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It amazes me how people still confuse own-sex and own-race bias for sexism or racism.

Nerdy white men write most of the fluff and create most of these universes. If black females were writing a story, the protagonists would probably be black females. NOBODY would call that racist. Nobody says Lorraine Hansberry that A Raisin in the Sun is a racist play because it contains all black characters, and nobody says that Oscar Wilde is heterophobic because his plays overresppresent gay characters or consistently present heterosexual male characters as secretly gay or loathsome oafs.

Yet, people get up in arms when its straight white guys writing about straight white guys.

Its called own-sex and own-race bias people. It has nothibg to do with racism or sexism. At least not anymore than the works of black, female, Mexican, or any other authors.

some parting thoughts:

Chinua achebe
Oscar Wilde
Every Russian author ever
Lorraine Hansberry
Jane Austen

Weird how they all write about what they know within their slice of the world! But ive never heard ANYBODY call these revered authors anything but brilliant.

Vord, that's bs. We are not talking about a single author here, we are talking about a entire company, it's quite different. Furthermore, we are not even talking about omission here, we are talking about quite specific and intentional exclusion.

 Crimson wrote:
Vord, that's bs. We are not talking about a single author here, we are talking about a entire company, it's quite different. Furthermore, we are not even talking about omission here, we are talking about quite specific and intentional exclusion.

Honestly to claim that you'd need to prove that it's intentional and no one has ever stepped forward and claimed that. And honestly as much as we want to throw an entire company under the bus like that around here, there are only a handful of people who are writing the codexes/rulebooks that most of the fluff comes from. What the BL authors do aside (and considering the amount of freedom they had in the past it's probably safe to say that the amount of that you can call true canon is suspect), there isn't a lot that limits women in the fluff (at least for the Imperium. The big things I recall is that they can't be Space Marines, the Orks are all Asexual, and Nids seem to be Asexual or female only, everything else is free game). As for models, the Imperial factions are lacking in female models, yes but frankly they're the only faction that would need to actually change things to include some (Necrons all share a fairly standardized body template so until we get some female Overlords or Crypteks we don't really need female Cron models...and even then it'd primarily be a change to the hip/shoulder ratio at most to set them apart as female...assuming they follow human secondary sexual characteristics that is).

So really the arguement shouldn't be aimed at the entire company for the entirety of the game, it should be aimed at sculptors for the lack of more female models in the Imperium.

And before people start throwing race into it all, from someone I've talked to who used to work on the 'eavy Metal team the reason they're all white is because they don't want to be accused of misrepresenting races, or failing to include one or another. Basically they're trying to avoid accusations of racism against specific groups by just not including them. I'm not claiming that it's a great solution, but I kind of understand where they're coming from. No one can claim you painted a caricature of a specific ethnicity and call you racist if you just don't paint them after all (apparently this is what prompted the change to the Salamanders as well).

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Debatable. We only know through rumors that there were issues, we don't know what kind or to what extent.

Though said rumours are come from talks with two prominent GW employees at public events. More credible than most rumours.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
but there is a strong chance that people on the Dev team were against such a drastic shift in their visual style.

That's the impression I get from the Jes Goodwin interview. Sounds like they're focused on going for certain look with the models.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
I wonder if the current delay is more from them trying to expand the army. That's just an alternate possibility for what is delaying a full release for them this edition.

I remember you also having an interesting theory that they're waiting until a the best time to make such a release, factoring in money and other releases. Whatever the case, yeah, they could be other factors in play.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Honestly to claim that you'd need to prove that it's intentional and no one has ever stepped forward and claimed that.

I certainly agree tht it may've been somehow unitentional, but I still say it's a valid criticism. A strength of 40K is that, to varying extents, one can make up their own fluff and characters, and this jut seems like a needless limitation upon that.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Honestly to claim that you'd need to prove that it's intentional and no one has ever stepped forward and claimed that. And honestly as much as we want to throw an entire company under the bus like that around here, there are only a handful of people who are writing the codexes/rulebooks that most of the fluff comes from. What the BL authors do aside (and considering the amount of freedom they had in the past it's probably safe to say that the amount of that you can call true canon is suspect), there isn't a lot that limits women in the fluff (at least for the Imperium. The big things I recall is that they can't be Space Marines, the Orks are all Asexual, and Nids seem to be Asexual or female only, everything else is free game). As for models, the Imperial factions are lacking in female models, yes but frankly they're the only faction that would need to actually change things to include some (Necrons all share a fairly standardized body template so until we get some female Overlords or Crypteks we don't really need female Cron models...and even then it'd primarily be a change to the hip/shoulder ratio at most to set them apart as female...assuming they follow human secondary sexual characteristics that is).

