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So, having gone through all the warbands listed on the Lex, here are some more detailed numbers for perusal....

Of 134 Warbands:
fully 51 are listed as splinters from 1st Founding Legions;
23 listed are results of the Abyssal Crusade;
2 herald from the Badab War/Astral Claws;
2 listed are 21st Founding;
20 are mentioned as being entire chapters (not including those above);
2 were single companies;
7 on the list were apparent duplicates of other chapters;
6 are clearly mixed warbands ( one even mentions Kroot mercs);
1 appeared still to believe itself loyal;
and a total of 18 had little or no description at all to go on.

Make of all that what you will.

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 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
None of which being portrayed as something out of the ordinary. Hence, those are merely a few examples, not ultra-rare exceptions .
I mean, it is not like the Red Corsairs even had to use any kind of stratagem, or daemonic influence, or warp-based mind-control, or manipulation, or anything really. Board the ship, kill the captain, and BANG!, every space wolf that is a Chaos wannabe just comes out of the closet. If there was no manipulation involved, no conspiracy, why would that particular ship be full of Chaos wannabe just dying to turn their cloak around, and every other ship having only paragon of loyalty that would rather die than betray, like any good Imperial Guard ?

Yeah, you are right, I see it now! You are a genius and I love you.

Ah, finally, you have come to your sense. Also, modifying the text you quote is uncool.
 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
By that logic, I can say that dropping a normal pencil is enough to make a Battle Sister squad panic and run in mindless, pant-wetting terror, since they have been known to retreat once or twice in lore.

They have been known to retreat one or twice, yes, but not exactly in “mindless, pant-wetting terror”. Every force of the Imperium has been known to retreat, and the Sisters not any more than others. While Marines has been described as falling to chaos way, way more often than Imperial Guards or Sisters. And we just mention an occasion where they do so without any good reason at all.


I did not misrepresent your argument, I merely summed it up to hopefully make you see where the hole is. You are literally taking the only two examples mentioned in every single source there is and using them as the basis for some crazy fanfic where this is proof of SW falling to the left and right.

This is comparable to my SoB scenario. Or, I could use Sabathiel as proof that Sisters fall really easily too, since Sabathiel incidents are roughly as common (A total number difference of a single incident in all of history). TCG or not, Sabathiel is just as 'canon' as Vulfbad is.

I am starting to suspect my assessment was correct.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Are you trolling, or is it just some butthurt vendetta over Marines getting more love from GW?


And I really cba to argue with trolls.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/03/13 08:09:56


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 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
I did not misrepresent your argument, I merely summed it up to hopefully make you see where the hole is.

Just make clear what is your words and what is mine.
 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
You are literally taking the only two examples mentioned in every single source there is and using them as the basis for some crazy fanfic where this is proof of SW falling to the left and right.

Because of the way it is written. But hey, you headcanon does not make much more sense, does it ?
Spoiler:


 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
This is comparable to my SoB scenario.

I do not know. Please give a precise reference to an occurrence of Sisters retreating, and I will see if it seems to describe this as a common occurrence, and if the reasons for retreating were as non-existent as the reason the wolves had to turn their cloak.
 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
TCG or not, Sabathiel is just as 'canon' as Vulfbad is.

Yeah, and in both case, we have no context at all about in which circumstances they fell. For the Wolf of Fenris, however, we have a very nice explanation : they choose to betray rather than die. Which is pretty weak, really, for what are supposed to be very loyal elite troops. Especially given the nature of the foe they are surrendering to.
 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
I am starting to suspect my assessment was correct.
 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Are you trolling, or is it just some butthurt vendetta over Marines getting more love from GW?

So, which one is it ? Am I trolling, or is this a butthurt vendetta ?
 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
And I really cba to argue with trolls.

Cba ? What does that mean ?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/03/13 10:50:38


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It means 'can't be bothered'.



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Oh, okay, thanks.
Why the final a, though ? Why is it not cbb or something ?

"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
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New Orleans, LA

Traitor is a term of perspective.

