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So some people either don't see, or can look past, any 'problems' with gw. I'm not sure if telling them they have limited ability to reason is a good idea if you're trying to use rational arguments as to why they should boycott GW.

You're literally saying, "you're not going to understand what I'm about to say, but I'm going to tell you anyway. Just trust my superior ability to reason".

Even if you're right and PP is GW++++ this is not the way to win people over.

Does PP have a big indy scene like GW? I think a big part of the fin with GW games is the indy scene is so open to alt minis and so on. I know it has been said PP sponsored PP events are strict on models, but what about the indy scene (if there is one)?

Deadnight wrote:

zlayer77 wrote:
Now I'm stuck playing Warmachine/Hordes, and the lack off conversion and the ability to put your own creative spin on things in that game is very very limited. If Privateer Press kept their tight rules, but offered up better and cooler lore( I have played the game since 2011 full time, but I still haven't bothered reading any of the lore). I would be a happy camper I guess. But that happening is as likely as GW making a decent balanced game...

This post makes me a sad panda.

I'm going to try to make you understand what i mean. PPs miniatures are not that fun to convert, there is no real need to do so, they come finished out of the box. Identical posing is also a boring thing, and PP has allot of that both with their plastic kits and Troops. And it doesn't get me excited as a painter, so i just slap on some paint and put them on the table. I know allot of people that feel the same way. It is better to keep them as is for easy identification and putting axes on stuff that uses swords? why? I don't get it? Conversion for me is sticking to what the Miniature is not changing it putting more weapons on it, or changing weapon loadouts, that is just silly. A good conversion in my Book is when you stick so close to the original miniature that everyone that sees it knows what it is and what it does. The fun thing about creating your own paint paint schemes and well converted miniature is just not there for me with privateer press stuff sorry.

Same goes for the lore, It just doesn't click for me. I also feel that most of the armies are all over the place. The central themes are not good enough and most of them feel like a mess. For example Menoth, half the army is holy paladin knights, but then we have shaolin monks, Jihad bedouins with bombs, Native hunters of some sort.. it is just all over the place... Same goes for Circle, The Warbeasts are all over the place, half are constructs, the other half is a mix of wolfs, birds, dogs and satyrs(why satyrs in the middle of this.... don't get it) and then we have the Gorax who is the odd man out and don't fit in at all. Among the troops we have Ravager tribes mixed with druids and hunters... and then we have the skinwalkers, who go well with the Wolf warbeasts.. and ofc construct troops... But when I put everything togheter it is just a broken mix of 5 different themes. Kahador is another example.. Base army is Mother Russia inspired cossacks. But then we throw in Gladiators with swords with screaming skulls Why?? they just don't fit the rest of the army. the list goes on and on and on but no Faction in Warmachine/Hordes has a clean good design that appeals too me sorry...

If you compare this to the clean design of say a Space marine Chapter or a Tyranid swarm.. it just doesn't match up for me. I do not get the WoW effect I need to get exited about painting or converting armies. I do not get exited about painting armies that from the start do not make any sense. Sadly PPs armies makes zero sense sorry...

Now keep in mind I only play Warmachine/Hordes, it is the only game I play about 2-3 times a week. But I do not play it for the lore or the miniatures design because for me they just don't do anything. I play it for the rules, I also like to play chess And there is zero lore there, you do not need lore, you just need a good Balance game system to have fun. But from a hobby perspective I sadly get little thrills from Warmachine/hordes...We are about 12 people in my club and about 90% of us share this assessment of the game, we don't care about the lore or the miniatures but in the end the rules system and Balanced game play is more important then what the gak you put on the table looks like.... But I do think that if PP got better at Army's visual construction, and got some central themes and made better kits with more options(that made sense), that they would really dominate the Table-top market.. What they have now is some of the best rules I have played.. but that is about it...

If so many of you dislike Warmachine so much aside from the rules, why not explore other games. Smaller scale, skirmish, different settings... There's other games out there with great rules you could try.

 -Loki- wrote:
If so many of you dislike Warmachine so much aside from the rules, why not explore other games. Smaller scale, skirmish, different settings... There's other games out there with great rules you could try.

The Balance in Warmachine is hands down the best.. I play Bolt action, Malifaux and Infinity also none of them comes close to the level of competitive play you get out of Warmachine/Hordes. We always play with chess clock, timed turns or deathclock, always steamroller... I friend of mine invested a few thousand into the kick starter of Warzone, we tested it out a few weeks ago.. sadly it wasn't good enough...

We are old dudes who have been around in this hobby a long long time. And we are highly competitive, only option on the market that I can see if we were not playing Warmachine/Hordes is playing chess....

The only downside for me with Warmachine/hordes is the Faction Designs, themes etc.. they are just not clean enough. Also if you look at the posing of say a GW miniature you see that allot of thought has gone into the design. I do professional art design and there are rules and things maybe only a trained eye picks up, but sadly privateer press is still on amateur hour with many of their designs...