I was talking about the Knights. It is specifically stated that they're men. So no free game. And unless the writer fell on his keyboard (several times) and accidentally typed that, it is intentional.

So really the arguement shouldn't be aimed at the entire company for the entirety of the game, it should be aimed at sculptors for the lack of more female models in the Imperium.

I'm pretty sure that the sculptors sculpt what the're told to. And of couse, with the Knights the sculpt obviously is not an issue.

And before people start throwing race into it all, from someone I've talked to who used to work on the 'eavy Metal team the reason they're all white is because they don't want to be accused of misrepresenting races, or failing to include one or another. Basically they're trying to avoid accusations of racism against specific groups by just not including them. I'm not claiming that it's a great solution, but I kind of understand where they're coming from. No one can claim you painted a caricature of a specific ethnicity and call you racist if you just don't paint them after all (apparently this is what prompted the change to the Salamanders as well).

That's just insane.

 Troike wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Debatable. We only know through rumors that there were issues, we don't know what kind or to what extent.

Though said rumours are come from talks with two prominent GW employees at public events. More credible than most rumours.

Very true. I wasn't trying to discount the information, just point out that it was a thing that happened in the past that kept them from doing it, and it may not be holding them back now. For all we know they're now working on expanding the core line further so it isn't like the Grey Knights release where 3 boxes covers 80% of the army choices.

 Troike wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
but there is a strong chance that people on the Dev team were against such a drastic shift in their visual style.

That's the impression I get from the Jes Goodwin interview. Sounds like they're focused on going for certain look with the models.

It's a distinct silhouette (something that's important in character design) and I can understand why they'd want to keep it. The only other faction who really dresses even close to the way the Sisters do is the Mechanicus, but even they have a different look and feel to them.

 Troike wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
I wonder if the current delay is more from them trying to expand the army. That's just an alternate possibility for what is delaying a full release for them this edition.

I remember you also having an interesting theory that they're waiting until a the best time to make such a release, factoring in money and other releases. Whatever the case, yeah, they could be other factors in play.

Yup. I still support it. After the new fiscal year starts, and likely paired with a sure seller codex, like a Marine codex, is the most likely setup for when Sisters will get a release. So late this year, or late next year is most likely (assuming this rate of releases continues). And after seeing what GW did recently with a massive shift from metal to plastic it'll likely be a two month release as well.

 Troike wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Honestly to claim that you'd need to prove that it's intentional and no one has ever stepped forward and claimed that.

I certainly agree tht it may've been somehow unitentional, but I still say it's a valid criticism. A strength of 40K is that, to varying extents, one can make up their own fluff and characters, and this jut seems like a needless limitation upon that.

I won't argue that it might be unintentional, but that is a different beast from intentionally being sexist or racist which is what was being claimed.


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 Crimson wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Honestly to claim that you'd need to prove that it's intentional and no one has ever stepped forward and claimed that. And honestly as much as we want to throw an entire company under the bus like that around here, there are only a handful of people who are writing the codexes/rulebooks that most of the fluff comes from. What the BL authors do aside (and considering the amount of freedom they had in the past it's probably safe to say that the amount of that you can call true canon is suspect), there isn't a lot that limits women in the fluff (at least for the Imperium. The big things I recall is that they can't be Space Marines, the Orks are all Asexual, and Nids seem to be Asexual or female only, everything else is free game). As for models, the Imperial factions are lacking in female models, yes but frankly they're the only faction that would need to actually change things to include some (Necrons all share a fairly standardized body template so until we get some female Overlords or Crypteks we don't really need female Cron models...and even then it'd primarily be a change to the hip/shoulder ratio at most to set them apart as female...assuming they follow human secondary sexual characteristics that is).

I was talking about the Knights. It is specifically stated that they're men. So no free game.

Is that from the Knights codex, or from the BL book that was talked about earlier? Because the BL has always been all over the place.

 Crimson wrote:

So really the arguement shouldn't be aimed at the entire company for the entirety of the game, it should be aimed at sculptors for the lack of more female models in the Imperium.

I'm pretty sure that the sculptors sculpt what the're told to. And of couse, with the Knights the sculpt obviously is not an issue.

To some extent, yes they are, but at the same they have a fair amount of creative freedom too. If the sculptors aren't sculpting female models (or are being told not to sculpt them) then we don't get female models which is an issue. The entire company isn't responsible for a choice like that, just one department as stated.

