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winterdyne wrote:
Play x-wing. It's a real game.

Actually do. It's probably the best written rulesets I've ever played, and it's bags of fun.

If someone is complaining about balance in 40k they need their head looking at. 40k has never been balanced and was never really intended to be balanced - there is a reason the GW tourneys in rogue trader days were space marine on space marine.

Play chess, its the real game.

Extremely well-written ruleset, highly balanced, large community and heavy development and notoriety.

My first problem is that I really don't like Privateer Press miniatures, most are ugly, and I do not like the design :(. Second problem is that Warmachine/Hordes is the best Table-top GAME, from a rules and FUN gaming experience stand point. Nothing I have played beats it. 40k on the other hand have really cool lore/miniatures, but the gaming part of it is basically unplayable. I have to have balanced and competitive rules to be able to have fun playing games. If the rules are like GW makes them i get frustrated and annoyed. It destroys all the fun for me.

GW will never make balanced fun rules, history proves this. But I think many of us who have left GW for other games feel like those of you who stay(white knights), Are enabling GW to keep putting out trash rules. Your mindset and your way of thinking puzzles and frustrate us in the same way GWs unbalanced rules do. It starts off as a civil conversation, but it quickly turn ugly because like the company from where you buy your miniatures you are unable to listen to reason. I personally cant make myself play GW games, for me its a horrible experience from start to finish. I would like to be able to play their games, but defenders keep enabling them to put out crap rules.

Going after the company is not an option, but trying to talk people out of playing the game, giving GW less revenue is a viable option to combat the problem. Drop in sales might force GW to change things to get people back buying their products.

I operate from a total selfish standpoint. I really like the lore and the Miniatures of GW, I would like to be able to play games using those miniatures. Right now that is not an option, the rules need to become balanced and competitive. Bear and pretzels games are Boring, gives me nothing. Games are about competition for me, my fun is besting other players in a Balanced and fair gaming environment.

A game should not need house rules, or player made edits to function, the company who says they are making a game should care enough to make it balanced and competitive. A comparison would be if GW was in charge of a mayor sports event like the Olympics for example, they would probably allow doping and rules bending, and ask yourself who in the world would be interested in watching something like that? He scores!, no he didn't because we found this fuzzy rule that we are now exploiting, the writing is up for interpretation... No Goal!!

I ask the white knights please stop defending this horrible company, they do not deserve your loyalty....And stop putting time en effort into trying to FIX the game yourself, that is games Workshops Job not yours.

And to the OP Tyranno I personally feel that you are a lost soul in need of saving, like a drowning man you are sinking deeper under the waves of the unforgiving sea of lies that is games workshop. You have sunk too deep and you see no way out. You think you have past the point of no return. And you are gasping for breath. But there is salvation if you just turn around and start swimming for the surface. We are waiting in the rescue chopper, ready to pull you out and whisk you away to safety. I do understand that you have put both time and effort into GW games, so have we all, and it is not fun walking away, it hurts, you feel sad at first. But then you start playing another game and you quickly come to the realization that GW, have abused you for years, and like the rest of us who have left, you will start too see the company for what it really is, a money grabbing, soulless evil empire that needs to be brought down at all costs!

Oh please don't start the "Warmachine is the savior and the one true path" crap. Its a good tight rule system and a fun game, not the second coming.

I personally hate it when I'm set upon by a player of another system trying to convince me to play their game and they begin to attack my chosen gaming system. Like I'm not having fun the right way. And its not just 40k vs Warmachine either, one of our local warmachine players hates Dystopian Wars just because it took players from warmachine.

I also don't understand why people could be angry at others who still buy GW products. I like GW products and have a group I have fun games with, so I still buy them. I don't particularly care for their business practices or their monopolistic tendencies but I still enjoy their products.

Meh whatever, I'll probably have my post picked apart by some forum warrior but I need to get this off my chest.

 EmilCrane wrote:
Oh please don't start the "Warmachine is the savior and the one true path" crap. Its a good tight rule system and a fun game, not the second coming.

I personally hate it when I'm set upon by a player of another system trying to convince me to play their game and they begin to attack my chosen gaming system. Like I'm not having fun the right way. And its not just 40k vs Warmachine either, one of our local warmachine players hates Dystopian Wars just because it took players from warmachine.

