Xerics wrote:
Well if someone would actually use kroot and vespid maybe I'd know but as it stands everyone who plays Tau plays cookie cutter Tau. Triptide with eldar allies or O'Veasa Star with Pathfinders for markerlights and broadsides with smart missile systems. Army sound familiar maybe? What about Eldar (and I play eldar mind you) ? Serpent Spam and Jetseer council are the only ways to go if you want to win. Tank Spam Guard. White Scars Bikers. Necron Wraith Star. Demon Screamerstar. Doesn't anyone play anything original or is everyone a bunch of mindless zombies playing the same list tournament playes use and at the same point values even. I'd like to see one of you naysayers play a 7000 point game and put up a battle report on it. I'm willing to bet alot of people can't even get to 7000 points because they buy exactly enough models for 2000 points because thats what tournaments are playing. 2000 points is a skirmish. warhammer should be "In the grim darkness of the far future there is only skirmishes." because nobody plays war anymore. A war isn't 3 tanks a handful of infintry and a MC here and there. A war should look like lines of guardians with jetbike support. Air cover from the skies from at least 6 Crimson Hunters. 5 falcons 8 wave seprents 5 Fire Prisms. Large groups of wraithguard, a few wraithknights and wraithlords with warwalker support fire. a few squads of Fire Dragons, Striking Scorpions, banshees and maybe a troupe of harlequins, backed up by 3 Scorpion Superheavy Grav tanks, 4 towering destroyer knight titans, 2 Revenant Scout titans and a Phantom in the background all led by a farseer council, all the phoenix lords, The Avatar of Khaine and as many Special Characters the Eldar can muster to be there. thats a warhost. Not this measly 2000 points crap of "Oh Escalation/Apocalypse/Stronghold Assault isn't in the BRB so we aren't gunna play it" crap.

 azreal13 wrote:
The core of 40K is a skirmish game for 10-20 models a side, designed by Rick Priestley in the early 80s.


The core issue it encounters to this day from an issue of playability are largely derived from the fact it is still, in many ways, essentially, the same game, but force fed steroids to turn it into the bloated lump it is now to sustain higher model counts and drive model sales.

A 7000 point game of 40K sounds like hell. Apocalypse only works because D weapons allow the removal of huge numbers of models at a time, and even then a 7K game could conceivably take two days to play.

 Xerics wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:
The core of 40K is a skirmish game for 10-20 models a side, designed by Rick Priestley in the early 80s.


The core issue it encounters to this day from an issue of playability are largely derived from the fact it is still, in many ways, essentially, the same game, but force fed steroids to turn it into the bloated lump it is now to sustain higher model counts and drive model sales.

A 7000 point game of 40K sounds like hell. Apocalypse only works because D weapons allow the removal of huge numbers of models at a time, and even then a 7K game could conceivably take two days to play.

I played a 4500 point game in 5 hours. a 7000 point game would take probably 8 or 9 hours with no titans. i however have 2 Titans so it would be quite a bit shorter then that (I didnt have titans for the 4500 point game.)

Heres a Dakka link for you

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/553992.page

 Xerics wrote:
...warhammer should be "In the grim darkness of the far future there is only skirmishes." because nobody plays war anymore. A war isn't 3 tanks a handful of infintry and a MC here and there. A war should look like lines of guardians with jetbike support. Air cover from the skies from at least 6 Crimson Hunters. 5 falcons 8 wave seprents 5 Fire Prisms. Large groups of wraithguard, a few wraithknights and wraithlords with warwalker support fire. a few squads of Fire Dragons, Striking Scorpions, banshees and maybe a troupe of harlequins, backed up by 3 Scorpion Superheavy Grav tanks, 4 towering destroyer knight titans, 2 Revenant Scout titans and a Phantom in the background all led by a farseer council, all the phoenix lords, The Avatar of Khaine and as many Special Characters the Eldar can muster to be there. thats a warhost. Not this measly 2000 points crap of "Oh Escalation/Apocalypse/Stronghold Assault isn't in the BRB so we aren't gunna play it" crap.

