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From Counter-Attack. Grey Hunters won't survive unharmed before getting assaulted, (Even Ork Boys or Termagants will cause 3-4 wounds,) and one set of Chapter Tactics already accounts for the 2 CCW. So, a half dozen or so more attacks when being charged.

The disparity isn't as big as it was with the 6E core rules changes and 6E SM codex update, but TL;DR, Grey Hunters come out cheaper (particularly if taking a Wolf Guard sergeant replacement) while simultaneously being generally more effective. Countattack+CCW is huge, it puts equivalent units in a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation at close ranges with no viable assault options, be they defensive or offensive, against an equivalent like a Tac squad and the GH unit can shoot back just as well. Having Sergeant equivalents that are cheaper with much cheaper weapon upgrades than SM Sergeants doesn't help either.

Lets compare 10 Grey Hunters in a Drop Pod to 30 Ork Boys. (A standard setup for me.) We'll even give the GH flamers.
When the Grey Hunters drop, they'll cause ~ 8 Wounds. (Assumimg 4 hits per flamer.) If the Orks have cover, which isn't unlikely, that drops to around 5.
Shoota Boys will then cause about 3 dead Grey Hunters with their shootas. If they charge, they'll take 2 more wounds.
The 7 Grey Hunters (IF they pass their LD test) will then get about 5 dead Orks. The remaining 18 Shoota boys then cause an average of 4.5 more dead Grey Hunters. We'll round that down to 4.
Orks are still fearless, so it's now 3 Grey Hunters versus 18 Ork Boys. The Grey Hunters will (Rounding up) cause 2 wounds. The Orks will cause 2 as well.
Last round, a single Grey Hunter will cause half a wound and die.

No, the Orks can't hurt the Drop Pod. So there's that.

But, victory goes to the Orks, who will still be at half strength.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, you can't take Sergeants in a vehicle and still get your second special weapon. Footslogging a Marine is death. So, nobody ever uses the amazing incredible Wolf Sergeant.

Waaaghpower wrote:
Lets compare 10 Grey Hunters in a Drop Pod to 30 Ork Boys. (A standard setup for me.) We'll even give the GH flamers.
When the Grey Hunters drop, they'll cause ~ 8 Wounds. (Assumimg 4 hits per flamer.) If the Orks have cover, which isn't unlikely, that drops to around 5.
Shoota Boys will then cause about 3 dead Grey Hunters with their shootas. If they charge, they'll take 2 more wounds.
The 7 Grey Hunters (IF they pass their LD test) will then get about 5 dead Orks. The remaining 18 Shoota boys then cause an average of 4.5 more dead Grey Hunters. We'll round that down to 4.
Orks are still fearless, so it's now 3 Grey Hunters versus 18 Ork Boys. The Grey Hunters will (Rounding up) cause 2 wounds. The Orks will cause 2 as well.
Last round, a single Grey Hunter will cause half a wound and die.

No, the Orks can't hurt the Drop Pod. So there's that.

But, victory goes to the Orks, who will still be at half strength.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, you can't take Sergeants in a vehicle and still get your second special weapon. Footslogging a Marine is death. So, nobody ever uses the amazing incredible Wolf Sergeant.

Yeup, that about sume it up.

Waaaghpower wrote:
From Counter-Attack. Grey Hunters won't survive unharmed before getting assaulted, (Even Ork Boys or Termagants will cause 3-4 wounds,) and one set of Chapter Tactics already accounts for the 2 CCW. So, a half dozen or so more attacks when being charged.

Half a dozen attacks if you have 3 remaining GHs, and that's still 300% of the attacks a Tactical Squad would be getting.

Waaaghpower wrote:
Lets compare 10 Grey Hunters in a Drop Pod to 30 Ork Boys. (A standard setup for me.) We'll even give the GH flamers.
When the Grey Hunters drop, they'll cause ~ 8 Wounds. (Assumimg 4 hits per flamer.) If the Orks have cover, which isn't unlikely, that drops to around 5.
Shoota Boys will then cause about 3 dead Grey Hunters with their shootas. If they charge, they'll take 2 more wounds.
The 7 Grey Hunters (IF they pass their LD test) will then get about 5 dead Orks. The remaining 18 Shoota boys then cause an average of 4.5 more dead Grey Hunters. We'll round that down to 4.
Orks are still fearless, so it's now 3 Grey Hunters versus 18 Ork Boys. The Grey Hunters will (Rounding up) cause 2 wounds. The Orks will cause 2 as well.
Last round, a single Grey Hunter will cause half a wound and die.