I also don't understand why people could be angry at others who still buy GW products. I like GW products and have a group I have fun games with, so I still buy them. I don't particularly care for their business practices or their monopolistic tendencies but I still enjoy their products.

Meh whatever, I'll probably have my post picked apart by some forum warrior but I need to get this off my chest.

The reason we get mad that you keep buying GWs products is because we still in our hearts want to play games in the 40k universe. But GWs rules makes it impossible to do so. The only chance we have that a change might come to pass, is if more and more people stop buying their products. Loss in sales is the only proven method to get things to change. I personally play other games (not GW), infinity, Malifaux etc, sadly I have found that Warmachine/hordes is the better system from a rules and balance perspective. But the lore of these two games do not interest me that much, so I don't feel sad, or left out when I don't play them. From a hobby standpoint I have the most fun when I paint and convert GWs stuff, it brings me the greatest satisfaction. Sadly the Gaming experience is so horrible that I can no longer play the game. This is my problem....

So reasoning behind getting people to quit playing GW games, is because I want the game to change and become a balance and competitive experience that I might enjoy. Now I'm stuck playing Warmachine/Hordes, and the lack off conversion and the ability to put your own creative spin on things in that game is very very limited. If Privateer Press kept their tight rules, but offered up better and cooler lore( I have played the game since 2011 full time, but I still haven't bothered reading any of the lore). I would be a happy camper I guess. But that happening is as likely as GW making a decent balanced game...

Point is we do not whine and cry on these boards because we do not care about the 40k or Warhammer universe or miniatures, it is often the total opposite... We are frustrated after years and years of trying the make the game work, and finally we throw in the towel and go our separate ways. But that doesn't mean we still don't have a passion for the hobby side of things, only that we wish that the rules were as good as the lore and the miniatures :(

I guess if you do not play the game competitively, and do not care for all the random dice rolling and overbloated dice use in the game, you might still have fun playing the game. But for me it is a very frustrating experience. Random and chance/luck or what type of list you have should not win you games, only skill. In Warmachine/hordes I win because of my tactical decisions during the match, it is a skill game much like chess etc.. The satisfaction of a good plan working out is just too rewarding to give up. And you feel in control of what is happening. Sadly you are not even in control of how far your miniatures charge in 40k anymore. Invulnerable saves is a horrible game design from a tactics perspective, there are so many things that are wrong in 40k, that the game needs a total revamp. Tough is an invulnerable save in Warmachine/hordes, but there exist countermeasures to take that away, that is good game design... Also the option to end the game by killing the opposing Warcaster/Warlock, means that you are in the game until the bitter end, there is always a chance to turn things around, even if it is a very slim chance. And that makes a game like Warmachine/hordes much more entertaining for people like myself.

Another fact is that the people who say they do not care for balance and want beer and pretzel game, should by their own statement not care if there was balance? so if 40k became balanced their gaming experience should not be affected at all, but it would drastically change things for the rest off us who want balanced and competitive games. So to force through a revamp of the rules is a win, win situations for all concerned.. Sadly Games Workshop ignores this fact, at their own loss. More and more people are jumping ship every day and their declining sales figures show this. If they will do anything about it remains to be seen.....

First of all I apologize if I sounded hostile, it's almost 2am here.

Second of all, while I don't doubt that war machine is the more tactical game there is still plenty of tactics in 40k when you aren't playing with TFGs. Games between mid tier TAC lists have plenty of tactical opportunity. 40k isn't all flavor of the month cheese spam.

However, many of the things you say are why I play more dystopian than GW games these days, I just prefer to keep my options open.

 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:

winterdyne wrote:
Play x-wing. It's a real game.
Actually do. It's probably the best written rulesets I've ever played, and it's bags of fun.
If someone is complaining about balance in 40k they need their head looking at. 40k has never been balanced and was never really intended to be balanced - there is a reason the GW tourneys in rogue trader days were space marine on space marine.

Play chess, its the real game.

Also, Russian Roulette.

Now thats a real game. Balanced and easy to pick up.

Play it often enough and you will never play anything else ever again.

A thread about "Horrible attitudes".

I think we have demonstrated them enough...

Usually caused by thinking you are 100% in the right and not being open to other ideas.

Half the fun is people expressing these opinions unsolicited and then I get to make fun of them the whole game, it is my way of showing I care. People are oh so serious about these things...