 Bobthehero wrote:
Of all the thing you mentionned, I've only seen the White Scar bike list, and I blew appart (actually light it appart, lasguns had better kill ratio than the Earthshakers)

You're talking out of you behind.

JubbJubbz wrote:

 Xerics wrote:
...warhammer should be "In the grim darkness of the far future there is only skirmishes." because nobody plays war anymore. A war isn't 3 tanks a handful of infintry and a MC here and there. A war should look like lines of guardians with jetbike support. Air cover from the skies from at least 6 Crimson Hunters. 5 falcons 8 wave seprents 5 Fire Prisms. Large groups of wraithguard, a few wraithknights and wraithlords with warwalker support fire. a few squads of Fire Dragons, Striking Scorpions, banshees and maybe a troupe of harlequins, backed up by 3 Scorpion Superheavy Grav tanks, 4 towering destroyer knight titans, 2 Revenant Scout titans and a Phantom in the background all led by a farseer council, all the phoenix lords, The Avatar of Khaine and as many Special Characters the Eldar can muster to be there. thats a warhost. Not this measly 2000 points crap of "Oh Escalation/Apocalypse/Stronghold Assault isn't in the BRB so we aren't gunna play it" crap.

Enthusiasm is contagious. Just reading that paragraph I'm getting hyped. It's not my normal thing so I don't know how it would play out but it sounds cool to me. Find some nearby people, pitch it to em, and DO IT!!! (looks like you're getting there already looking at those pics you linked). More so than anything what makes the hobby great is people taking the game and making it be what they want.

Deadnight wrote:

WayneTheGame wrote:

Makumba wrote:
And then what not play wargames at all ? Other game systems are not played as offten as w40k . It is lucky if there is a one shop per city that supports warmachine or infinity , in smaller cities w40k is the only game being played . And about changing stuff I don't like , how am I suppose to make people not use their eldar titans, riptides , deathstars . I don't like those , but they are having one hell of a time using them . No one is going to agree to have less fun , for others to have some .

Why play wargames? Because you like playing wargames is the answer.
Mate, I live in a small city, and can get games of 40k, fantasy, warmachine, hordes, infinity, dystopian wars, firestorm armada, flames of war, dropzone commander, malifaux, bolt action, etc pretty much any night of the week. And I don’t have to drive further than 45 minutes for any of these. And this is with limited support for DZC and Infinity. You’d be surprised whats under the radar, and for what its worth, its not impossible to get people interested in a new game – that’s how infinity, and malifaux has picked up so much here-folks on the ground level working hard to build communities.
40k is still an extremely popular game, but it’s far from being the only game in town. I’ve seen 40k gutted back home in Ireland, with a lot of retailers now doing a big stockings of WMH stuff, and its similar here in the UK. It’s not hard to get the pieces together.
How do you make people not use their stuff? Find like-minded people that don’t like “that sort of thing”. That’s how I’d do it. And IMO, they’re out there. It’s not a zero-sum equation. Again, it boils down to the “if you’re not having fun, why are you doing it argument”, which is followed by “is there an alternative, or something you can do about it”. I was unhappy, so I walked. And found something better. And it worked for me.
[

I don't live in UK , here the options are w40k , warmachine in realy big cities that had a warmachine community before the firm that was selling warmachine here decided to drop it , Infinify again in the biggest cities and the communities are very closed up and new player unfriendly. WFB where there are old communities and people bought most of their armies 2-3 editions ago and just have to buy a model or two each new edition and some WWII skirmish games . No other games are played here and in smaller cities , which for my countery is around 20k people , w40k is the only game that can be played. And what do you mean by same minded people . No one is going to risk to play the game or most important buy himself in to one , if isn't sure that the majority plays it the same way . Going to eldar players and asking them to not use their titans or Tau players and their Riptides will only end up with them laughing . Same with marines and their biker lists or demon players and their screamer stars.