There are allot of other people on the Market who make really nice looking miniatures. But if you look at infinity for example they suffer even more then PP in the clean design department. Everything looks the same. I base this off if you have zero knowledge about the game and just look at what you see. I maybe damaged because of my background in design and art but my personal feeling is that Clear identification is very very important when you design something.

DarkTraveler777 wrote:
It was a rhetorical question. If you have to inform a player that they will need to buy completely redundant models, and in my example above (and piggy backing off of Platuan4th's examples of converted armies) that would amount to an entirely redundant army being necessary just so a player can "safely" play in tournaments.

Granted, as most people have experienced, TO's generally don't throw up much of a fuss about conversions, but if you are being honest about PP's policies and being upfront with new players who want to convert, then you do have to stress the possibility of their lovingly converted army being disqualified at official events due to the whims of a TO.

That just isn't a friendly atmosphere for conversions, no matter how often the rules are bent in a converter's favor. The fact that the rules exist at all is a discouragement, especially for army-wide thematic conversions that may require a second "official" army for tournament play.

With respect, I think you’re exaggerating, especially the part about needing an entire redundant army. While it’s not an open book in terms of “what goes”, it’s a simple matter of being smart about how you go about your converting. Could a TO disqualify your stuff? Well, maybe. But probably not, if it’s a decent conversion. Remember, they’re gamers too. In the case of Space Marines standing in for Iron Fangs, “because you prefer the model”, I’ll side with the TO in saying “No”. if you’ve got plate wearing historical figures, I’d argue no – again, iron Fangs have a very distinctive “look” with their shoulder pads. If it’s a “barbarian” themed army, and your Iron Fangs are all converted so each wears a wolf pelt, and with a brass rodded piston spear, you’ll be fine. I’ve got my iron Fang sergeant converted to be wielding a spear in his left hand/shield in his right (in other words, the opposite from regular models), and I used Space Marine arms to do it, with the IF shoulder pads glued and pinned on the shoulders. I’ve never had anyone raise an issue. If your Manhunter is running around bare chested – cool! If your Ogrun Bokur is converted to be an Iron Fang themed Bokur with an appropriate shield, spear and armour, you’ll get no issues. If your doomreavers are doomreavers from the waist up, and iron fangs from the waist down, its (a) obvious what they are, and (b) a pretty neat conversion. If your Warpwolf uses some different parts for a different pose (I’ve seen a ghetorix conversion using the satyr body – it was legal as most of the parts came from the ghetorix/warpwolf kit), you’ll be fine. Regarding the “weapon type” argument - How about models armed with weapons with vague nomenclature – like Champions armed with “hand weapons”? I have a squad of doomreavers converted to be axe wielders (they’re officially armed with “fellblades”, and I got around it since axes are bladed weapons. It doesn’t specify anywhere doom reavers “must have swords”.) I’m sure you could do a Druss the Legend conversion of Butcher, and convert Lola to Snaga, and give him a greenstuffed beard and Druss’ distinctive helmet, shoulder and arm guards. Again, there is design space. And so on. There have been some amazing army conversions that have been fully legal (stormhammer:assault on sul, cryxnar, revenge of scyrah themed cryx/goreshade army) and some amazingly converted models that have gotten thumbs up, all round.
I wouldn’t say it’s not a friendly atmosphere – that’s disingenuous. PP often do a conversion corner, run painting, and conversion competitions. Recently in NQ they did a big splurge on a guy’s pirate themed trollblood army. And yes, it was obviously doomshaper, but all pirated up with monkeys, peg legs, pirate hat, parrot, eye patch and a treasure chest. He was going the whole hog iirc and making a while army in the same vein.
I disagree with you when you say it’s a discouragement. You just need to be smart, and reasonable about it.

nareik wrote:
Does PP have a big indy scene like GW? I think a big part of the fin with GW games is the indy scene is so open to alt minis and so on. I know it has been said PP sponsored PP events are strict on models, but what about the indy scene (if there is one)?

By definition, the indy scene is one that doesn’t necessarily hold itself to “the official company line”. Its not all steamrollers. Folks play warmachine casually too. We play “for fun” games as well. And in that setting, a lot of things go that wouldn’t have a place in a steamroller event. Common sense should imply that!

