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The "Lysander-lite" build seems to be the new default choice for SM players. Biggest decision seems to be regarding whether to pair him with bikers or honor guard.

At a minimum of 230 points he is too expensive for my taste, so what are some sub-200 or even sub-150 point alternative HQs?

I've made use of AA/Relic Blade/Primarch's Wrath, +/- SS and/or Jump Pack/Bike.

I like just AA and Relic Blade.

 obsidiankatana wrote:
I've made use of AA/Relic Blade/Primarch's Wrath, +/- SS and/or Jump Pack/Bike.

The Relic Blade gives you a really mediocre liability, and with 4++ no EW he's going to evaporate if instant death weapons are pointed at him. Its Murphy's Law, that once they get that single instant death AP3/AP2 wound you're going to fail that 4++.

I've lost count of the number of times I've been the one to kill Captains that way. The last time It happened a 100 point Veteran Squad had a meltagun hit that completely wiped out a Terminator Chapter Master with power sword, storm bolter from full wounds in turn 2 of a tournament game. Had that CM passed the invuln or survived I would have easily lost that entire squad and many more Guardsmen in the ensuing turns.

The Primarch's Wrath is probably the single most overrated weapon in the Relic Selection and probably the armoury, 20 points for barely over half a dead MEQ a turn, if you sit stationary (tantamount to suicide) is just garbage.

The Burning Blade, Power Fist and (Lightning Claw+ PF or TH and SE) are the only real sensible alternatives to the Thunder Hammer.

If you want the Cap/CM to actually be reliable, the Shield Eternal is mandatory, period. Instant death is way too big of a threat for your big expensive beatstick otherwise.

 Mr.Omega wrote:
The Relic Blade gives you a really mediocre liability

Loss of an extra attack I'm not going to have because I don't have 2 CCW?
It's a power maul with better AP and no possibility for an extra attack. If I'm not giving him a pistol, it's literally a power maul with better AP. AP3 is worth 10 points to me.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Mr.Omega wrote:
The Relic Blade gives you a really mediocre liability

Loss of an extra attack I'm not going to have because I don't have 2 CCW?
It's a power maul with better AP and no possibility for an extra attack. If I'm not giving him a pistol, it's literally a power maul with better AP. AP3 is worth 10 points to me.

Except you'd have to be insane to take a naff 15 point power weapon on a 90/130 point base beatstick. Were they not listed once for everyone, I'd completely cross out the entry.

Especially if its a power maul. A shinier turd is still a turd nonetheless.

 Mr.Omega wrote:

 obsidiankatana wrote:
I've made use of AA/Relic Blade/Primarch's Wrath, +/- SS and/or Jump Pack/Bike.

The Relic Blade gives you a really mediocre liability, and with 4++ no EW he's going to evaporate if instant death weapons are pointed at him. Its Murphy's Law, that once they get that single instant death AP3/AP2 wound you're going to fail that 4++.

I've lost count of the number of times I've been the one to kill Captains that way. The last time It

happened a 100 point Veteran Squad had a meltagun hit that completely wiped out a Terminator Chapter Master with power sword, storm bolter from full wounds in turn 2 of a tournament game. Had that CM passed the invuln or survived I would have easily lost that entire squad and many more Guardsmen in the ensuing turns.

The Primarch's Wrath is probably the single most overrated weapon in the Relic Selection and probably the armoury, 20 points for barely over half a dead MEQ a turn, if you sit stationary (tantamount to suicide) is just garbage.

The Burning Blade, Power Fist and (Lightning Claw+ PF or TH and SE) are the only real sensible alternatives to the Thunder Hammer.

If you want the Cap/CM to actually be reliable, the Shield Eternal is mandatory, period. Instant death is way too big of a threat for your big expensive beatstick otherwise.

In your opinion even a standard storm shield is not protection enough?

I see the value of EW but it starts this cascade effect where you have to upgrade again and again to justify the unit.

I mean, is a stock Captain with a power sword really that bad of a choice, compared to other HQs out there?
Barely more than a 100 points seems like a bargain.

Maybe the game is just more focused on Herohammer than I am aware of.

At 150-160pts, my usual low-point Captain build is by no means a bullet-magnet threat, and definitely not one to warrant an AP2 Str8 shot. He sits with a squad of Sternguard, usually. Or tac marines if I'm not running Sternguard, and doubles as an assault deterrent and a boost to the assault capabilities of the traditionally terrible tac marines.

I take the relic blade so I wound on 2's and not 4's, straight up. I take the Primarch's Wrath so I can make a legitimate contribution to shooting rather than a token shot.