 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:

winterdyne wrote:
Play x-wing. It's a real game.

Actually do. It's probably the best written rulesets I've ever played, and it's bags of fun.

If someone is complaining about balance in 40k they need their head looking at. 40k has never been balanced and was never really intended to be balanced - there is a reason the GW tourneys in rogue trader days were space marine on space marine.

Play chess, its the real game.

Extremely well-written ruleset, highly balanced, large community and heavy development and notoriety.

Nah Man. White is OP as Heck.

Try Byzantine Chess - played on a round board, the Rooks become incredibly powerful

Or Polish Chess (I no longer remember its proper name - it was a 13th C. Chess game from Poland) - you roll 2d6, use one of them to choose which piece you are allowed to move:
1 - you can move a Pawn
2 - you can move a Bishop
3 - you can move a Knight
4 - you can move a Rook
5 - you can move your Queen
6 - you can move your King
So rolling two dice gives you two pieces to choose from. A variant allows you to move whatever you want when you get doubles. The game was usually played when gambling. (Things that you learn from the SCA....)

*EDIT* And over time some of the chess pieces were removed or reworked - Archers and Elephants....

In any event, I kind of hope the religious war up there was a deliberate satire, otherwise the world is a sadder place than I thought....

The Auld Grump

zlayer77 wrote:
Now I'm stuck playing Warmachine/Hordes, and the lack off conversion and the ability to put your own creative spin on things in that game is very very limited. If Privateer Press kept their tight rules, but offered up better and cooler lore( I have played the game since 2011 full time, but I still haven't bothered reading any of the lore). I would be a happy camper I guess. But that happening is as likely as GW making a decent balanced game...

This post makes me a sad panda.
Conversions are allowed, and encouraged. There are frequent painting, and conversion contents, and competitions in NQ, and I’ve seen quite a few excellent conversions on their painting/modelling forum that got a lot of support from the playerbase. There are some slight limits – like for like swaps for weapons (which to be fair, makes sense given PP’s very exacting terminology) and even then, PP give a “get out of jail” clause in that the TO has the final say. Sweet talk them, and you’ll find few problems. I’ve never had anyone bat an eyelid at my axe wielding doom reavers (to be fair, “fellblades” doesn’t specify sword – axes are bladed weapons!)
Regarding your creative spin – fair enough on not being able to create customised characters. But to be honest, I don’t miss it. For all the talk of making “your own unique” commander in 40k, I never really saw it. It either had dodgy fluff, or a near identical loadout to the optimum build for that model. The illusion of choice, nothing more. Never mind the fact that the ratio of "names" like Marneus Calgar, Eldrad and Vulkan hestan when compared no "unique" individuals is extremely high! Having an option like that in warmachine would be counter productive – everyone would simply upgrade their “hand weapon” to a “magical hand weapon with reach”, and buy the following spells: crippling grasp, purification, defenders ward, signs and portents, and deneghra’s feat.
Furthermore, the iron kingdoms is a small setting, geographically speaking, and also in terms of population. There simply isn’t the space for everyone’s special snowflake commander.
Nor does there need to be. In ways, I feel that your personal character comes at the expense of the shared narrative. Frankly, someone’s no-name generic SM commander means nothing to me. You might have a novel written about him – means nothing to me. All it does is dissociate me from the game, and the universe. But when we’re talking about universal characters, like Butcher, Caine and magnus, its easier to get behind them, and start rooting for them and share in their adventures. its the same reason why we can share joy in movies and books.
Now to be fair, you cant make your own unique leader (and I feel that’s OK), but whats stopping you making your own regiment? No reason not to! How about the 87th regiment of the 2nd Army of Khador – the “Iron Boars”. Give them commanders, give them dispositions (iron fangs and winter guard mainly), along with duties and current locations (garrisoning the thornwood, engaged in routine search and destroy operations against the local cryx forces) and mention the warcasters most normally associated with them (say, Butcher and Irusk). Give them a list of recent victories and defeats, and write them on the flag. Give them their own colour scheme. Just because you can’t make your own character doesn’t mean you cant make your army your own.