However, with regard to the “indy scene”, I would make the argument that it is so strong in GW circles for two reasons. The first is lack of company support. GW don’t do tournaments. GW offer very little in terms of tourneys, leagues, campaigns etc. in other words, its up to the community to do things. and everyone wants something a bit different. GW is somewhat “directionless” in terms of what it tries to be. It appeals to a huge variety of people, and everyone wants something a bit different. That in itself encourages the indy scene.
With PP, it’s a smaller company, a smaller player base (but growing), and its more “focused” in terms of “this is what the game is about”. A lot of people migrated over to playing PP games (and staying there) for a reason. PP as a company offer fantastic company support, frequent leagues (with league exclusive models too!), once-off events, and campaigns, all with prize support. To an extent, I feel there is less of a “desire” for Indy space, because for a lot of us, the game simply gives us what we want. That said, there is an Indy scene. PP are generally always running new formats for their games – “who’s the boss” is one (your commander is randomly assigned). A recent one is a “random spell list” format where everyone’s casters’ spells are randomly assigned. In terms of the community, I’ve seen my share of community projects, and formats – for example, cage match games, or games where caster kill won’t end the game. There are members of the community that will want, design, and push new scenario/format ideas.

 zlayer77 wrote:

I'm going to try to make you understand what i mean. PPs miniatures are not that fun to convert, there is no real need to do so, they come finished out of the box. Identical posing is also a boring thing, and PP has a lot of that both with their plastic kits and Troops. And it doesn't get me excited as a painter, so i just slap on some paint and put them on the table. I know a lot of people that feel the same way. It is better to keep them as is for easy identification and putting axes on stuff that uses swords? why? I don't get it? Conversion for me is sticking to what the Miniature is not changing it putting more weapons on it, or changing weapon loadouts, that is just silly. A good conversion in my Book is when you stick so close to the original miniature that everyone that sees it knows what it is and what it does. The fun thing about creating your own paint paint schemes and well converted miniature is just not there for me with privateer press stuff sorry.

I appreciate you taking the time to try and explain your position. Unfortunately, and I say this with respect, its not one I can agree with.
I disagree that their miniatures are not fun to convert - they're metal. its an unforvinging medium, and while its harder to physically modify than plastic, a little elbow grease and a wee bit of hard work goes a long way, i find. And while there is no real "need" to convert, there is a desire to do it. for personal enjoyment, or whatever.

Why put axes on doom reavers? Because it’s fun. Because it adds to my enjoyment of the model, and my ability to field it. It doesn’t change a doom reaver, or stop it being one. With respect, whats not to get. There is no source material specifying what fellblades actually are, beyond possessed weapons. And for what it’s worth, conversion implies changing things!

 zlayer77 wrote:

Same goes for the lore, It just doesn't click for me. I also feel that most of the armies are all over the place. The central themes are not good enough and most of them feel like a mess. For example Menoth, half the army is holy paladin knights, but then we have shaolin monks, Jihad bedouins with bombs, Native hunters of some sort.. it is just all over the place...

Not really. You say “All over the place” and I say “inspired by multiple sources”. I’ll further argue those sources often compliment each other. Whats wrong with menoth? You’ve got the zealous, uncontrollable fiery mob elements of a passionate, fiery, dogmatic people, the elite temple warriors and their conscripted native skirmishers. Seems like something that could have happened during something like the Crusades. If anything, I’m glad that they’re not just “one idea” that is repeated over and over again. I’m glad there isn’t a straight up “norse faction”, for example, for this reason. There is norse imagery, but its spread throughout all the factions. Sprinkled here and there. If you ask me, it adds more character. Real life is rarely simple, homogenous or based on a single idea. There will be competing, contrasting and comparable themes running in every culture and nation we have here.

 zlayer77 wrote:

Same goes for Circle, The Warbeasts are all over the place, half are constructs, the other half is a mix of wolfs, birds, dogs and satyrs(why satyrs in the middle of this.... don't get it) and then we have the Gorax who is the odd man out and don't fit in at all. Among the troops we have Ravager tribes mixed with druids and hunters... and then we have the skinwalkers, who go well with the Wolf warbeasts.. and ofc construct troops... But when I put everything togheter it is just a broken mix of 5 different themes.

Gorax is the Iron Kingdoms version of an Ogre. First up, Skinwalkers and Wolves of Orboros are from the same group. The Tharn are what got me into the Circle. Cannibalistic celts, essentially worshipping the ultimate predator. And then the druid overlords. The druids are the masters of the faction, and whether they manipulate stone or flesh, they’re bending it to their will. It makes sense that the druidic manipulators would impress them into their schemes.
Whats wrong with multiple types of warbeast? Not everything needs to be built off the same chassis. And in any case, Druids master the wilds. It makes sense (at least to me!) that they control multiple breeds of beast. If anything, I’d argue that it makes sense thematically that the druids would be able to control, direct and manipulate all these different elements. Real life armies are rarely homogenous.

 zlayer77 wrote:

Khador is another example.. Base army is Mother Russia inspired cossacks. But then we throw in Gladiators with swords with screaming skulls Why?? they just don't fit the rest of the army. the list goes on and on and on but no Faction in Warmachine/Hordes has a clean good design that appeals too me sorry...