Was Luft Huron a traitor? He was cleansing the Badab sector of xenos encroachment and his resources were being stripped from him. He was doing what he felt was best for the Imperium. Initially, anyway.

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Raleigh, NC

So of the original 17 legions, 7 were recorded as turning to Chaos, 2 were expunged for whatever mysterious reasons, and the other 8 remained loyal. After the Heresy, the original Space Marine legions were fragmented into chapters...I believe that the legions numbered in the ten(s) of thousands, so let's just say 10 chapters could have been created per legion (or perhaps many less depending on their numbers after the Heresy, whose to say).

But just based on the numbers from the Heresy, you could extrapolate that post-Heresy, there were roughly 70 chapters worth of Chaos Space Marines in terms of numbers. I know the numbers would fluctuate dramatically from this estimate due to the devastation of the Heresy, but since none of the original legions disappeared after the war, there was at least a fair amount of troops left over. Now the chapters were broken apart to prevent any supreme leader from (a) turning to Chaos and (b) using his might to sway large percentages of the army to go with him. I am guessing that is why you don't see a whole lot of entire chapters going over to Chaos. Chaos marines aren't referred to as chapters, just warbands, and due to the nature of Chaos itself there isn't that same type of defined structure you see with set chapters, and marines maintaining allegiance with the same throughout their lives.

That being said I don't see anything indicative in the fluff post-Heresy to suggest that marines don't fall to Chaos at a similar rate that they did before; their lives are not noticeably different (aka "Only War"). I just think GW doesn't feel like it's necessary to flesh out the reasoning behind the traitor marines since they often serve in a villain-sue role to juxtapose against the Imperial forces.

EDIT: after looking up numbers, it seems like legions varied wildly post-Heresy, from the small end at 7,000 to over 100,000 marines. Still, my example was more about the number of Chaos Marines that would be wandering around which could accept in recruits from the ranks of loyalists.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/03/13 18:13:24


 
   
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Seattle

Twenty Legions. 9 Fell, 2 were destroyed.

Fell: Luna Wolves, Word Bearers, Death Guard, Iron Warriors, Alpha Legion, World-Eaters, Night Lords, Emperor's Children and the Thousand Sons.

Legions II and XI were purged.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/03/13 18:43:19


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 Psienesis wrote:
Twenty Legions. 9 Fell, 2 were destroyed.

Fell: Luna Wolves, Word Bearers, Death Guard, Iron Warriors, Alpha Legion, World-Eaters, Night Lords, Emperor's Children and the Thousand Sons.

Legions II and XI were purged.


should have been more careful reading the stupid wiki article, thank you Psienesis.

Okay, so even more Chaos Marines at the end of the Heresy (and more Loyalists too). Luckily the ratio is still pretty similar to what I was getting at in my, albeit very rough, example.
   
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 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Yeah, and in both case, we have no context at all about in which circumstances they fell.

Miriael fell after being captured and tortured by the Emperor's Children.

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Seattle

Though she's not a studio character, first appearing in a third-party collectible card game.

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Just as canon and noncanon as anything else.

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 Psienesis wrote:
Though she's not a studio character, first appearing in a third-party collectible card game.
 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Just as canon and noncanon as anything else.

I propose that both of you repeat those messages a few hundred times more, just in case someone is not aware of it yet .

Good news, Haraldus, you had me ar… I mean, bothered enough to look for more stuff on Sabathiel. It appears she is actually described as “the only Sister who joined chaos”, and that happened only after being captured and tortured by Emperor's Children. So… yeah, it still make the wolves, and marines in general, look bad for turning even before the Red Corsairs even finish to conquer the ship .
I found a YouTube video of someone reading The Invitation, one of the two sources ever mentioning her. I will listen to it, if I can understand the English (recorded oral English makes me a sad panda ).

Also, this is lulworthy :
http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/index.php?title=Talk%3AMiriael_Sabathiel&diff=201950&oldid=201624
. MASSIVE bs !

"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1 
   
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Seattle

I like the character of Sabathiel, but as she doesn't appear in a Codex,even in oblique mention, or in anything other than a CCG, a comic book, and a short story, I tend to not use her as an example of, well, anything.