Now, I’m going to have a proper go at you. You say “if privateer press offered better, and cooler lore”. And then you say you’ve never read any of it. Please, take that back. With respect, you’re talking rubbish. (and please realise that I’m saying this in a friendly way!) Privateer press’s fluff is excellent. Don’t just look at whats in the anthologies, and forces of… books. Although they’re a lot of fun, and really explore the characters, and factions, the real meat of PP’s fluff is their RPG material. Just as you don’t just base 40k’s lore on whats in a Codex, you cant base Warmachine’s lore on its forces of… books. Track down some of the older stuff if you can (interwebs PDFs mostly) and read up on the character guide, Five Fingers, Monsternomicon 1 and 2, the world guide and so on. The material is stellar. The World guide itself is crazy. 400 pages that explore something like 4,000 years of history. It explores each nation, each province, each city, and describes everything from trades and industry, religions, culture, entertainment, education, the movers and shakers of the world and so on. Its funny – I was like you, saying PPs fluff is rubbish, GWs is better. And then grey knights happened along with the sillyness that is Kalder bloody Draigo. In one fell swoop, I lost all interest in 40ks vaunted lore-it went from grimdark to grimderp.
So I took the plunge and started reading PPs RPG material. Went in rather bemused and unimpressed, and left it almost able to hear the clanking and hissing of the steam engines, and taste the coal smoke in the air. It came alive. No, I’m serious. I devoured the rest of their fiction after that. And afterwards, I can honestly tell you that the iron kingdoms, as a fictional universe, is outstanding. The lore is excellent. It is vibrant, colourful, gritty, imaginative, evocative, and extremely characterful. It felt like it was almost alive – it felt like it was a living, breathing thing. It’s a world I can get lost in again and again. Since then, PP have revamped their RPG – its no longer a D20 setting, and they have released a number of books – the Iron Kingdoms RPG, Urban Adventures, and Kings Nations and Gods-again, all excellent sources of lore, and genuinely good reads. Beyond that, there is frequent fiction in the form of short stories throughout their NQ magazine – they’re starting to collect it all and publish it separately. And lets not forget their new publishing wing (staffed by some award winning best selling authors like larry correia) – skull island expeditions. I’ve downloaded most of the books, and they’re very enjoyable. I’d heartily recommend Into the Storm, the warlock sagas: instruments of war, and mutagenesis (about Makeda and thagrosh respectively), the warcaster chronicles: the way of Caine, and the Butcher of Khardov (about Caine and Orsus, respectively!)

I heartily recommend that you have a look at PPs fiction, and not just claim disinterest. You are genuinely missing out on some fantastic stuff zlayer. Give it a try, and you will not be disappointed.

TheAuldGrump wrote:

Stuff about chess

I recently read Matthew Reilly’s rather good book “The tournament”, which has a chess tournament as a backdrop to the story. He delved into the history of the game a bit, and it was quite interesting to read how the pieces evolved as the game matured (chariots becoming castles etc) and travelled as well as interesting analogies (the bishop’s diagonal movements representing a bishop’s abilitiy to weave between factions, the relationship between a king and his pawns etc) that the pieces held.

Deadnight wrote:

zlayer77 wrote:
Now I'm stuck playing Warmachine/Hordes, and the lack off conversion and the ability to put your own creative spin on things in that game is very very limited. If Privateer Press kept their tight rules, but offered up better and cooler lore( I have played the game since 2011 full time, but I still haven't bothered reading any of the lore). I would be a happy camper I guess. But that happening is as likely as GW making a decent balanced game...

This post makes me a sad panda.
Conversions are allowed, and encouraged. There are frequent painting, and conversion contents, and competitions in NQ, and I’ve seen quite a few excellent conversions on their painting/modelling forum that got a lot of support from the playerbase. There are some slight limits – like for like swaps for weapons (which to be fair, makes sense given PP’s very exacting terminology) and even then, PP give a “get out of jail” clause in that the TO has the final say. Sweet talk them, and you’ll find few problems. I’ve never had anyone bat an eyelid at my axe wielding doom reavers (to be fair, “fellblades” doesn’t specify sword – axes are bladed weapons!)

Not at all true from my observations. The Tourney Circuit is all backed by PP so they require PP only models. (you take the King's Coin, you do the King's bidding) Also, people who play Warmachine are WYSIWYG required way more than 40k players, especially with clocks involved. I am sure people's mileage may vary, but non-wysiwyg models, conversions and 3rd party stand-ins are usually not welcome at official PP sponsored tourneys.