Why? Greylord researched orgoth tech. it helps represent both the “dark side” of the khadoran warmachine, as well as the “life is cheap” and “we are utterly ruthless” motif of the Khadoran military machine. It also showcases some of the dark history of the iron Kingdoms. I fell in love with Khador as a faction because of Doom Reavers. At the end of the day, they’re penal troops. Imperial Guard do it with penal legions, here’s khador’s version. I like the fact that Khador is so varied – its not just “one thing”, or “one idea”. It’s a smorgasbord of different themes and ideas – it makes it seem more “real”. Khador isn’t just “Russians”. Fluffwise, it’s a mix of the horselords to the east, and the settled communities led by the great princes to the west. All empire builders. I like that the faction offers such variety - steam powered armour, heavy infantry, conscript infantry, and militia, guerrilla regulars, guerrilla irregulars, fast cavalry, heavy cavalry, and its all backed up with dark, cruel, sinister magic wielders who are quite happy to inflict demon-posessed swords on their prisoners. Again, you can boil it down to a number of core themes that compliment each other – basic backbone infantry of the winter guard, the elite/specialist cadres (widowmakers, iron fang types, power armoured corps), and the irregular elements (kossites, manhunters, kayazy etc) and other special elements (greylords covenant, doom reavers etc) It makes it feel like a real army.

 zlayer77 wrote:

If you compare this to the clean design of say a Space marine Chapter or a Tyranid swarm. it just doesn't match up for me. I do not get the WoW effect I need to get exited about painting or converting armies. I do not get exited about painting armies that from the start do not make any sense. Sadly PPs armies makes zero sense sorry...

You can say clean, I’ll respond by saying “one dimensional”. Space Marines with pelts, Space Marines with dresses, Space Marines with spikes, Mongol Space Marines, Blood Space Marines etc. Constantly the same thing, constantly (almost) the same statline, same rules, allways the same, or near-identikit themes just constantly recycled, and all just with slightly different bling. Yawn!
I’ll respect your opinion that you feel they don’t make sense, but I strongly disagree with you.

 zlayer77 wrote:

Now keep in mind I only play Warmachine/Hordes, it is the only game I play about 2-3 times a week. But I do not play it for the lore or the miniatures design because for me they just don't do anything. I play it for the rules, I also like to play chess And there is zero lore there, you do not need lore, you just need a good Balance game system to have fun. But from a hobby perspective I sadly get little thrills from Warmachine/hordes...We are about 12 people in my club and about 90% of us share this assessment of the game, we don't care about the lore or the miniatures but in the end the rules system and Balanced game play is more important then what the gak you put on the table looks like.... But I do think that if PP got better at Army's visual construction, and got some central themes and made better kits with more options(that made sense), that they would really dominate the Table-top market.. What they have now is some of the best rules I have played.. but that is about it...

And with respect, I’ll repeat what I’ve said earlier. You’re saying this without exploring any of the world, its culture, read its fiction or its history. When all you do is “play the game” you’re going to be disconnected from everything else going on. And there is a lot there. I’m serious. Don’t just think of it as a game – there is a lot more to check out. With respect, i find with any activity, you'll only ever get out of it what you're willing to put in. if its "just a game" to you, (as it seems to be) and you only ever treat it as such it will never be more than that. And i'm not saying this in a bad way. But until you explore the world, read the fluff, fiction and histories, you will never see it as anything other than pewter pieces on a board.

Regardless, have fun!

 Flashman wrote:
Not sure what this thread is about...

For me? Ridicule mostly.

 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:
Extremely well-written ruleset, highly balanced, large community and heavy development and notoriety.

Pfft! Chess apologist. Everyone knows queens are broken.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:
Extremely well-written ruleset, highly balanced, large community and heavy development and notoriety.

Pfft! Chess apologist. Everyone knows queens are broken.

Nah, it's the white side that's truly broken. They always go first.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:
Extremely well-written ruleset, highly balanced, large community and heavy development and notoriety.

Pfft! Chess apologist. Everyone knows queens are broken.

Nah, it's the white side that's truly broken. They always go first.

Spoken like a true WAAC black side player.

Just WOW! It's greedy to own 5 armies? I think I'm sitting at about 11 at the minute for various systems. I must have a greed gland bigger than the moon. Or wait. Could it be that I'm totally entitled to spend my hard earned on whatever I damned well please?

Some folks spend £200+ on an item of clothing. I have friends who have spent £10000 on a watch. I have about 8 guitars, despite the fact I only 'need' one. Whatever folks choose to spend their money on, who gets to decide arbitrarily what the measurement of greed is? Certainly not a random person on the internet with an axe to grind...

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:
Extremely well-written ruleset, highly balanced, large community and heavy development and notoriety.

Pfft! Chess apologist. Everyone knows queens are broken.

Nah, it's the white side that's truly broken. They always go first.

Spoken like a true WAAC black side player.

The red side has the advantage of seeing white's opening move - and has just a little more information to work off of.

Balance is close - but, if I remember properly, red does win ever so slightly more often than white. (Anyone else remember that red used to be the black side? )

The Auld Grump, who is nowhere near enough to old enough...