Because, otherwise, Terminators do back-flips and surf on Rhinos.


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 Psienesis wrote:
Because, otherwise, Terminators do back-flips and surf on Rhinos.



Things like this really shows the importance of the headcanon.

One could hardly fit in all the fluff of 40K into the same setting, since it does not match.

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Seattle

Of course. Headcanon is a totally different thing than basing some sort of consistent "vibe" for a given faction on what's presented in the "core" publications (Codices, rulebooks, IA, CJ, WD, etc.) and adding in stuff from external sources if, and only if, the "core" books are just silent on the subject.

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I would argue that SoB would become more interesting if they actually did fall occasionally, but this was so extremely hushed down so it is not written anywhere. (Playing on the fact that many 40K fluff texts are supposed to be from an in-universe perspective.)

But oh well.

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Seattle

Eh, I think that having 2 groups in the setting that have no members ever willingly fallen makes them interesting, especially since they are kind of on the opposite ends of the scale.

On the one hand, you have the SoB, who do what they do through faith and training, and on the other you have the Grey Knights, who do what they do through their psychic mastery and the practice of the vilest sorceries and the blackest magics.

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 Psienesis wrote:
faith and training


Don't forget their space magic!

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Hari, stop trolling.

Sabathiel isn't mentioned in Daemonifuge, either, I don't know why that's marked as a reference.



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 Furyou Miko wrote:
Hari, stop trolling.


;D

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Oh bloody hell... Someone's gone and added the fanfic and incorrect citations back into that page and then locked it! Even after I went though and explained the reasoning... I'll have to try talking to the person who did it, I guess. Though he did just change it all back without any explanation, so I'm not exactly confident.
 Psienesis wrote:
Eh, I think that having 2 groups in the setting that have no members ever willingly fallen makes them interesting, especially since they are kind of on the opposite ends of the scale.

On the one hand, you have the SoB, who do what they do through faith and training, and on the other you have the Grey Knights, who do what they do through their psychic mastery and the practice of the vilest sorceries and the blackest magics.

This. For me, the strength of their faith is what really sets the Sisters apart, and really makes them stand out as an army. While memebers of other Imperial forces might falter when faced with Chaotic corruption, the Sisters resist with sheer faith alone.
 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Don't forget their space magic!

Magic is for heretics, heretic.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I found a YouTube video of someone reading The Invitation, one of the two sources ever mentioning her. I will listen to it, if I can understand the English (recorded oral English makes me a sad panda ).

Here, bud, just read it:

http://www.emperorschildren.net/wiki/index.php?title=Characters:Mirial_Sabathial:THE_INVITATION

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/03/14 18:37:54


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behind you.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
The Badab War is not a common occurance.

@Psienesis, I think a good number of Chapters are created independently from foundings. That part I am unsure of, however.
yea Badab War is very rare and reminds me of WW1 but was due to the darn machine loving psycos which if the stupid Inquisition did not have too much power some one sane would have stepped in and said the mechanicus started this crud so they must be punished. In my opine the Inquision needs to be culled&power limmited cause they declare renegade and heretic too quickly due to the fact they dont understand the astartes. I think we will see down the road a massive war against the Inquisition carried out by the Astartes. I think Grimaldus will be the main astartes pushing for the purge.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Psienesis wrote:
Twenty Legions. 9 Fell, 2 were destroyed.

Fell: Luna Wolves, Word Bearers, Death Guard, Iron Warriors, Alpha Legion, World-Eaters, Night Lords, Emperor's Children and the Thousand Sons.

Legions II and XI were purged.
Cant really say that Alpha Legion fell to Chaos cause their true loyalties are still unknown. if you read the White Scars novel you will see how allot of what they do is in their opine to protect the imperium. I would put them in renegade section.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/03/14 22:56:58


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Seattle

if you read the White Scars novel you will see how allot of what they do is in their opine to protect the imperium. I would put them in renegade section.


Alpha Legion is as Traitor as they come. What they *think* they are doing is irrelevant.