 Crimson wrote:

And before people start throwing race into it all, from someone I've talked to who used to work on the 'eavy Metal team the reason they're all white is because they don't want to be accused of misrepresenting races, or failing to include one or another. Basically they're trying to avoid accusations of racism against specific groups by just not including them. I'm not claiming that it's a great solution, but I kind of understand where they're coming from. No one can claim you painted a caricature of a specific ethnicity and call you racist if you just don't paint them after all (apparently this is what prompted the change to the Salamanders as well).

That's just insane.

Insane, but considering how quick people are to jump up and yell "that's racist" these days I can't really blame them from trying to avoid anything that could trigger such cries (of course this leads to unintentional racism since they never show anyone who isn't white, but it does avoid the caricature accusations where their own work can be used against them more concretely).

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Is that from the Knights codex, or from the BL book that was talked about earlier? Because the BL has always been all over the place.

It's in the codex. They intentionally made another specifically male faction.

To some extent, yes they are, but at the same they have a fair amount of creative freedom too. If the sculptors aren't sculpting female models (or are being told not to sculpt them) then we don't get female models which is an issue. The entire company isn't responsible for a choice like that, just one department as stated.

I'm not privy to inner workings of the GW, so it is perfectly fair for me to blame GW for stupid decisions of important departments of the company.

Insane, but considering how quick people are to jump up and yell "that's racist" these days I can't really blame them from trying to avoid anything that could trigger such cries (of course this leads to unintentional racism since they never show anyone who isn't white, but it does avoid the caricature accusations where their own work can be used against them more concretely).

How fething hard it it is to to paint dark skin? This explanation doesn't make a slightest bit of sense.

 Crimson wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Is that from the Knights codex, or from the BL book that was talked about earlier? Because the BL has always been all over the place.

It's in the codex. They intentionally made another specifically male faction.

Then that specifically is stupid, and brings us up to 3 total male only factions (Marines, CSM (though I'm sure Slaanesh would like to say otherwise) and Knights). Dumb, but not the worst thing in the game.

 Crimson wrote:

To some extent, yes they are, but at the same they have a fair amount of creative freedom too. If the sculptors aren't sculpting female models (or are being told not to sculpt them) then we don't get female models which is an issue. The entire company isn't responsible for a choice like that, just one department as stated.

I'm not privy to inner workings of the GW, so it is perfectly fair for me to blame GW for stupid decisions of important departments of the company.

So you agree then that it's better to blame the departments that actually are related to the issues instead of the company as a whole? Or is that a typo?

Either way I am loath to blame store managers, people who work in casting or customer service for the faults of the design team.

 Crimson wrote:

Insane, but considering how quick people are to jump up and yell "that's racist" these days I can't really blame them from trying to avoid anything that could trigger such cries (of course this leads to unintentional racism since they never show anyone who isn't white, but it does avoid the caricature accusations where their own work can be used against them more concretely).

How fething hard it it is to to paint dark skin? This explanation doesn't make a slightest bit of sense.

I'm not saying it's hard, I am just saying that the idea apparently stems from the fear of being painted as racist even if they do a good job. Basically an extreme "can't please everyone, so let's not try" sort of mentality.

 Crimson wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Insane, but considering how quick people are to jump up and yell "that's racist" these days I can't really blame them from trying to avoid anything that could trigger such cries (of course this leads to unintentional racism since they never show anyone who isn't white, but it does avoid the caricature accusations where their own work can be used against them more concretely).

How fething hard it it is to to paint dark skin? This explanation doesn't make a slightest bit of sense.

They actually have, check both the 5th and 6th editions of C:SM

 ace101 wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Insane, but considering how quick people are to jump up and yell "that's racist" these days I can't really blame them from trying to avoid anything that could trigger such cries (of course this leads to unintentional racism since they never show anyone who isn't white, but it does avoid the caricature accusations where their own work can be used against them more concretely).

How fething hard it it is to to paint dark skin? This explanation doesn't make a slightest bit of sense.

They actually have, check both the 5th and 6th editions of C:SM

Or the 4th edition rule book.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Then that specifically is stupid, and brings us up to 3 total male only factions (Marines, CSM (though I'm sure Slaanesh would like to say otherwise) and Knights). Dumb, but not the worst thing in the game.

Marines being all male is a decision that was done ages ago, and it might be awkward to change it now. However, completely unnecessarily introducing a new all male faction now is a really poor decision. It is direct FU to all those people who have hoped more equal representation of the genders from GW.

