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 ansacs wrote:
Actually the SM probably could not bombard any moving targets. They do not have precision targeting systems and normally make up for this inaccuracy with using tactical level weapons to target vehicles and continent level to target cities. This conversation does become trivial if you start talking about exterminatus level support from an orbital fleet. So the OP limited it.

Why do you need precision target systems if you have deathstrike and vortex missiles?

Waaaghpower wrote:

 daddyorchips wrote:
wow, this thread is great. i've only read the first page but we've got americans claiming that the USA could defeat multiple chapters of Space Marines. but the USA didn't manage to defeat the Taliban ffs. What do they put in the water over there? Soma I reckon.

Adeuptus Astartes don't use Guerilla tactics, and wear bright, shiny armor that makes them stand out like blood on snow. Our problem with the Taliban was locating them. Once we've got a target, assuming we don't mind collateral damage, that target it paste.

That is assuming the Space Marines haven't taken out our necessary infrastructure already and that our weapons are actually effective against their armour. Space Marines specialise in surgical strikes, they don't just walk around waiting to be shot. Their weaponry is much more powerful than ours, and apart from our heaviest weapons, everything we have is ineffective against their armour. Space Marines have conquered much more powerful foes than 21st century Earth. A single company would break our backs in a matter of days.

You guys do know that the options you get on the tabletop are not the entire kit of the Imperium's (or anyone else's) bag, right?

I mean, the SM can equip their bolters with "spoor targeters", which allows them to fire into a crowd and hit either, a, the one person they wanted to kill or, b, anyone who isn't an ally.

We can't do that.

Also? We don't have man-portable lascannons. Or meltas. Or conversion beamers... and a conversion beamer hits harder the farther away from your target you are. So with a decent auspex system, a Space Marine Scout in orbit can hang out the door of the Strike Cruiser and snipe tanks from orbit.

We can't do that.

Waaaghpower wrote:

 daddyorchips wrote:
wow, this thread is great. i've only read the first page but we've got americans claiming that the USA could defeat multiple chapters of Space Marines. but the USA didn't manage to defeat the Taliban ffs. What do they put in the water over there? Soma I reckon.

Adeuptus Astartes don't use Guerilla tactics, and wear bright, shiny armor that makes them stand out like blood on snow. Our problem with the Taliban was locating them. Once we've got a target, assuming we don't mind collateral damage, that target it paste.

Furthermore, the Taliban weren't threatening the USA. It was a US invasion of Afghanistan - their home turf. The Taliban weren't trying to invade the USA, occupy Connecticut or maintain supply lines to a different state. If you're not the aggressor and you're in your home country, you have a lot of options for avoiding the enemy. This isn't true for Space Marines - they need to go to the US and fight. I'm sure they would be amazing guerilla fighters with all that training and endurance. But ultimately if they want to actually achieve anything, they will expose themselves and the more they want to achieve, the more they will expose themselves.

Why are we talking about the Imperium anyway?

Earth vs a ten billion ork strong WAAAGH! Would be far more fun to watch.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:


Yeah, a librarian would be nasty.

"Oh, you have a few tanks? That's nice..." *Opens a warp rift*

Remember, Our soldiers can shoot. And Librarians don't where helmets. We could take out most of the command structure of a Space Marine Chapter because the idiots never wear headgear

 Overlord Thraka wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:


Yeah, a librarian would be nasty.

"Oh, you have a few tanks? That's nice..." *Opens a warp rift*

Remember, Our soldiers can shoot. And Librarians don't where helmets. We could take out most of the command structure of a Space Marine Chapter because the idiots never wear headgear

They have tough skin. They can probably take a bullet to the head.

Besides, not all officers don't wear helmets. I suspect the reason why the artwork and the miniatures of them tend not to have helmets is to show off that they're important.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Overlord Thraka wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:


Yeah, a librarian would be nasty.

"Oh, you have a few tanks? That's nice..." *Opens a warp rift*

Remember, Our soldiers can shoot. And Librarians don't where helmets. We could take out most of the command structure of a Space Marine Chapter because the idiots never wear headgear

They have tough skin. They can probably take a bullet to the head.

Besides, not all officers don't wear helmets. I suspect the reason why the artwork and the miniatures of them tend not to have helmets is to show off that they're important.

Maybe we won't be able to kill them with *one* bullet to the head, but a half dozen shots in a cluster? Or what about a 90mm Anti-Tank round? Or a Bazooka?

Waaaghpower wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Overlord Thraka wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:


Yeah, a librarian would be nasty.

"Oh, you have a few tanks? That's nice..." *Opens a warp rift*

Remember, Our soldiers can shoot. And Librarians don't where helmets. We could take out most of the command structure of a Space Marine Chapter because the idiots never wear headgear

They have tough skin. They can probably take a bullet to the head.