It is FAR from the optimal build, but it does what I need to. Breeds a TAC HQ that can sit in most squads and not be a waste of points. In my most recent game against IG he and a squad of tac marines went rampaging through some trenches during which he killed both a Lord Commissar and Company Commander.

A relic blade and a bolter, and maybe artificer armour. stick him with some troops (add a bike if your bringing them) after st 6 ap3 in 4, he'll have a decent shot at challenges, or kick rear in combat, as long as its not that durable of a unit.

The cheap protection against S8 instant death is a bike. A biker captain with nothing else lets you take scoring bikes, instantly making himself worthwhile. Add a bit more to him and you have a guy that's cheap enough his loss isn't game breaking.

Mavnas wrote:
The cheap protection against S8 instant death is a bike. A biker captain with nothing else lets you take scoring bikes, instantly making himself worthwhile. Add a bit more to him and you have a guy that's cheap enough his loss isn't game breaking.

As an Eldar player who runs a stock Wraithknight, I would drop 100 points off my own list to see a Captain/Chapter Master without a Shield Eternal. S10 is very easy for Eldar to get, along with other weapons that just cause ID (Shard of Anaris, D-scythes, etc.) and with all the Eldar in the current meta, I don't think the T5 from the bike is enough.

I don't think hes going for anything tourney worthy, just not supidly sucky.

 Commander_Nightflier wrote:
I don't think hes going for anything tourney worthy, just not supidly sucky.

So a tournament valid HQ has to be 200+ points?

 minigun762 wrote:

So a tournament valid HQ has to be 200+ points?

For C:SM, usually yeah. Your other options pretty much boil down to Tigurius or possibly a squatting MotF, though even the latter of those two is questionable. Anything else is just going to be an army tax.

 obsidiankatana wrote:

 minigun762 wrote:

So a tournament valid HQ has to be 200+ points?

For C:SM, usually yeah. Your other options pretty much boil down to Tigurius or possibly a squatting MotF, though even the latter of those two is questionable. Anything else is just going to be an army tax.

Khan is under 200 points as well, but yeah the Chapter Master is already going to be pushing 200pts with what I would consider a bare bones loadout - Relic Blade, Artificer, Bike is 195. At that kind of point level you need to be covering all your bases not just some of them, you are well past the point of no return of being a cheap expendable HQ. The Shield is another 35 (functionally, 15 for the basic shield) and means there is literally nothing in the game that threatens you (and with the right weapon you can take on anything in the game as well).

I wouldn't worry too much about a few wk hits on a aa bike captain/cm. 2+ LOS and a 4+ invo/cover is good enough for government work. Keeping him cheap makes failed 2+ saves that he tanks for the unit less of a loss.

im running just a relic blade and a bolter and burying him in a tac squad. mostly for the Ld and Assault deturent. the only thing he doesnt threaten is +2 Armour or nice Invuln or CC oreinted Montrous creatures. at 125 hes not worth it to focus to get to him. a stray lascannon isnt gonna nip him till after the tacticals are gone

I once again lament the loss of the 30 pt Lieutenant and his 2 wound self as an option to lead a force.

Alas, alas.

Wakshaani wrote:
I once again lament the loss of the 30 pt Lieutenant and his 2 wound self as an option to lead a force.

Alas, alas.

I agree. Particularly in low point games, the overhead of bringing a SM HQ really cuts into what you can field. While you can have a bare-bones librarian, I’m not a huge fan thematically of them leading the troops.

Which CT are you using?

If you take a non-unique character CM to a tournament you're basically taking him for his CC prowess (if you're taking him for other reasons, please do tell)

If that's the case then you need to give some decent upgrades to make the most out of him. As mentioned above, you want your CM to stick around for a while and I agree that the Shield Eternal is essentially a must in that case.

There is no replacement or "cheap" substitute for Lysander. That's why he's unique. If you're looking for a cheaper HQ that's gonna hold his own in CC you gotta accept the fact that they can die fairly easily and in that case why not just take another even cheaper HQ like a libby or chaplain who will at least give a buff to one of your units?

I would argue that you only take a captain for the bike command squad and you only take a CM to create some sort of CC deathstar, otherwise you go for cheap: libby or a unique character that boost your army and CT.

Keep in mind that I'm assuming you're talking about a competitive environment.

 phoenix darkus wrote:
Which CT are you using?

If you take a non-unique character CM to a tournament you're basically taking him for his CC prowess (if you're taking him for other reasons, please do tell)

If that's the case then you need to give some decent upgrades to make the most out of him. As mentioned above, you want your CM to stick around for a while and I agree that the Shield Eternal is essentially a must in that case.