So you agree then that it's better to blame the departments that actually are related to the issues instead of the company as a whole? Or is that a typo?

Either way I am loath to blame store managers, people who work in casting or customer service for the faults of the design team.

When I blame 'the company' I'm obviously blaming the people who are in position to make decisions about these things.

I'm not saying it's hard, I am just saying that the idea apparently stems from the fear of being painted as racist even if they do a good job. Basically an extreme "can't please everyone, so let's not try" sort of mentality.

No sane person would blame them as racist if they included more varied ethnicities. This is complete nonsense.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ace101 wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Insane, but considering how quick people are to jump up and yell "that's racist" these days I can't really blame them from trying to avoid anything that could trigger such cries (of course this leads to unintentional racism since they never show anyone who isn't white, but it does avoid the caricature accusations where their own work can be used against them more concretely).

How fething hard it it is to to paint dark skin? This explanation doesn't make a slightest bit of sense.

They actually have, check both the 5th and 6th editions of C:SM

I know, they obviously can do it. They just could do it a bit more often.

Crimson, I would like to point out in response to "no sane person" the fact that the world is full of people that would be willing to do just that anyways.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Crimson, I would like to point out in response to "no sane person" the fact that the world is full of people that would be willing to do just that anyways.

Certainly. And there is still way more people who see omitting minorities as problematic.

 Crimson wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Crimson, I would like to point out in response to "no sane person" the fact that the world is full of people that would be willing to do just that anyways.

Certainly. And there is still way more people who see omitting minorities as problematic.

I agree it is an issue (just like the lack of female Cadians, or the whole background with Kreig and what they do with women to pump out more soldiers to go die en masse (you know there is something wrong in their heads considering they're an army who employs Commisars to -restrain- the level of zealous "let me throw my body at them gloriously" going on in a Krieg regiment)), but I can at least aknowledge that they're trying to avoid the loud (and crazy) complaints from the kind of people who would make a big deal out of it and try to drag them through the mud.

I mean let's be honest here, no one has tried making a big stink about it the way some nutters would and that's likely why they're still painting so many pasty white models.

I thought Krieg uses authorized cloning tech to make recruits?

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
I thought Krieg uses authorized cloning tech to make recruits?

Then they may have changed things. There were some unfortunate implications of them basically using women as baby factories in the past.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
I thought Krieg uses authorized cloning tech to make recruits?

Then they may have changed things. There were some unfortunate implications of them basically using women as baby factories in the past.

According to Lexicanum, they use some sort of In Vitro / artificial womb thing

By order of the High Lords of Terra Krieg's sole purpose is to produce new regiments, and its tithes are the maximum possible for the planet's population, supplying over fifty million men per year.[4] This includes the use of unusual methods such as "Vitae Womb" birthing techniques, a practice seen as dangerous and abhorrent by the Adeptus Mechanicus' Magos Biologis but tolerated by the Departmento Munitorium, while others such as a eugenics program to weed out mutants is simply a continuation of policy from the civil war years

The Vitae-Womb is a method of genetic reproduction utilized by the scientists of Krieg to keep the planet's population up on their dying world in order to meet their Tithes for the Imperial Guard. A mysterious and little-understood technique outside of Krieg itself, this technology of mass-producing human organisms is seen as abhorrent to the Adeptus Mechanicus. Nonetheless the practice is tolerated as the Death Korps of Krieg are so vital to the Imperial war effort

Anyway, I suspect the reason why GW's range of skin tones tends to be homogeneous might be due to logistics - it's easier to paint 1000 models one color scheme, especially if there's a dead line involved.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Anyway, I suspect the reason why GW's range of skin tones tends to be homogeneous might be due to logistics - it's easier to paint 1000 models one color scheme, especially if there's a dead line involved.

That's a reason I can actually believe. I's not a good reason, but it is way more believable than Zion's theory.

It would explain why the more varied models tend to be conversions and showcases - the artist has more time to work on it, so he mixes it up a bit.
That's my observation anyway. May be bullocks.

 Crimson wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Anyway, I suspect the reason why GW's range of skin tones tends to be homogeneous might be due to logistics - it's easier to paint 1000 models one color scheme, especially if there's a dead line involved.

That's a reason I can actually believe. I's not a good reason, but it is way more believable than Zion's theory.

I never claimed it was my theory, I said it was something I was told by a friend who is former 'eavy Metal. To be fair they were 'eavy Metal back during 3rd so things have changed since then.