No, the Orks can't hurt the Drop Pod. So there's that.

But, victory goes to the Orks, who will still be at half strength.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, you can't take Sergeants in a vehicle and still get your second special weapon. Footslogging a Marine is death. So, nobody ever uses the amazing incredible Wolf Sergeant.

There's a non-zero chance that all the Orks won't be able to fight. That's a big limiting factor whenever I take on Orks. You can bet all those GH are swinging.

Let's also not forget that shoota boyz are also an excellent troop. Care to game this out against most other troops? Didn't think so.

Sure. Let's try it against Tyranids.
30 Termagants with 16 Devourers. It's reasonable, omce again, to assume 5+ cover. In addition, the non-Devourers would bubble wrap the Devourers.
Upon deep striking, the Grey Hunters get 9 dead Gants.
The Gants have better shooting than the Ork Boys. They get 4.5 dead Grey Hunters. On the chatge they'll take 2 wounds.
The Grey Hunters get 18 attacks, 12 hits, 7 dead Gants. The Gants get 3 dead Grey Hunters.
Next round of combat, the last 3 Grey Hunters get 2 dead Gants.The Gants get 1 dead Grey Hunter.
2 and 1 again.
Then, 1 and 1.

It's closer, but the Gants still win.

I think a lot of hate comes from 5th edition (not that GH still are not good).

But when Tactical Marines were 1 point more expensive and got less...it was a big deal.

When those charging ork boyz blew up to fearless it was a big deal.

GH are good, but hardly OP these days. They are one of the better troops in the game, but not rediculously so.

Waaaghpower wrote:
Lets compare 10 Grey Hunters in a Drop Pod to 30 Ork Boys. (A standard setup for me.) We'll even give the GH flamers.
When the Grey Hunters drop, they'll cause ~ 8 Wounds. (Assumimg 4 hits per flamer.) If the Orks have cover, which isn't unlikely, that drops to around 5.
Shoota Boys will then cause about 3 dead Grey Hunters with their shootas. If they charge, they'll take 2 more wounds.
The 7 Grey Hunters (IF they pass their LD test) will then get about 5 dead Orks. The remaining 18 Shoota boys then cause an average of 4.5 more dead Grey Hunters. We'll round that down to 4.
Orks are still fearless, so it's now 3 Grey Hunters versus 18 Ork Boys. The Grey Hunters will (Rounding up) cause 2 wounds. The Orks will cause 2 as well.
Last round, a single Grey Hunter will cause half a wound and die.

No, the Orks can't hurt the Drop Pod. So there's that.

But, victory goes to the Orks, who will still be at half strength.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, you can't take Sergeants in a vehicle and still get your second special weapon. Footslogging a Marine is death. So, nobody ever uses the amazing incredible Wolf Sergeant.

16 Bolter shots is 5.333... dead Orks, the Flamers add another 4, for 9 Orks down. 21 Shoota Boyz kill 2.333... Marines. Overwatch kills another 3 Orks (4 flamer hits + 2 bolter hits). The Marines kill 5 Boyz, the remaining 13 Orks kill 3.25 Marines. 13 Orks remaining against 4 Grey Hunters.

Next turn the Marines kill 1.666... Orks. 11 Orks swing back for 1.222... kills, leaving 11 Orks vs. 3 Grey Hunters.

Next turn the Marines kill 1.25 Orks. 10 Orks swing back for 1.111... dead Marines. Orks are no longer Fearless and have a small risk of being swept, winning the Grey Hunters combat outright.

Next turn, 2 Marines swing for 0.833... dead Orks. 9 Orks swing back for 1 dead Marine.

The turn after that, the last Grey Hunter kill 0.416... Orks. The Remaining 8 finish him off. So yeah, if "half strength" means "half of half strength" then yeah.

Now, compare this to normal Tactical Marines:

18 Bolter shots (only 1 flamer) is 6 dead Orks, plus 2 from the Flamer for 8 total. 22 Shoota Boyz kill 2.444... Marines. Another 2.5 Orks die to Overwatch, leaving 8 Marines to fight 19 Orks.