This thread smells like bridge and is filled with win. It's good to see that 40k vs WM got stirred into this pot as well. That's a great and fresh discussion. At least the title is pretty accurate.

 TheAuldGrump wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:
Extremely well-written ruleset, highly balanced, large community and heavy development and notoriety.

Pfft! Chess apologist. Everyone knows queens are broken.

Nah, it's the white side that's truly broken. They always go first.

Spoken like a true WAAC black side player.

The red side has the advantage of seeing white's opening move - and has just a little more information to work off of.

Balance is close - but, if I remember properly, red does win ever so slightly more often than white. (Anyone else remember that red used to be the black side? )

The Auld Grump, who is nowhere near enough to old enough...

Pffft. Game was completely ruined when they switched to Mad Queen rules. And Bring Back Viziers!

So, has anyone ever adopted a new game because someone told them that it was superior to their current game, which was only played by idiots? Anyone at all?

I'm asking this as a PP fanboy--please lay off the evangelism, it doesn't do anything good.

Deadnight wrote:

DarkTraveler777 wrote:
It was a rhetorical question. If you have to inform a player that they will need to buy completely redundant models, and in my example above (and piggy backing off of Platuan4th's examples of converted armies) that would amount to an entirely redundant army being necessary just so a player can "safely" play in tournaments.

Granted, as most people have experienced, TO's generally don't throw up much of a fuss about conversions, but if you are being honest about PP's policies and being upfront with new players who want to convert, then you do have to stress the possibility of their lovingly converted army being disqualified at official events due to the whims of a TO.

That just isn't a friendly atmosphere for conversions, no matter how often the rules are bent in a converter's favor. The fact that the rules exist at all is a discouragement, especially for army-wide thematic conversions that may require a second "official" army for tournament play.

With respect, I think you’re exaggerating, especially the part about needing an entire redundant army. While it’s not an open book in terms of “what goes”, it’s a simple matter of being smart about how you go about your converting. Could a TO disqualify your stuff? Well, maybe. But probably not, if it’s a decent conversion. Remember, they’re gamers too. In the case of Space Marines standing in for Iron Fangs, “because you prefer the model”, I’ll side with the TO in saying “No”. if you’ve got plate wearing historical figures, I’d argue no – again, iron Fangs have a very distinctive “look” with their shoulder pads. If it’s a “barbarian” themed army, and your Iron Fangs are all converted so each wears a wolf pelt, and with a brass rodded piston spear, you’ll be fine. I’ve got my iron Fang sergeant converted to be wielding a spear in his left hand/shield in his right (in other words, the opposite from regular models), and I used Space Marine arms to do it, with the IF shoulder pads glued and pinned on the shoulders. I’ve never had anyone raise an issue. If your Manhunter is running around bare chested – cool! If your Ogrun Bokur is converted to be an Iron Fang themed Bokur with an appropriate shield, spear and armour, you’ll get no issues. If your doomreavers are doomreavers from the waist up, and iron fangs from the waist down, its (a) obvious what they are, and (b) a pretty neat conversion. If your Warpwolf uses some different parts for a different pose (I’ve seen a ghetorix conversion using the satyr body – it was legal as most of the parts came from the ghetorix/warpwolf kit), you’ll be fine. Regarding the “weapon type” argument - How about models armed with weapons with vague nomenclature – like Champions armed with “hand weapons”? I have a squad of doomreavers converted to be axe wielders (they’re officially armed with “fellblades”, and I got around it since axes are bladed weapons. It doesn’t specify anywhere doom reavers “must have swords”.) I’m sure you could do a Druss the Legend conversion of Butcher, and convert Lola to Snaga, and give him a greenstuffed beard and Druss’ distinctive helmet, shoulder and arm guards. Again, there is design space. And so on. There have been some amazing army conversions that have been fully legal (stormhammer:assault on sul, cryxnar, revenge of scyrah themed cryx/goreshade army) and some amazingly converted models that have gotten thumbs up, all round.
I wouldn’t say it’s not a friendly atmosphere – that’s disingenuous. PP often do a conversion corner, run painting, and conversion competitions. Recently in NQ they did a big splurge on a guy’s pirate themed trollblood army. And yes, it was obviously doomshaper, but all pirated up with monkeys, peg legs, pirate hat, parrot, eye patch and a treasure chest. He was going the whole hog iirc and making a while army in the same vein.
I disagree with you when you say it’s a discouragement. You just need to be smart, and reasonable about it.

I am not exaggerating so much as showing a major flaw in the workaround players use to justify PP's conversion policy. Having the official model as a back up might be fine if you are only converting one model in your army but if you are doing a fully converted army that solution becomes less tenable because you would essentially need an official model for each converted model in your army; meaning you'd need an entire second army waiting in the wings just in case you run afoul of a strict TO. That isn't a viable solution to me. Even if it is a rarity (strict TO), I don't think you can be honest with a new player, present them with their options regarding PP's conversion policy, and not expect some criticism at the potential problems that policy creates for converters.