JubbJubbz wrote:
You're not kidding about having a lot of painting to do! I've never had the chance to play such a large game / apoc. This looks a lot more interesting to me than the apoc vids I've watched. They seem to have so many vehicles and superheavies that it seems like the usual infantry and such are sidelined. That's clearly not the case in your pictures. One day I'll get around to trying this in my own area. I guess I also need some more models as my csm top out around 3500 or so >D

JubbJubbz wrote:
They seem to have so many vehicles and superheavies that it seems like the usual infantry and such are sidelined.

 knas ser wrote:

 Galorian wrote:

It's been claimed that GW writes these rules to sell models, but I don't think anyone ever claimed they were particularly competent at it...

Were the purpose of rules to sell models, then would not the rules be less crazily expensive so that they got into more people's hands? If the core book costs £40+ then that's not an optimum way to get people to buy it so that they will then buy models. Clearly selling rules is an end in itself just using such elementary logic.

 Peregrine wrote:

JubbJubbz wrote:
They seem to have so many vehicles and superheavies that it seems like the usual infantry and such are sidelined.

That's because playing with infantry in Apocalypse is hell. The only way to play a game with 50,000 points on the table is to have 90% of it be superheavies that eat up 500-1000 points each but only take a few die rolls to resolve. Show up with 10,000 points of infantry and you're going to be spending several hours on a single turn and everyone will probably get bored and leave before playing more than 1-2 turns. Meanwhile that infantry will do pretty much nothing, since 6" of movement and short-range weapons aren't very useful on a battlefield that takes up half the room.

 Peregrine wrote:

JubbJubbz wrote:
They seem to have so many vehicles and superheavies that it seems like the usual infantry and such are sidelined.

That's because playing with infantry in Apocalypse is hell. The only way to play a game with 50,000 points on the table is to have 90% of it be superheavies that eat up 500-1000 points each but only take a few die rolls to resolve. Show up with 10,000 points of infantry and you're going to be spending several hours on a single turn and everyone will probably get bored and leave before playing more than 1-2 turns. Meanwhile that infantry will do pretty much nothing, since 6" of movement and short-range weapons aren't very useful on a battlefield that takes up half the room.

 Xerics wrote:
40k isnt designed for tournaments... Never was meant to be.

 Xerics wrote:

I'm surprised GW hasn't promoted larger games because it means more people buying more models to participate in larger games. 5 hours to play a game is easy. Most people have an entire 48 hours on the weekend. the only reason you would have less then say about actually 32 hours (16 hours for sleeping) is things you did to reduce your own time (ie. had kids). Don't tell me out of 32 hours on the weekend you can't find 5 hours with someone else to play a game.

BTW games + kids don't go hand in hand very well. Just sayin.

 Xerics wrote:
40k isnt designed for tournaments... Never was meant to be. I'm surprised GW hasn't promoted larger games because it means more people buying more models to participate in larger games. 5 hours to play a game is easy. Most people have an entire 48 hours on the weekend. the only reason you would have less then say about actually 32 hours (16 hours for sleeping) is things you did to reduce your own time (ie. had kids). Don't tell me out of 32 hours on the weekend you can't find 5 hours with someone else to play a game.

BTW games + kids don't go hand in hand very well. Just sayin.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
40K is a platoon level skirmish game. It works OK with 1,000 - 1,500 points, about 10 units and up to maybe 100 models per side. As you get bigger than that various types of problems occur.

It doesn't scale to Apocalypse size forces.

That needn't stop people having fun with the occasional mega battle, of course, but it isn't something to do often.

Most people have an entire 48 hours on the weekend. the only reason you would have less then say about actually 32 hours (16 hours for sleeping) is things you did to reduce your own time (ie. had kids). Don't tell me out of 32 hours on the weekend you can't find 5 hours with someone else to play a game.