8 Marines kill 1.666... Orks, leaving 17 Orks to punch back for 4.25 dead Marines, leaving 3 Marines.

Next turn, those Marines kill 0.625 Orks, the remaining 16 Orks kill 1.777... Marines, leaving 1 Marine.

Next turn, Lonely McLonerson kills 0.2083... Orks before dying. The Ork horde wins with 16 remaining models, twice that of when they fought the Grey Hunters.

Now do you see the problem?

Heck, let's try it against Sisters of Frikkin' Battle. (15, with 2 Flamers.)
Grey Hunters arrive, get 3 dead Sisters.
Sisters return fire, and get 5 dead Grey Hunters They can't charge, because they fired Rapid Fire. They also used up their act of faith.
If the Grey Hunters continue exchanging vollies, they'll cause 2.5 more dead Sisters, who will cause about equal damage in return. Next turn, the Grey Hunters cause maybe 2 wounds and are whittled down to one man. They die without causing mire damage.

If the Grey Hunters want to charge, they will get 1.4 wounds with Pistols. Then, they'll take 1.4 wounds from Overwatch.
4 Grey Hunters get 2 dead Sisters of Battle. The Sisters, in exchange, cause a mere 1 wound.
The numbers are really close, but the Grey Hunters just slightly edge out, with perhaps one man left.

Waaaghpower wrote:
Sure. Let's try it against Tyranids.
30 Termagants with 16 Devourers. It's reasonable, omce again, to assume 5+ cover. In addition, the non-Devourers would bubble wrap the Devourers.
Upon deep striking, the Grey Hunters get 9 dead Gants.
The Gants have better shooting than the Ork Boys. They get 4.5 dead Grey Hunters. On the chatge they'll take 2 wounds.
The Grey Hunters get 18 attacks, 12 hits, 7 dead Gants. The Gants get 3 dead Grey Hunters.
Next round of combat, the last 3 Grey Hunters get 2 dead Gants.The Gants get 1 dead Grey Hunter.
2 and 1 again.
Then, 1 and 1.

It's closer, but the Gants still win.

I don't think assuming all the gaunts get to fight is super accurate, but I'm not sure what to do about that.

Now also repeat all these same scenarios for tac marines. Try not to vomit. Maybe the tac marine is just that bad.

Almightywalrus: I see a big problem. You didn't account for Chapter Tactics. Or account for the fact that Tacticals are slightly cheaper and could get different gear. White Scars could break from the combat and continue shooting. Salamanders would cause another wound with Flamers. (Not to memtion, you forgot to account for the Sergeant at least having a combi-flamer.)
Just with Salamandars and buying the sergeant a combi-weapon, that's 5 more wounds before blows are struck that you didn't account for.
I won't even get into FW Chapter Tactics.

Waaaghpower wrote:
Almightywalrus: I see a big problem. You didn't account for Chapter Tactics. Or account for the fact that Tacticals are slightly cheaper and could get different gear. White Scars could break from the combat and continue shooting. Salamanders would cause another wound with Flamers. (Not to memtion, you forgot to account for the Sergeant at least having a combi-flamer.)
Just with Salamandars and buying the sergeant a combi-weapon, that's 5 more wounds before blows are struck that you didn't account for.
I won't even get into FW Chapter Tactics.

I wouldn't call those "big problems". I'd call them the pittances they threw the tac marines in C:SM.

Also, don't these gaunt squads and Ork mobs cost more than the GH we are sending them after?

Not omce you account for the Drop Pod. (Which will, realistically, cause no damage but not die.)
I made some basic assumptions with my math.
Grey Hunters always get to hit first, because of their Drop Pods.
Flamers always get 4 Hits.
Counter Assault and other LD-Based powers go off.
5+ Cover everywhere.
Charges always make it, and are never slowed by terrain.
Everyone makes it into combat. (Assuming the squad is about 12" wide, this will really only happen about half the time. With smaller squads, it's easier to get everyone in.)
No buffs from anywhere else. (Gants do a lot better with a Tervigon nearby, Sisters are far better with a Priest (Or Uriah) in thrme squad, but this is base troop comparison.)