And let's be clear. Taking some troll models and adding peg legs, pirate hats, and monkeys is very different from taking models from a different faction, or even a different model range, and making a "counts as" army. It is very different.

 Elemental wrote:
So, has anyone ever adopted a new game because someone told them that it was superior to their current game, which was only played by idiots? Anyone at all?

I'm asking this as a PP fanboy--please lay off the evangelism, it doesn't do anything good.

I think that would be the most extreme way to dissuade someone from playing a game you want them to play. So in my opinion, no not at all.

I mostly started playing Warmachine because I found a place near me and I had some of the miniatures already. Otherwise I might still be playing 40k and Fantasy still but a little less as a gradually got into Warmahordes since I had little funds to start it up fully at the time.

Tyranno wrote:
The people who blame GW for everything.

If you have five 40K armies despite that meaning you only use each 1/5th as often as if you only had a single arm - and, technically, spending hundreds of dollars to reduce what you're getting from what you've already got -, you probably shouldn't be complaining about GW prices. They didn;t make you purchase an extra four armies. Probably shouldn't be suggesting any greed is solely GW either.

Sorry Tyranno, but complaining about the complainers is just silly. I never quite understood the people who hold on the 2nd edition as if it is the greatest thing ever, but to each there own.

As someone who has 11 armies after collecting for a good 27 years (and built and sold off another 1.5 times that many armies), I still have just as much right to complain about GW prices as anyone else. In fact having started at the beginning I have watched the constant price increases, like those early on where blister prices only went up by $1, but they went from have 5 models in the blister to only 3 all the way up to today's inflation busting price increases every time a new kit comes out. It has just gotten silly and if I, single again after having been married for 12 years or so, with no kids and with a suitably comfortable income, am starting to feel the prices are a bit crazy, then they probably are.

It also isn't really any of your business if the person complaining about the prices TODAY has 10 armies or no armies at home. The prices are STILL ludicrous and have left inflation way behind in the dust. I haven't gotten a new friend to start an army for the game in going on 5+ years now. That is just painfully sad. All of them have the same reaction: Wow that game looks awesome! Then they pick up the rulebook, a codex and start looking at the prices on the unit boxes and calculating how many of them they will need to play and everything goes back on the shelf while they laugh. This used to be a game where every week a new friend would jump in and start an army. Getting harder and harder to convince anyone to take that plunge.

GW management is very greedy now. They just keep pumping up the prices to keep their stock prices solid so that they can put more and more money in the bank. It is sad because Jervis and company writing the rules and designing the miniatures really do seem to love the products they produce. Sure their ideas of direction aren't always the same as ours, but they are still there for the joy of doing it.

Skriker


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Elemental wrote:
So, has anyone ever adopted a new game because someone told them that it was superior to their current game, which was only played by idiots? Anyone at all?

I'm asking this as a PP fanboy--please lay off the evangelism, it doesn't do anything good.

For anyone who shouts to the hills that the "well known to be unbalanced and poorly written game that is the only game they play" is the best set of rules out there, I suggest they try some other games for some perspective. Not my job to convince them to play, though if people ask for suggestions for things to try I will happily give them. The easiest way to convince people to do something is to tell them not too. So tell people they are idiots for playing any particular game and they will just want to play it more.

Skriker

 TheAuldGrump wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:
Extremely well-written ruleset, highly balanced, large community and heavy development and notoriety.

Pfft! Chess apologist. Everyone knows queens are broken.

Nah, it's the white side that's truly broken. They always go first.

Spoken like a true WAAC black side player.

The red side has the advantage of seeing white's opening move - and has just a little more information to work off of.

Balance is close - but, if I remember properly, red does win ever so slightly more often than white. (Anyone else remember that red used to be the black side? )

The Auld Grump, who is nowhere near enough to old enough...

No, White wins between 52-56% of games.

However, the difference is small and easily rectified in a match format.

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:

I am not exaggerating so much as showing a major flaw in the workaround players use to justify PP's conversion policy. Having the official model as a back up might be fine if you are only converting one model in your army but if you are doing a fully converted army that solution becomes less tenable because you would essentially need an official model for each converted model in your army; meaning you'd need an entire second army waiting in the wings just in case you run afoul of a strict TO. That isn't a viable solution to me. Even if it is a rarity (strict TO), I don't think you can be honest with a new player, present them with their options regarding PP's conversion policy, and not expect some criticism at the potential problems that policy creates for converters.

That's two massive 'if's mate. You're talking about someone (a) having what amounts to an entirely proxy army, and (b) going up against a strict to. You even define it yourself as a rarity, and justify that as showing a major flaw - I dont buy it.Having a back up model is only needed for those corner case models you're not sure about.