I agree with OP. Toxic atmosphere on many web boards. 40k is still a fun game.

nkelsch wrote:

Not at all true from my observations. The Tourney Circuit is all backed by PP so they require PP only models. (you take the King's Coin, you do the King's bidding) Also, people who play Warmachine are WYSIWYG required way more than 40k players, especially with clocks involved. I am sure people's mileage may vary, but non-wysiwyg models, conversions and 3rd party stand-ins are usually not welcome at official PP sponsored tourneys.

Obviously you haven't been to any high level official PP sponsored tourneys then and are just talking out of your donkey hole because it happens (and has proof on video online) somewhat regularly.

12thRonin wrote:

nkelsch wrote:

Not at all true from my observations. The Tourney Circuit is all backed by PP so they require PP only models. (you take the King's Coin, you do the King's bidding) Also, people who play Warmachine are WYSIWYG required way more than 40k players, especially with clocks involved. I am sure people's mileage may vary, but non-wysiwyg models, conversions and 3rd party stand-ins are usually not welcome at official PP sponsored tourneys.

Obviously you haven't been to any high level official PP sponsored tourneys then and are just talking out of your donkey hole because it happens (and has proof on video online) somewhat regularly.

What proof? saying it happened once somewhere and happens everywhere and widely accepted are not the same thing.

*PP players expect WYSIWYG due to the total lack of need for conversions and the expectation of time-based games. Many players are not tolerant of confusing conversions.
*PP events often have 'PP models required' (as they should and as did GW back in the day when they sponsored events) enforcement is a per-TO thing, but it is kinda hard for an official event to have your 'best painted' army be of models you do not produce or have photos of your games events with NOT your companies models.

I have been to events with high level PP sponsored events and I have seen these restrictions. Having a video of one person somewhere playing a total conversion warmachine army with all 3rd party stand-ins doesn't mean it is widely accepted.

All models used in Privateer Press organized play events
must be Privateer Press miniatures from the WARMACHINE
or HORDES lines. The miniatures must be fully assembled
on the appropriately sized base for which the model was
designed. Any non–Privateer Press models, unassembled
miniatures, or inappropriately based models are not
permitted.

A converted model must contain a majority of parts from the
WARMACHINE or HORDES model for which the rules were
written. For example, a Testament of Menoth conversion must
be composed mostly of parts from the Testament of Menoth
model. The end result of any conversion must be clearly
identifiable as the intended miniature and must accurately
represent its weapons and equipment as listed in its rules.
Any conversions must be clearly pointed out to the opponent
before the game to avoid confusion.

The conversions rules are almost an entire page, they basically give laundry lists of things which are simply not acceptable and how you cannot take parts from one model to use on another model.

*No 3rd party stand ins.
*Very strict limits on what is a allowed conversion.
*WYSIWYG is required, If your conversion is confusing, it is not allowed.
*TOs can ban your stuff on a whim.

All from PPs official event rules which everyone uses.

Really? The Iron Guantlet Finals at Lock & Load 2013 doesn't count? Go wipe now. Every major event sees people playing something that is a conversion.

The only part of that your statement that is remotely correct is 3rd party unless it's approved.

nkelsch wrote:
Not at all true from my observations. The Tourney Circuit is all backed by PP so they require PP only models. (you take the King's Coin, you do the King's bidding) Also, people who play Warmachine are WYSIWYG required way more than 40k players, especially with clocks involved. I am sure people's mileage may vary, but non-wysiwyg models, conversions and 3rd party stand-ins are usually not welcome at official PP sponsored tourneys.

I'm not sure how PP can be more WYSIWYG than GW as all the models have a card that goes with them that gives the rules for the unit/model. There are no options other than how many and what unit attachments you want to take, which have their own unit cards. If someone takes an Ironclad, it's the same for everyone. The biggest issue I've known about with PP conversions is that PP doesn't offer too much in the way of bits support.

Barfolomew wrote:

nkelsch wrote:
Not at all true from my observations. The Tourney Circuit is all backed by PP so they require PP only models. (you take the King's Coin, you do the King's bidding) Also, people who play Warmachine are WYSIWYG required way more than 40k players, especially with clocks involved. I am sure people's mileage may vary, but non-wysiwyg models, conversions and 3rd party stand-ins are usually not welcome at official PP sponsored tourneys.