The best advantage i see from it is the double special choice.
Mainly because it keeps the entire unit mobile.

Marines would have to skip the heavy or combat squad and leave him plus half the unit behind.

 Jackal wrote:
The best advantage i see from it is the double special choice.
Mainly because it keeps the entire unit mobile.

Marines would have to skip the heavy or combat squad and leave him plus half the unit behind.

Or use all 5 man squads.

It's really a combination of several things.

As mentioned before, much of the loathing still comes from memories of 5th Edition where SW were one point less than tacticals and better in the vast majority of ways. Nowadays, Sm are now cheaper but that doesn't solve all problems.

There are probably 2 reasons why GH are so disliked. For starters, they still have cheaper special weapons with the first being on discount and the second free. This is huge. Few want to have a heavy weapon as that requires combat squading them out (reducing their leadership, whatever the heavy weapon is firing at likely is either out of range for the bolter guns or is something bolters can't take down, immobile, 5 marines is easier to kill than 10 and can be painful in killpoints or even providing first blood). What about GH? They can specialize their weapons and for cheaper! Although they cost more at start, after buying 2 weapons (as per the standard picture of a tactical marine squad and equivelant for SW), GH end up being cheaper by a decent margin. Finally, and probably the final kick is the combination of counter-attack and CCW. Individually, these are fine. The problem is they are together. This means that when charged, they always have a minimum of 2 attacks per model (doubling that of tacticals) and on a 70-80% chance of getting 3 per model. That is a dramatic difference from other tactical marines whilst, thanks to the GH you will be taking, likely cheaper.

Now then, I like bloodletters and I'll use them. The chaos daemon codex has very few shooting options. Along with that, there is a noticeable lack of grenades relying on a vehicle to provide them. Now, I shall ignore that and assume that, for whatever reason, your GH aren't behind cover. Let's make things equivalent. So a full unit of SW is approximately 150 points plus SW (I don't know the price of flamers which I believe are entirely free?). Now then, this amounts to a unit of 15 bloodletters. Now then, SW get a turn to rapid fire at bloodletters. That is 6.52 bloodletters dead. 10 GH vs 8 Bloodletters

Daemon's turn. Bloodletters charge. GH get overwatch. Bloodletters lose about 3.5555 bloodletters (not going to round up this time to balance the .52 from last time). So now, before the charge there are 10 GH vs 5 Bloodletters. Close combat time, Bloodletters swing and manage to kill 4.444 (so let us say 4 GH). GH swing at the same time, likely passing their leadership roll to get counter-attack. That's 5 bloodletters killed. And with that, 6 GH waltz out of an entirely equal fight besting bloodletters at the job they do best.

To be fair, though, Bloodletters really, really suck...

Waaaghpower wrote:
To be fair, though, Bloodletters really, really suck...

Trust me I know

Still, I had hoped they could do okay against GH sense ap3 swords and all. Sadly it seems they still can't do anything

I was mainly using it as an example of an extremely assault oriented unit built to kill such units exactly taking it on. It's, simply put, just not appealing enough to assault the SW player. The shooting, the overwatch, and then the vast number of attacks in close combat is just too much for some CC units.

Or use all 5 man squads.

5 man squad shooting then running into combat has no real use if its a marine.
Needs numbers there to weigh down the attacks more.

 Jackal wrote:

Or use all 5 man squads.

5 man squad shooting then running into combat has no real use if its a marine.
Needs numbers there to weigh down the attacks more.

2 X 5 man squads are like a 10 man squad with 2 special weapons. I'd balk at fielding more than 30 tac marines anyway. They are super terrible.

Martel732 wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:
Um, Martel... Are a half dozen or so S4 WS4 attacks REALLY causing that much damage? Really?

Regular tac marines get 10 attacks when charged, GH get *30*. Last time I checked, 30-10 =/= HALF DOZEN. So yeah, they are causing that much damage. Because 20 attacks can cause a lot of damage.

Its still marines on marines, having only a 50/50 of hitting and wounding. I just can't get the special weapons shenanigans, which should and probably will get nerfed when they get their new codex.

 ace101 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:
Um, Martel... Are a half dozen or so S4 WS4 attacks REALLY causing that much damage? Really?