Again, be smart, and reasonable about your conversions and you'll be fine. It's not hard.

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:

And let's be clear. Taking some troll models and adding peg legs, pirate hats, and monkeys is very different from taking models from a different faction, or even a different model range, and making a "counts as" army. It is very different.

http://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?98-Stormhammer-the-Assault-on-Sul
http://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?53190-Cryx-nar-an-epic-conversion-adventure

I rest my case.

Here's two guys taking models from one faction, using them as another faction, and yet despite this, they're making their armies entirely tournament legal,even by the strict demands of pp's conversion policy. I don't know what to tell you mate, bar put a bit of thought into your conversions, and you'll be fine.

I love the whole wysiwyg argument against PP. In PP there are no weapon swaps, therefore wysiwyg is not an issue in any case bar tournaments and then only so your opponent knows exactly what each mini is at a glance.

 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:

 TheAuldGrump wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:
Extremely well-written ruleset, highly balanced, large community and heavy development and notoriety.

Pfft! Chess apologist. Everyone knows queens are broken.

Nah, it's the white side that's truly broken. They always go first.

Spoken like a true WAAC black side player.

The red side has the advantage of seeing white's opening move - and has just a little more information to work off of.

Balance is close - but, if I remember properly, red does win ever so slightly more often than white. (Anyone else remember that red used to be the black side? )

The Auld Grump, who is nowhere near enough to old enough...

No, White wins between 52-56% of games.

However, the difference is small and easily rectified in a match format.

Apparently that is relatively new* - back in the eighteen hundreds and before it was red that held the advantage - the tactics of the game have changed since then. (But I had to look it up - the only reason that I knew that red used to have the advantage was from Lewis Carrol, which is fair enough - he was also put the term 'red side' in my head...)

The Auld Grump

*in a game so old that a hundred and fifty years can be considered 'relatively new'.... To say that my information was out of date is to stretch the limits of understatement....

 Elemental wrote:
So, has anyone ever adopted a new game because someone told them that it was superior to their current game, which was only played by idiots? Anyone at all?
I'm asking this as a PP fanboy--please lay off the evangelism, it doesn't do anything good.

I've tried a new game because people told me it was good. X-Wing for example. I don't recall ever being told the other games I enjoy being gak really helping to sell the recommendation, though.

 Elemental wrote:
So, has anyone ever adopted a new game because someone told them that it was superior to their current game, which was only played by idiots? Anyone at all?

Not that I've seen. At least not by anyone who wasn't already disenchanted with their current game. I've got no problem trying to help folks find a game they will enjoy, even if it means dissuading them from other games. There's really no point in trying to convince someone to give up a game they enjoy. Why would you want too?

That said, I don't see too much of this kind of extreme behavior. Lots of bickering over whose game is better, but that's just the internet. I don't see many folks really trying to get someone to quit their current game unless they ask for a new one.

Bullockist wrote:
I love the whole wysiwyg argument against PP. In PP there are no weapon swaps, therefore wysiwyg is not an issue in any case bar tournaments and then only so your opponent knows exactly what each mini is at a glance.

Lack of variety and customization would make me sad.

Agreed. I've started and stopped Warmachine many times because, even though some of the sculpts are great, I was turned off by the lack of customization. I think Warhammer lends itself to more creative and personal armies model-wise.

 Swan-of-War wrote:
Agreed. I've started and stopped Warmachine many times because, even though some of the sculpts are great, I was turned off by the lack of customization. I think Warhammer lends itself to more creative and personal armies model-wise.

I think you're right.

I play 40K as something to do with the minis I've painted, I don't play Warmahordes because I've yet to find enough models/a faction that I want to own and paint. Contrast that to a friend who binned 40K for Warmachine, who plays competitively (I don't) and whose attitude could be summarised as painting is something he has to do in order to get his armies ready for gaming.

I have no axe to grind against Warmachine, I've played a few games with borrowed minis, and it's fun enough, but I spend a good 4-5 hours a week painting, whereas I spend maybe 2 hours gaming, so my armies all tend to evolve from a modelling/painting perspective first, and I just don't get inspired by PP stuff the same way (although I do lean heavily on third party stuff, I don't get inspired by GW as much these days either, but I do feel it is easier to incorporate 3rd party stuff into GW armies.)

 azreal13 wrote:

 Swan-of-War wrote:
Agreed. I've started and stopped Warmachine many times because, even though some of the sculpts are great, I was turned off by the lack of customization. I think Warhammer lends itself to more creative and personal armies model-wise.

I think you're right.

I play 40K as something to do with the minis I've painted, I don't play Warmahordes because I've yet to find enough models/a faction that I want to own and paint. Contrast that to a friend who binned 40K for Warmachine, who plays competitively (I don't) and whose attitude could be summarised as painting is something he has to do in order to get his armies ready for gaming.