I'm not sure how PP can be more WYSIWYG than GW as all the models have a card that goes with them that gives the rules for the unit/model. There are no options other than how many and what unit attachments you want to take, which have their own unit cards. If someone takes an Ironclad, it's the same for everyone. The biggest issue I've known about with PP conversions is that PP doesn't offer too much in the way of bits support.

PP has a great bits system. You can buy almost any metal piece you want from their website.

EXAMPLE:
http://store.privateerpress.com/battleengines.aspx

It is not just that you have a 'unit' but your unit needs to look like the unit for it to be legal. One could argue 'doesn't matter what it looks like, this only comes in one configuration so he can look like or be holding anything' but that is not what the 'expectation' is.

Weapons cannot be swapped on warjack and warbeast
models. Since many of the ’jacks utilize the same chassis
and many of the beasts utilize the same torso, the weapons
are the most identifiable part of the model when looking
across the tabletop.

For example, a helljack
with one claw and one harpoon is not Malice; the model must
have the correct head, harpoon blade, and all three spirit parts
from the Malice upgrade in order to be considered Malice.

Just saying that they go into great detail on what you 'can't' do, And people take it super serious sometimes. Saying 'Awwww, events don't actually enforce the printed rules for PP games, and you should convert hundreds of dollars of metal minis on the chance you will be allowed to ignore those rules at TO discretion' isn't a draw for gamers who are huge into conversions or total conversion armies.

nkelsch wrote:

The conversions rules are almost an entire page, they basically give laundry lists of things which are simply not acceptable and how you cannot take parts from one model to use on another model.

*No 3rd party stand ins.
*Very strict limits on what is a allowed conversion.
*WYSIWYG is required, If your conversion is confusing, it is not allowed.
*TOs can ban your stuff on a whim.

All from PPs official event rules which everyone uses.

Except for how it's interpreted and applied. It's in place to prevent confusion as to what is what. Conversions do happen and are pretty common in high level events. Go watch anything on endgamegaming.net with Billy Robin, Keith Christensen, Jason Flanzer, or about anyone playing Harbinger or Legion. This is just the ones that are readily observable as a conversion. The proof is out there that you're flat out wrong. Sorry.

nkelsch wrote:

Just saying that they go into great detail on what you 'can't' do, And people take it super serious sometimes. Saying 'Awwww, events don't actually enforce the printed rules for PP games, and you should convert hundreds of dollars of metal minis on the chance you will be allowed to ignore those rules at TO discretion' isn't a draw for gamers who are huge into conversions or total conversion armies.

Tell that to the guys that did the Cryxnar and Storm King armies and have brought them to PP run events.

I find the people who have the most problem with the PP event conversion rules are the kinds who want to do whatever they want conversion wise without worrying about its effects on game play. Not saying there's anything wrong with doing that, but WM/H isn't the game for that.

nkelsch wrote:

The conversions rules are almost an entire page, they basically give laundry lists of things which are simply not acceptable and how you cannot take parts from one model to use on another model.

*No 3rd party stand ins.
*Very strict limits on what is a allowed conversion.
*WYSIWYG is required, If your conversion is confusing, it is not allowed.
*TOs can ban your stuff on a whim.

All from PPs official event rules which everyone uses.

Negative much?

TOs can also approve stuff nkelsch. You'd be quite surprised. It's not about cracking dorm on those that don't toe the line. You have the official policy from pp which is as you say, but even pp says the final say so ultimately lies with the to. And I've yet to meet one who was an ass about conversions. I've yet to meet an opponent who wasn't cool with me (or anyone) using an epic caster model in place of a prime version (because I prefer it) or have an issue with a converted model.

So yeah, my experience trumps your say so.

 Platuan4th wrote:

nkelsch wrote:

Just saying that they go into great detail on what you 'can't' do, And people take it super serious sometimes. Saying 'Awwww, events don't actually enforce the printed rules for PP games, and you should convert hundreds of dollars of metal minis on the chance you will be allowed to ignore those rules at TO discretion' isn't a draw for gamers who are huge into conversions or total conversion armies.

Tell that to the guys that did the Cryxnar and Storm King armies and have brought them to PP run events.