Regular tac marines get 10 attacks when charged, GH get *30*. Last time I checked, 30-10 =/= HALF DOZEN. So yeah, they are causing that much damage. Because 20 attacks can cause a lot of damage.

Its still marines on marines, having only a 50/50 of hitting and wounding. I just can't get the special weapons shenanigans, which should and probably will get nerfed when they get their new codex.

Actualy I expect we will just have to pay for both.

 StarTrotter wrote:
It's really a combination of several things.

As mentioned before, much of the loathing still comes from memories of 5th Edition where SW were one point less than tacticals and better in the vast majority of ways. Nowadays, Sm are now cheaper but that doesn't solve all problems.

There are probably 2 reasons why GH are so disliked. For starters, they still have cheaper special weapons with the first being on discount and the second free. This is huge. Few want to have a heavy weapon as that requires combat squading them out (reducing their leadership, whatever the heavy weapon is firing at likely is either out of range for the bolter guns or is something bolters can't take down, immobile, 5 marines is easier to kill than 10 and can be painful in killpoints or even providing first blood). What about GH? They can specialize their weapons and for cheaper! Although they cost more at start, after buying 2 weapons (as per the standard picture of a tactical marine squad and equivelant for SW), GH end up being cheaper by a decent margin. Finally, and probably the final kick is the combination of counter-attack and CCW. Individually, these are fine. The problem is they are together. This means that when charged, they always have a minimum of 2 attacks per model (doubling that of tacticals) and on a 70-80% chance of getting 3 per model. That is a dramatic difference from other tactical marines whilst, thanks to the GH you will be taking, likely cheaper.

Now then, I like bloodletters and I'll use them. The chaos daemon codex has very few shooting options. Along with that, there is a noticeable lack of grenades relying on a vehicle to provide them. Now, I shall ignore that and assume that, for whatever reason, your GH aren't behind cover. Let's make things equivalent. So a full unit of SW is approximately 150 points plus SW (I don't know the price of flamers which I believe are entirely free?). Now then, this amounts to a unit of 15 bloodletters. Now then, SW get a turn to rapid fire at bloodletters. That is 6.52 bloodletters dead. 10 GH vs 8 Bloodletters

Daemon's turn. Bloodletters charge. GH get overwatch. Bloodletters lose about 3.5555 bloodletters (not going to round up this time to balance the .52 from last time). So now, before the charge there are 10 GH vs 5 Bloodletters. Close combat time, Bloodletters swing and manage to kill 4.444 (so let us say 4 GH). GH swing at the same time, likely passing their leadership roll to get counter-attack. That's 5 bloodletters killed. And with that, 6 GH waltz out of an entirely equal fight besting bloodletters at the job they do best.

You forgot the winged daemon prince charging the squad as well.

Martel732 wrote:

 Jackal wrote:

Or use all 5 man squads.

5 man squad shooting then running into combat has no real use if its a marine.
Needs numbers there to weigh down the attacks more.

2 X 5 man squads are like a 10 man squad with 2 special weapons. I'd balk at fielding more than 30 tac marines anyway. They are super terrible.

I actually know somebody testing a 60 marine MSU list that relies on forcing an opponent to wipe out a 5 man squad at a time. He's done very well with it too, though that may be more a case of the guy running it winning than the list doing it for him. Anything that CAN wipe out that many marines quickly he just hides from until the last two turns to mitigate their shooting

DOOMONYOU wrote:

 StarTrotter wrote:
It's really a combination of several things.

As mentioned before, much of the loathing still comes from memories of 5th Edition where SW were one point less than tacticals and better in the vast majority of ways. Nowadays, Sm are now cheaper but that doesn't solve all problems.

There are probably 2 reasons why GH are so disliked. For starters, they still have cheaper special weapons with the first being on discount and the second free. This is huge. Few want to have a heavy weapon as that requires combat squading them out (reducing their leadership, whatever the heavy weapon is firing at likely is either out of range for the bolter guns or is something bolters can't take down, immobile, 5 marines is easier to kill than 10 and can be painful in killpoints or even providing first blood). What about GH? They can specialize their weapons and for cheaper! Although they cost more at start, after buying 2 weapons (as per the standard picture of a tactical marine squad and equivelant for SW), GH end up being cheaper by a decent margin. Finally, and probably the final kick is the combination of counter-attack and CCW. Individually, these are fine. The problem is they are together. This means that when charged, they always have a minimum of 2 attacks per model (doubling that of tacticals) and on a 70-80% chance of getting 3 per model. That is a dramatic difference from other tactical marines whilst, thanks to the GH you will be taking, likely cheaper.