There is no replacement or "cheap" substitute for Lysander. That's why he's unique. If you're looking for a cheaper HQ that's gonna hold his own in CC you gotta accept the fact that they can die fairly easily and in that case why not just take another even cheaper HQ like a libby or chaplain who will at least give a buff to one of your units?

I would argue that you only take a captain for the bike command squad and you only take a CM to create some sort of CC deathstar, otherwise you go for cheap: libby or a unique character that boost your army and CT.

Keep in mind that I'm assuming you're talking about a competitive environment.

With the Lysander-lite comment, I was referring to the weapon loadout, Hammer, Shield and EW.

As far as the Captain vs Master, I guess I assume that 40 points is a significant difference and I'm always looking at ways to trim cost.

What about something like this
Captain, Storm Shield, Power Axe = 120 points
You still have your 3++ and your AP2. Yes you lose 2+ but you could argue it is less important if you only have 3 wounds anyway.

 Nevelon wrote:

Wakshaani wrote:
I once again lament the loss of the 30 pt Lieutenant and his 2 wound self as an option to lead a force.

Alas, alas.

I agree. Particularly in low point games, the overhead of bringing a SM HQ really cuts into what you can field. While you can have a bare-bones librarian, I’m not a huge fan thematically of them leading the troops.

Exactly! My old go-to was a Lt with a storm bolter. 35 points, did the job and did it well. Usually gave him a command squad full of storm bolters as well.

*grump*

You could always go with a chaplain and put him in a CC squad of some sort.

If you really want an beatstick chaptermaster WITH extra attack, go get clan raukaan supplement you get a. Gorgon chain, shield eternal that gives you +1 to FNP rolls as well as not taking a weaponslot and a bike.
Then put chaplain in a bike, command squad on bikes with apothecary and you got a chaptermaster with TH/LC T5 2+/3++ And with a bit of luck you can get wl trait that gives you extra +1 FNP roll for 3+ fnp
Altough you first lose the fnp boost whenyou take,wound then ew then 3++ but if you pass iwnd roll you get the previous lvl of the chain back the reason i repainted my black templars into ironhands

I am new to the game.... For the first year I tried to play with the cheap Captain / Chaplain setup with not much success against the newer Warlords / Chapter Master and TauDar...

Since the new SM codex I have been playing the Lysander Light / AA, TH, SE/SH Chapter Master and the difference in the game dynamic has been amazing.. I field him with a Jump Pack and run him around with either 5 Assault Marines or 5 Veterans depending on points and the impact has really helped!

Will I be the next toury winner... No... But Elder Wraithe Knights and Tau Riptides don't want anything to do with him.... LOL

Eternal warrior for the win!

Ed "Hibrass" Harley

If I remember I will post a pic of the custom figure my son put together for me based on a Sanguinary guard figure and other veteran bits with the BA emblems removed..

Hibrass wrote:
I am new to the game.... For the first year I tried to play with the cheap Captain / Chaplain setup with not much success against the newer Warlords / Chapter Master and TauDar...

Since the new SM codex I have been playing the Lysander Light / AA, TH, SE/SH Chapter Master and the difference in the game dynamic has been amazing.. I field him with a Jump Pack and run him around with either 5 Assault Marines or 5 Veterans depending on points and the impact has really helped!

Will I be the next toury winner... No... But Elder Wraithe Knights and Tau Riptides don't want anything to do with him.... LOL

Eternal warrior for the win!

Ed "Hibrass" Harley

If I remember I will post a pic of the custom figure my son put together for me based on a Sanguinary guard figure and other veteran bits with the BA emblems removed..

I love these kind of posts, bring the real world results to the discussion. I find those very helpful.

Hopefully if I did this right.... Attached is my Chapter Master in progressed based on a Sanguinary Guard figure..

Enjoy,

Ed

Assuming you take a storm shield, do you think that a:
Single lightning claw
Or
Relic blade
Or
Teeth of terra

Is the best value choice?

S6 gives a lot of utility vs Shred, which diminishes the value of thr claw.

 minigun762 wrote:
Assuming you take a storm shield, do you think that a:
Single lightning claw
Or
Relic blade
Or
Teeth of terra

Is the best value choice?

S6 gives a lot of utility vs Shred, which diminishes the value of thr claw.

ToT vs Relic Blade depends on what squad your HQ is sitting in, I'd say.

 obsidiankatana wrote:

 minigun762 wrote:
Assuming you take a storm shield, do you think that a:
Single lightning claw
Or
Relic blade
Or
Teeth of terra

Is the best value choice?

S6 gives a lot of utility vs Shred, which diminishes the value of thr claw.

ToT vs Relic Blade depends on what squad your HQ is sitting in, I'd say.

Assume a non-dedicated assault unit, like Sternguard or Tac Marines.