Besides, not all officers don't wear helmets. I suspect the reason why the artwork and the miniatures of them tend not to have helmets is to show off that they're important.

Maybe we won't be able to kill them with *one* bullet to the head, but a half dozen shots in a cluster? Or what about a 90mm Anti-Tank round? Or a Bazooka?

That could work. Provided the marine stays still. They are nimbler than they look.

Modern cannon are exceedingly accurate however, an Abrams or Leopard 2 can hit a vehicle sized target at speed, while moving at speed, 2000m+ away with very high accuracy rates, against a man sized target at say 300 meters? The SM wouldn't stand a chance, he's going down no matter where he's hit. modern AT rounds can penetrate upwards of a meter of hardened steel, and nowhere is SM armor described as being anywhere even near that tough, while an HE round landing within a couple meters would leave his insides a soupy mix of blood and pureed organs even through his armor.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Modern cannon are exceedingly accurate however, an Abrams or Leopard 2 can hit a vehicle sized target at speed, while moving at speed, 2000m+ away with very high accuracy rates, against a man sized target at say 300 meters? The SM wouldn't stand a chance, he's going down no matter where he's hit. modern AT rounds can penetrate upwards of a meter of hardened steel, and nowhere is SM armor described as being anywhere even near that tough, while an HE round landing within a couple meters would leave his insides a soupy mix of blood and pureed organs even through his armor.

Not sure about the HE rounds liquefying him. The PA is designed to absorb shock waves. It is meant to be used in space, after all.
A direct hit with a AT shell would certainly harm a marine though.

 Kain wrote:
Why are we talking about the Imperium anyway?

Earth vs a ten billion ork strong WAAAGH! Would be far more fun to watch.

Wherever they land, all humans will die. And then that area will be reduced to ashes. Orks could conquer a continent, but also considering how long it takes to cross the United States, let alone run across, they would be destroyed wherever they were within an hour of landing.

Actually the SM probably could not bombard any moving targets. They do not have precision targeting systems and normally make up for this inaccuracy with using tactical level weapons to target vehicles and continent level to target cities.

40k space battles take place at distances of hundreds of thousands or millions of miles. Every shot is fired at where you expect your enemy to be in the 10 minutes it takes the light of your laser to travel that far. To say a marine ship doesn't have precision targeting systems is laughable.

Yeah, I don't know why people keep thinking the IoM doesn't have targeting. If you are fighting in space, you kind of need that sort of tech.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Yeah, I don't know why people keep thinking the IoM doesn't have targeting. If you are fighting in space, you kind of need that sort of tech.

The IoM has excellent technology, in many ways they're one of the most technologically advanced factions in 40k (yeah yeah I know necrons are probably better). However the Imperium has very poor technological diffusion. Starships and the admech have technology beyond our fathoming while the average guardsman has at most 1960's era technology.

 EmilCrane wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Yeah, I don't know why people keep thinking the IoM doesn't have targeting. If you are fighting in space, you kind of need that sort of tech.

The IoM has excellent technology, in many ways they're one of the most technologically advanced factions in 40k (yeah yeah I know necrons are probably better). However the Imperium has very poor technological diffusion. Starships and the admech have technology beyond our fathoming while the average guardsman has at most 1960's era technology.

Yes, because they had laser guns in the 1960s

But yes, I see your point. To be fair though, it comes down to logistics. Humans don't last as long as space ships, and when you have to field millions of them to get anything done, it doesn't make that much sense to deck them out in powered armor and plasma.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 EmilCrane wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Yeah, I don't know why people keep thinking the IoM doesn't have targeting. If you are fighting in space, you kind of need that sort of tech.

The IoM has excellent technology, in many ways they're one of the most technologically advanced factions in 40k (yeah yeah I know necrons are probably better). However the Imperium has very poor technological diffusion. Starships and the admech have technology beyond our fathoming while the average guardsman has at most 1960's era technology.

Yes, because they had laser guns in the 1960s

But yes, I see your point. To be fair though, it comes down to logistics. Humans don't last as long as space ships, and when you have to field millions of them to get anything done, it doesn't make that much sense to deck them out in powered armor and plasma.

Its also because a lot of the really advanced tech the imperium has they can't replicate, so if they issue it to every guardsman they'll lose a lot more than they gain when that guardsman is brutally murdered on some world.

As I said earlier the big thing that we have that the imperium doesn't are micro processors. Fire control computers, fire and forget missiles. The best the imperium can manage are semi-active missiles or SACLOS. Leman Russ tanks have ww2 era gyro stabilizers and the imperium still relies on searchlight for night fighting.

I'm not some kind of imperial hater, I only play imperial armies, love my guard, love my marines, and strategically the imperium of man is nearly impossible to defeat for anyone in any universe, but I'm not going to sell real world militaries capabilities short.