I have no axe to grind against Warmachine, I've played a few games with borrowed minis, and it's fun enough, but I spend a good 4-5 hours a week painting, whereas I spend maybe 2 hours gaming, so my armies all tend to evolve from a modelling/painting perspective first, and I just don't get inspired by PP stuff the same way (although I do lean heavily on third party stuff, I don't get inspired by GW as much these days either, but I do feel it is easier to incorporate 3rd party stuff into GW armies.)

I'm in that camp as well. The majority of my 40K related purchases since the last IG Codex have been Vic Lamb or Col Gravis parts. They've allowed me to breathe new life and keep interest going in my IG army.

Deadnight wrote:

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:

I am not exaggerating so much as showing a major flaw in the workaround players use to justify PP's conversion policy. Having the official model as a back up might be fine if you are only converting one model in your army but if you are doing a fully converted army that solution becomes less tenable because you would essentially need an official model for each converted model in your army; meaning you'd need an entire second army waiting in the wings just in case you run afoul of a strict TO. That isn't a viable solution to me. Even if it is a rarity (strict TO), I don't think you can be honest with a new player, present them with their options regarding PP's conversion policy, and not expect some criticism at the potential problems that policy creates for converters.

That's two massive 'if's mate. You're talking about someone (a) having what amounts to an entirely proxy army, and (b) going up against a strict to. You even define it yourself as a rarity, and justify that as showing a major flaw - I dont buy it.Having a back up model is only needed for those corner case models you're not sure about.

Again, be smart, and reasonable about your conversions and you'll be fine. It's not hard.

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:

And let's be clear. Taking some troll models and adding peg legs, pirate hats, and monkeys is very different from taking models from a different faction, or even a different model range, and making a "counts as" army. It is very different.

http://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?98-Stormhammer-the-Assault-on-Sul
http://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?53190-Cryx-nar-an-epic-conversion-adventure

I rest my case.

Here's two guys taking models from one faction, using them as another faction, and yet despite this, they're making their armies entirely tournament legal,even by the strict demands of pp's conversion policy. I don't know what to tell you mate, bar put a bit of thought into your conversions, and you'll be fine.

Your case rests on the arbitrary judgements of TOs. For me that is a risk too great to take with the costs of an army and I don't think I am alone in that mindset.

 azreal13 wrote:

I have no axe to grind against Warmachine, I've played a few games with borrowed minis, and it's fun enough, but I spend a good 4-5 hours a week painting, whereas I spend maybe 2 hours gaming, so my armies all tend to evolve from a modelling/painting perspective first, and I just don't get inspired by PP stuff the same way (although I do lean heavily on third party stuff, I don't get inspired by GW as much these days either, but I do feel it is easier to incorporate 3rd party stuff into GW armies.)

Different strokes and all that. I tend to spend 10+ hours a week(2-3 hours evey night not including weekends) painting vs 2-3 hours a month playing and I find Warmachine figures more enjoyable to paint than GW's. GW's stuff tends to be pretty uninspiring these days bar their larger kits.

For those in the hobby primarily for modeling, I think you should buy what you like the looks of and not worry about game rules as much. I am an advocate for PP and pretty critical of GW, but I can respect people saying they like GW more because of the models and the fact they support more customization.

Heck, I hate the rules right now, but I'd buy some more models if they didn't cost about twice as much as I'm willing to pay for them. The Hellbrute is a good model, only problem is I would pay $25 for it after discounts, putting it at $30 MSRP, not $54. I'd even consider buying a new army for when the rules eventually did change, but not at $800+.

 Platuan4th wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:

I have no axe to grind against Warmachine, I've played a few games with borrowed minis, and it's fun enough, but I spend a good 4-5 hours a week painting, whereas I spend maybe 2 hours gaming, so my armies all tend to evolve from a modelling/painting perspective first, and I just don't get inspired by PP stuff the same way (although I do lean heavily on third party stuff, I don't get inspired by GW as much these days either, but I do feel it is easier to incorporate 3rd party stuff into GW armies.)

Different strokes and all that. I tend to spend 10+ hours a week(2-3 hours evey night not including weekends) painting vs 2-3 hours a month playing and I find Warmachine figures more enjoyable to paint than GW's. GW's stuff tends to be pretty uninspiring these days bar their larger kits.

Oh, outside of the troops choices (which, in most cases are reasonable value) I don't actually paint much GW proper, but I deliberately started daemons because it was very easy to cherry pick models from the likes of Mierce etc as Princes, GDs and Heralds. The only bona fide GW stuff (as opposed to FW) I have painted recently (except lesser daemons) have been Bloodcrushers because I think they're ace.

Can't get behind PP stuff, the aesthetic generally does nothing for me, and I generally enjoy painting larger models. I do keep an eye in releases though, and if they do release stuff I like, I won't hesitate to grab a small force. Some of the recent stuff in previews has looked cool though, so it might not be long before that happens.