Honest answer, please. Would you tell a new player interested in the tourney scene to convert their Warmahordes army or keep it stock? Say they approached you excited to start up faction X, but using models from factions Y, Z, and A, and they planned on taking this army to tournament B occurring in six months. Would you dissuade them due to PP's conversion policy or encourage the gamble that they will be taking with their army?

When I played WM in MK 1's days conversions were rare and people always had the real model as back up, and when new players inquired about the conversion policies of PP they were always told to have a back up model "just in case" their conversion ran afoul of a tourney organizer. That isn't an encouraging policy for the conversion-minded folks who also want to play competitively.

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:


Honest answer, please. Would you tell a new player interested in the tourney scene to convert their Warmahordes army or keep it stock? Say they approached you excited to start up faction X, but using models from factions Y, Z, and A, and they planned on taking this army to tournament B occurring in six months. Would you dissuade them due to PP's conversion policy or encourage the gamble that they will be taking with their army?

Honest answer? I'd ask them if they were planning on doing the conversion work necessary to comply with PP's SR rules of conversions and further advise them depending on their answer. If yes, go for it. If no, then I'd advise that SR and other official events probably aren't the thing for them.

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:

nkelsch wrote:

Just saying that they go into great detail on what you 'can't' do, And people take it super serious sometimes. Saying 'Awwww, events don't actually enforce the printed rules for PP games, and you should convert hundreds of dollars of metal minis on the chance you will be allowed to ignore those rules at TO discretion' isn't a draw for gamers who are huge into conversions or total conversion armies.

Tell that to the guys that did the Cryxnar and Storm King armies and have brought them to PP run events.

Honest answer, please. Would you tell a new player interested in the tourney scene to convert their Warmahordes army or keep it stock? Say they approached you excited to start up faction X, but using models from factions Y, Z, and A, and they planned on taking this army to tournament B occurring in six months. Would you dissuade them due to PP's conversion policy or encourage the gamble that they will be taking with their army?

When I played WM in MK 1's days conversions were rare and people always had the real model as back up, and when new players inquired about the conversion policies of PP they were always told to have a back up model "just in case" their conversion ran afoul of a tourney organizer. That isn't an encouraging policy for the conversion-minded folks who also want to play competitively.

You answered your own question. Go for it, but have a backup in case. I played for about a year with a Reaper Pug mini as the war dog for Butcher. Had the official dog in the case. Nobody ever said a thing about it.

12thRonin wrote:
You answered your own question. Go for it, but have a backup in case. I played for about a year with a Reaper Pug mini as the war dog for Butcher. Had the official dog in the case. Nobody ever said a thing about it.

It was a rhetorical question. If you have to inform a player that they will need to buy completely redundant models, and in my example above (and piggy backing off of Platuan4th's examples of converted armies) that would amount to an entirely redundant army being necessary just so a player can "safely" play in tournaments.

Granted, as most people have experienced, TO's generally don't throw up much of a fuss about conversions, but if you are being honest about PP's policies and being upfront with new players who want to convert, then you do have to stress the possibility of their lovingly converted army being disqualified at official events due to the whims of a TO.

That just isn't a friendly atmosphere for conversions, no matter how often the rules are bent in a converter's favor. The fact that the rules exist at all is a discouragement, especially for army-wide thematic conversions that may require a second "official" army for tournament play.

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:


Granted, as most people have experienced, TO's generally don't throw up much of a fuss about conversions, but if you are being honest about PP's policies and being upfront with new players who want to convert, then you do have to stress the possibility of their lovingly converted army being disqualified at official events due to the whims of a TO.

I've always been 100% honest about PP's conversion policy when introducing new players. I tend to keep a copy of the SR documents in my bag and it was one of the first things I showed my Colorado group when I converted them to the system.

That said, I also have the Cryxnar and Storm King threads bookmarked on my phone to show examples of extreme but acceptable conversions that are completely compliant with those rules.

I used to be one of those jerks who praised second edition blindly, but now I am strongly of the opinion that sixth edition is my favorite. Yes, I admit every edition had flaws, but sixth has less of them, and from what I've heard, this 6.5 thing they're doing this summer will fix one that I think really needs to be fixed. (Restoring the ability to consolidate from one close combat victory into another close combat. YES!!! And I hope they don't change overwatch, I think it works just fine the way it is.)