If they don't have fire control computers, then how do manticores and deathstrikes work? Isn't a Deathstrike an ICBM?

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
If they don't have fire control computers, then how do manticores and deathstrikes work? Isn't a Deathstrike an ICBM?

Radio control, gyro control, hell they probably do have computers, they have cogitators and "machine spirits" but they're pre-micro chip computers that take up a lot of room and require a lot of power. You can guide an ICBM with them but you can't put one in a tank

 EmilCrane wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
If they don't have fire control computers, then how do manticores and deathstrikes work? Isn't a Deathstrike an ICBM?

Radio control, gyro control, hell they probably do have computers, they have cogitators and "machine spirits" but they're pre-micro chip computers that take up a lot of room and require a lot of power. You can guide an ICBM with them but you can't put one in a tank

Apparently you can.

From Lexi:

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Manticore#.UyJV_vldXq4

The Manticore is a highly sophisticated piece of equipment, with audio-modulated radio control systems, gyroscopic roll stabilisation, radar-guided targeting augers and predictive logic-engines.

Predictive logic engine sounds like a computer to me.

Couldn't find anything on what the Deathstrike launcher uses though. All I could find on lexi was that the launch codes are kept by Lord Commissars.

 EmilCrane wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 EmilCrane wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Yeah, I don't know why people keep thinking the IoM doesn't have targeting. If you are fighting in space, you kind of need that sort of tech.

The IoM has excellent technology, in many ways they're one of the most technologically advanced factions in 40k (yeah yeah I know necrons are probably better). However the Imperium has very poor technological diffusion. Starships and the admech have technology beyond our fathoming while the average guardsman has at most 1960's era technology.

Yes, because they had laser guns in the 1960s

But yes, I see your point. To be fair though, it comes down to logistics. Humans don't last as long as space ships, and when you have to field millions of them to get anything done, it doesn't make that much sense to deck them out in powered armor and plasma.

Its also because a lot of the really advanced tech the imperium has they can't replicate, so if they issue it to every guardsman they'll lose a lot more than they gain when that guardsman is brutally murdered on some world.

As I said earlier the big thing that we have that the imperium doesn't are micro processors. Fire control computers, fire and forget missiles. The best the imperium can manage are semi-active missiles or SACLOS. Leman Russ tanks have ww2 era gyro stabilizers and the imperium still relies on searchlight for night fighting.

I'm not some kind of imperial hater, I only play imperial armies, love my guard, love my marines, and strategically the imperium of man is nearly impossible to defeat for anyone in any universe, but I'm not going to sell real world militaries capabilities short.

Why on earth are you assuming they don't have those things?
Just because they don't exist on the battlefield in the game doesn't mean they don't have them. Dataslates (tablet computers) are pretty common and not every guardsman comes from a WWII inspired regiment. Off the top of my head guants ghosts makes mentions of night vision goggles that are less bulky than ours and tanks with fire control and stabalisers that, while I could not tell you how they compare you how they compare to our tech, made an absolute mess of the tanks without them because they could move and fire accuratly.

This old debate again?

Ok, here's a thought...how long would an Imperial attack last to achieve total domination of the planet? Months? Longer? I ask because any captured Imperial gear will probably be assimilated fairly quickly. Unlike the Imperium's stagnant technological culture, ours is pretty robust, especially when goaded during times of war. I don't see lascannons for example, being too hard to mimic.

 EmilCrane wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 EmilCrane wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Yeah, I don't know why people keep thinking the IoM doesn't have targeting. If you are fighting in space, you kind of need that sort of tech.

The IoM has excellent technology, in many ways they're one of the most technologically advanced factions in 40k (yeah yeah I know necrons are probably better). However the Imperium has very poor technological diffusion. Starships and the admech have technology beyond our fathoming while the average guardsman has at most 1960's era technology.

Yes, because they had laser guns in the 1960s

But yes, I see your point. To be fair though, it comes down to logistics. Humans don't last as long as space ships, and when you have to field millions of them to get anything done, it doesn't make that much sense to deck them out in powered armor and plasma.

Its also because a lot of the really advanced tech the imperium has they can't replicate, so if they issue it to every guardsman they'll lose a lot more than they gain when that guardsman is brutally murdered on some world.

As I said earlier the big thing that we have that the imperium doesn't are micro processors. Fire control computers, fire and forget missiles. The best the imperium can manage are semi-active missiles or SACLOS. Leman Russ tanks have ww2 era gyro stabilizers and the imperium still relies on searchlight for night fighting.

I'm not some kind of imperial hater, I only play imperial armies, love my guard, love my marines, and strategically the imperium of man is nearly impossible to defeat for anyone in any universe, but I'm not going to sell real world militaries capabilities short.