Now then, I like bloodletters and I'll use them. The chaos daemon codex has very few shooting options. Along with that, there is a noticeable lack of grenades relying on a vehicle to provide them. Now, I shall ignore that and assume that, for whatever reason, your GH aren't behind cover. Let's make things equivalent. So a full unit of SW is approximately 150 points plus SW (I don't know the price of flamers which I believe are entirely free?). Now then, this amounts to a unit of 15 bloodletters. Now then, SW get a turn to rapid fire at bloodletters. That is 6.52 bloodletters dead. 10 GH vs 8 Bloodletters

Daemon's turn. Bloodletters charge. GH get overwatch. Bloodletters lose about 3.5555 bloodletters (not going to round up this time to balance the .52 from last time). So now, before the charge there are 10 GH vs 5 Bloodletters. Close combat time, Bloodletters swing and manage to kill 4.444 (so let us say 4 GH). GH swing at the same time, likely passing their leadership roll to get counter-attack. That's 5 bloodletters killed. And with that, 6 GH waltz out of an entirely equal fight besting bloodletters at the job they do best.

You forgot the winged daemon prince charging the squad as well.

Except the winged daemon prince costs 195 points at the bare minimum, brings in a heavy/hq choice, and is notorious for only working if you make it costs hundreds of points (in reality the pricing is 195+rewards+psyker levels (likely ml2 or 3?). This is assuming taking no rewards, no psyker levels, no armor, and opting for the cheapest daemon rule. So don't start that arms race And at that point you deploy your Runepriest and ID everything to death

nobody wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Jackal wrote:

Or use all 5 man squads.

5 man squad shooting then running into combat has no real use if its a marine.
Needs numbers there to weigh down the attacks more.

2 X 5 man squads are like a 10 man squad with 2 special weapons. I'd balk at fielding more than 30 tac marines anyway. They are super terrible.

I actually know somebody testing a 60 marine MSU list that relies on forcing an opponent to wipe out a 5 man squad at a time. He's done very well with it too, though that may be more a case of the guy running it winning than the list doing it for him. Anything that CAN wipe out that many marines quickly he just hides from until the last two turns to mitigate their shooting

Eldar can beat this list pretty easily, as it has no way to silence their guns. About three turns of uncontested Eldar fire will kill around 50 marines. That's not enough left to cover objectives.

The problem with GH has been the no brainer upgrades, a Phil Kelly trademark (internal balance? pah! Brought to you by you-never-see-a-venom-with-only-one-venom-cannon)

Banner plus mark of wulfen. Up to 8 rending attacks hidden in a squad is bad enough, but when you reroll ALL ones for pretty much near everything, it gets worse. Especially for how cheap those upgrades are.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
The problem with GH has been the no brainer upgrades, a Phil Kelly trademark (internal balance? pah! Brought to you by you-never-see-a-venom-with-only-one-venom-cannon)

Banner plus mark of wulfen. Up to 8 rending attacks hidden in a squad is bad enough, but when you reroll ALL ones for pretty much near everything, it gets worse. Especially for how cheap those upgrades are.

To build on what you just said, it gets truly silly when one combines a Wolf Banner with Terminator Armour. In the example from earlier in the thread, if the Grey Hunters had a Terminator Sergeant the Orks wouldn't kill ANYONE the first turn, which means that it's 8 Grey Hunters and 1 Wolf Guard vs. 13 Orks (not even taking into account the higher level of damage cuased by rerolling 1's) turn 2 (assuming combi-flamer on the Wolf Guard). There just is nothing a Tactical Squad can do hope to ever get close to that sort of strength. Nothing.

"But we pay for it!" you say? Not enough, I say. If I paid 100 points to buy an Assault 6 60" Str 8 AP1 Melta weapon for everyone in my army (as in, 100 points total), would that be balanced? I pay for it, after all...

People just know that the grass is ALWAYS greener on your neighbours yard.

Thats pretty much it.