 Eilif wrote:
Hmm, a fresh face new user whose 10th post is to tell GW critics what's wrong with their attitudes. Kind of hard to even summon up the energy to write a retort, suffice to say that if you don't like hearing from people who...
-Don't like the current game as much as you
-Like other versions better
-think there are better games
-think that GW has made some major missteps
-Are annoyed with GW pricing

...then steer clear of Dakka.
Also, you might want to steer clear of the internet as a whole.

One of the best things about Dakka, IMHO, is that while still being largely made up of GW fans and players, it's also grown to encompass other games and GW critics as well.

That said, welcome to delightfully controlled (perhaps "corralled" is a better term) world that is Dakka, and I hope you stick around.

I like dakka because people disagree with me, gives me the chance to test my ideas. And validate or revise them.

 zlayer77 wrote:
I operate from a total selfish standpoint. I really like the lore and the Miniatures of GW, I would like to be able to play games using those miniatures. Right now that is not an option, the rules need to become balanced and competitive. Bear and pretzels games are Boring, gives me nothing. Games are about competition for me, my fun is besting other players in a Balanced and fair gaming environment.

40k is not a Bear and Pretzels game, that would be dangerous, the bear would either eat you or the pretzels.

40k isn't a Beer and Pretzels game either despite how often GW repeats the myth. Beer and Pretzels games are supposed to be easy to pick up fun games without being overly complex and full of tomes of rules. When you have a rule book the size of an encyclopaedia and each person still need another book with rules and lists for their army to play you are pretty damn far out of beer and pretzel territory. The only thing it has in common with Beer and Pretzels games is a heavy reliance on randomness.

Tyranno wrote:
1:

You know, most people here put effort into things. Things like building, painting armies, etc. And many develop affection for their armies, gaming system etc.

Telling people "you should play [game] instead, its a real game" is the worst attempt at advertising what you play and/or that game's fandom possible. I can't fathom how anyone's first impression of a game being "its played by obnoxious people" could make anyone consider playing it.

2:

It's brilliant that you prefer 2nd edition to any other edition. But really, the frequent chronologically backwards lists of how every edition had flaws that often end with third, and creative license with history* is just ridiculous. Comming off as someone who whined for fifteen years while following a gaming system you didn't like doesn't exactly help your credibility either. And ignoring anything wrong with second edition doesn't change that many things were.

* - For example, the designers' vision of 40K involved that Terminators would not be diving for cover as often as Guardsmen; therefore, cover shouldn't be as beneficial to Terminators so players wouldn't play that way. The second edition shooting rules weren't adequete for that purpose. But, despite legimate reasons, many second ed fanatics would rather pretend GW thinks the players are dumb and incapable of maths despite the Fanatsy Battle shooting rules being similar to second ed 40K.

3:

The people who blame GW for everything.

If you have five 40K armies despite that meaning you only use each 1/5th as often as if you only had a single arm - and, technically, spending hundreds of dollars to reduce what you're getting from what you've already got -, you probably shouldn't be complaining about GW prices. They didn't make you purchase an extra four armies. Probably shouldn't be suggesting any greed is solely GW either.

I've been collecting / playing since 2003 and I agree with pretty much all of what you said.
Things I've learned in my time in this hobbie is that people love to be:
Contrarians about everything.
"Unique", People hate on Space Marines, Tau and Eldar but worship Sisters as holy deities because they're rare, prestigious and under powered. If Sisters get a new codex and reach the lofty heights of Eldar, then I guarantee they will be scorned with the same prejudice and we will get an army of people who never collected them before claiming they wish they were like they were back in the "good ol' days" much like Grey Knights in 5th.
"Rose coloured glasses syndrome", People clamoring for Squats to be brought back, that the old 2nd ed Space Marines looked better and the old Armour Cast stuff is superior to FW... These things went extinct for a reason.

1: I think that pretty much comes down to: People hearing the same questions over and over and rather than ignore them or spend 20 seconds of their precious time on actual advice. They just use that throw away line to come off as edgy and prove to everyone else that they are too good for this newb asking these "plebeian" questions, however if you go through their comment history you find them asking the exact same dumb questions earlier on.
2: Kinda already covered this one.
3: This started as a good thing but has now escalated to mass circlejerk and bandwagon hopping. You only have to go to the new Imperial Guard rumours thread and the Imperial Knight threads to see how far this has gone. Which is a shame because some people have valid points but they just get drowned out by a sea of whining.