True, nowadays we have some cool stuff 40k might not have, but the stuff they have that we don't is staggering. I mean do we actually have strong enough weapon systems that can pierce SM power armor, or the front plate of a Leman Russ/Predator (while the armor is as thick as stuff today it is made of plas-steel, ceramite, and in some cases adamantium, far more advanced than just ordinary steel)? The closest i can think of of the top of my head is the experimental railgun DARPA and the Navy are working on.

We would put up a fight, but we go down hard, harder than most think.

The problem is, the fluff is completely inconsistent, and the rules don't match the fluff. A Space Marine can be punched to death by a Guardsman with his bare hands, but also will survive multiple plasma rounds to the face. Lasguns can punch holes through tank armor, but also only kill a person about half the time they hit. Orks are stronger than humans by far, but also equally strong.
It really depends on what fluff and power level you subscribe to. It could be that one Space Marine can kill everyone on earth, (A-la the game Space Marine,) or that they can easily be mown down like yesterday's jam.

Realistically, I think one strike cruiser with a company of marines would be way more than sufficient.

Since they can just teleport a terminator squad in from orbit and decapitate any kind of government or command structure at will, it would be pretty much impossible for us to organize resistance, or respond in time. It takes us weeks to move military forces around the globe. Even if we did have something in the right place at the right time, it would just be a case of surgical strike > gone. By the time we even knew what was going on, there would be nothing left but smoke.

This is what stops people getting into the pentagon...
Won't stop terminators.

Their power to disrupt our government, military, economy, and even just terrorize the populace (if it suited them) would be absolute. And they've had loads of practice at it, they can probably pull off a planetary wide coup in less than 24 hours. Someone would negotiate, we'd agree to pay planetary tithes and that would be it. Over the next few months I assume we'd have a procession of imperial bureaucrats and missionaries arriving to oversee our indoctrination into the imperial fold. Things might not even be that much different at first, I guarantee we'd still all have to go to work in the morning and pay tax. It would be so fast, you might not even miss a day...

 jifel wrote:

 Kain wrote:
Why are we talking about the Imperium anyway?

Earth vs a ten billion ork strong WAAAGH! Would be far more fun to watch.

Wherever they land, all humans will die. And then that area will be reduced to ashes. Orks could conquer a continent, but also considering how long it takes to cross the United States, let alone run across, they would be destroyed wherever they were within an hour of landing.

Ten billion orks could land a billion combatants on every inhabited continent with four billion in reserves.

They could easily spread out to have more soldiers than any country has people in a simultaneous invasion of every nation on the planet.

That would be epic to watch.

 amanita wrote:
This old debate again?

Ok, here's a thought...how long would an Imperial attack last to achieve total domination of the planet? Months? Longer? I ask because any captured Imperial gear will probably be assimilated fairly quickly. Unlike the Imperium's stagnant technological culture, ours is pretty robust, especially when goaded during times of war. I don't see lascannons for example, being too hard to mimic.

Who cares about las-cannons. If we could replicate the IoM's power generation capabilities, we'd have a good chance of winning outright given just a modest amount of breathing room. Power Armour isn't amazing because it can take a bullet without flinching. It's amazing because it can run for months without re-charging. Give us whatever technology the IoM uses to achieve that, and we'll produce wonders even if you don't advance our current level of tech in any other way. I mean we had chemical lasers in the Eighties that could theoretically shoot down ICBMs. The problem? The power requirements were crazy. Give us the powersource that Las-Cannon uses and we have everything else we need.

Again, Modern Earth vs the IoM has been done to death.

Modern Earth vs the Necrons, Tyranids, Orks, or Chaos is much more interesting.

Would love to see the modern response to the IoM's battleships. Perhaps an Orion-class battlecruiser (Real technology). Given that a normal IoM battleship uses generic plasma drives, I'd love to see a pulsed nuclear powered battleship easily outrun a IoM battleship and then use a casabah nuclear cannon to destroy it.

Would void shields protect against radiation?

 Doctadeth wrote:
Would love to see the modern response to the IoM's battleships. Perhaps an Orion-class battlecruiser (Real technology). Given that a normal IoM battleship uses generic plasma drives, I'd love to see a pulsed nuclear powered battleship easily outrun a IoM battleship and then use a casabah nuclear cannon to destroy it.

Would void shields protect against radiation?

Source? The only thing that remotely matched that description was from a game.

The other thing I found that used the name Orion was a 1910 battleship.

By battle cruiser, do you mean one that flies, or one that floats?

Would void shields protect against radiation?

They do. They protect from any energy-based attack.

Perhaps an Orion-class battlecruiser (Real technology)

This fictional battlecruiser might be fast... but fast does not get you out of the way of a salvo of macrocannon batteries and lance strikes that cut through your hull like butter.

... unless you are talking about the super-dreadnoughts of 1910, in which case its a steel-hulled wet-navy vessel, that absolutely no starships of the IoM give a single feth about, and melt into slag with a point-defense turret.