally I enjoy 1500 point games with armies that look like they might as well have been out of 4th edition. Sometimes the newest, biggest, killiest, super OP thing on the table isn't actually that fun to play with or against. I'm just glad I have enough like-minded people that agree it's best to discuss the gameplay experience we want a week in advance so if we want to go utilize super HXC super deathmode units against each other, we can, or if we want to stick with smaller skirmish games, we can.

I'd rather have the option to want to play with the bigger models on a larger scale and not need it than to want to play bigger games with bigger models and it not be there.

That said though I think there's always going to be that person who brings all the big toys with a ridiculous list , crushes people and says well don't blame me I'm just playing within the rules I'm given. Options are great but there's always going to be someone who's there to abuse them.

All in all I'm excited for the potential of escalating campaigns for me and my group in the next couple weeks.

 Swastakowey wrote:

 Tannhauser42 wrote:
Yeah, the problem is the scale of the game keeps increasing, yet the rules still remain rooted in a skirmish level game. I've often that a reboot of 40K would benefit from treating units as a single model (with, say, 10 wounds), rather than a bunch of 10 models that all just happen to shoot together, but die separately.

At the end of the day all you need is 2 troops and 1 HQ. I would say the game is only increasing in scale because people choose to use that option. It can still be played in a small skirmish style battle. So its not really increasing in scale, it just has the option to do so.

That's true, but people can only choose the option because it exists.

That was fine when Apocalypse was a well defined optional extra, but the Escalation rules bring Epic into normal 40K.

This is a bad thing because as Tannhauser42 said, 40K is a skirmish level game and can't handle Epic size battles. It's worse because if people want to play Epic, it exists already.

I doubt many people would be playing w40k , if the entry games were 2000+pts . Same with many tables games. We have 3 in our store , but only two are joined and one is build for warmachine or infinity . if it would require three 4x6 tables to play a normal game , w40k would just die . Not to mention the time it takes the play the game . 1999 point games already cross the 1 hour mark , if one of the players has a swarm army.

 DarthSpader wrote:
been thinking about this, and ive noticed that alot of the new 40k kits are stuff that existed way back in epic, and is now getting new 40k size kits. i mean, the imperial baneblades, russ, deathstrike missile, even the sm hunter, and now knights. even the rules are starting to sort of mirror a sense of how epic was played. so...good or bad? agree or not?

It's not that they're trying to turn 40k into Epic, so much as they have zero creativity left in the design department. It seems GW are only capable of throwing out 2 kinds of model these days:

1) Generic army equivalent of a unit every other race gets, such as a flyer or huge walker.
2) Epic units from 20 years ago re-imagined in 28mm scale.

Don't get me wrong, the design for most of these kits is really good, and you get tons of options these days. It's just a pity the originality has dried up. Gone are the days where you'd see entirely new unit concepts out of nowhere. Even Forge world, who would throw out some of the craziest ideas previously, are stuck in a cycle of releasing marine armour variant #324 each week. The AdMech range seems to be the last vestiges of creativity trickling out of GW.