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Preacher of the Emperor






And, correct me if I'm wrong, but the Alpha Legion possibly being secret loyalists is just a BL thing, right? As far as I'm aware, GW and FW have characterised them as unambiguously evil.

Though, to clarify, one can of course go with whichever characterisation they prefer.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/03/14 23:25:25


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sophiteem wrote:
but was due to the darn machine loving psycos which if the stupid Inquisition did not have too much power some one sane would have stepped in and said the mechanicus started this crud so they must be punished. In my opine the Inquision needs to be culled&power limmited cause they declare renegade and heretic too quickly due to the fact they dont understand the astartes. I think we will see down the road a massive war against the Inquisition carried out by the Astartes. I think Grimaldus will be the main astartes pushing for the purge.

lol.
The marines fall to Chaos even more often than Inquisitors, and that is saying something.
 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
I would argue that SoB would become more interesting if they actually did fall occasionally, but this was so extremely hushed down so it is not written anywhere. (Playing on the fact that many 40K fluff texts are supposed to be from an in-universe perspective.)

Well, you would argue that anything that made space marines look better or any other faction look weaker would make things more interesting, we know that .
 Troike wrote:
Oh bloody hell... Someone's gone and added the fanfic and incorrect citations back into that page and then locked it! Even after I went though and explained the reasoning...

Yeah. Quality editing, really !
 Troike wrote:
http://www.emperorschildren.net/wiki/index.php?title=Characters:Mirial_Sabathial:THE_INVITATION

Thanks.
I think I should quote a bit for Haraldus :
“Second only to the mighty Astartes, the sisters of battle were the most perfect fighting mechanisms of the Imperium of Man. Unlike the Astartes, none of them had ever fallen to corruption.”
See ? Even your favorite source agrees with me that marines fall all the time for no good reasons !

"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1 
   
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 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Well, you would argue that anything that made space marines look better or any other faction look weaker would make things more interesting, we know that .


Except that this is just ad hominem.

Why do you think I suggest that Marines are less corruptible than you think when I am a CSM player?

The hypocrisy is pretty massive, btw, when your posts are overflowing with wild fanfics about marines falling at the blink of an eye while your beloved SoB are oh-so-incorruptible.

Are Battle Sisters really so awful so they need 100% incorruptability in order to Not Suck™?

Before you throw some appeal to hypocrisy fallacy at me, I assure you that Marines would not be significantly lessened in my eyes if they were easier to corrupt than other imperial organisations.

However, I still argue against it.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
See ? Even your favorite source agrees with me that marines fall all the time for no good reasons !


And unsurprisingly, you draw instant conclusions that are entirely ungrounded.

You have no idea at all of what my favourite source is, since I have not told you. And if you want to draw some obtuse conclusion from what I most often base my arguments on, say hello to www.lexicanum.com

Jumping from 'Marines have fallen at all' to 'marines fall all the time for no good reasons !' is an implausible fanfic to say the least.

But why am I even bothering with this asininity?

It's like talking to a doll that says 'Marines suck lel xDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD' when you press the button on its belly.

It gets sort of tedious after a while.





This message was edited 7 times. Last update was at 2014/03/15 02:06:17


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Krieg! What a hole...

I'd be suprised if there were more than 1% of the IG that fell.

So a 10% failure is pretty massive

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 Bobthehero wrote:
I'd be suprised if there were more than 1% of the IG that fell.

So a 10% failure is pretty massive


False equivalence.

Guard are not nearly as targeted by corruption and temptation attempts because they are weaker and tend to die much faster than their Marine friends.

If a Noise Marine can choose between playing brainfething dubstep for five minutes for a Guardsman or ten minutes for a Marine, and either situation will result in the, you guessed it, brainfething of the unfortunate victim, then of course the latter is targeted.'

Guardsmen tend to just die before the corruption even can take root, whereas Marines have a higher Sudden Tentacle Survival Ratio™.

To assume that Marines would somehow gain increased corruption sensibility due to high training, implants, long lives, psycho-conditioning and careful selection is an illogical argument.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/03/15 02:14:08


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